Br187=sounds Of 185

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by KoeleKoen, Oct 13, 2021.

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  1. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    You have to have the right to record the sounds. As said above, you can't just capture something and then sell it for profit, the person making the sound/image/experience, has to agree to it being monitised. And if you think about it, why would they? Someone is going to sell a product (DTG) in larger volumes because the sound is more realistic. Sound that was captured from your particular assets without your consent...

    It also falls next to the licencing because although the locos are DB locos, they were made by Bombardier, which might not be a party to the DB licence...although i notice the wordmark is on the front of the 187. Is the sound of a Bombardier made and DB owned loco the property of the listener, Bombardier or DB, or some combination?
     
  2. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You would be perfect in a dictatorial regime, i bet that the rules are right at home in North Korea. I think there are numerous posts on how licensing works on this forum.

    The train driver or a person can record whatever he wants and own full rights on the recording. Check youtube for thousands of cab videos for example.

    I like how you keep trying to find excuses against people that work hard and offer free and high quality mods for the community. Keep it up ,
    Also i didn't know you work for DB's legal team questioning people of consent for creating audio recordings. Further more you are also questioning a real life train driver that created the recording on his locomotive (147).
     
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  3. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry for the confusion but i did understand that you where a part at least of VR and also created the TS BR101 for VR among others. Sorry for the confusion again :)
     
  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In general it isn't intellectual property at all; one can copyright "creative works" but not merely functional things. However, it is possible for something to be trademarked by any of the above; DB (the TOC) have trademarked the ICE3, and Hitachi (the manufacturers) have trademarked the Class 800. This doesn't happen automatically like copyright does, but by affirmative act (registering a trademark with the appropriate government office).
     
  5. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    So bascially skyhook lied and used covid as a cheap excuse. Frankly skyhook doesn't deserve a penny for this. It's a shame dtg probably won't hold them to account either. At least rivet has shown that it's willing to improve with west cornwall. If this is what skyhook will continue to do then I'm not sure they should continue to sell dlc's.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Neither can i
     
  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    North Korea, as a Marxist state, doesn't recognize property rights. That is a hallmark of free societies.

    I like how you keep trying to find excuses for getting Free Stuff which may be someone else's property, the law be damned.
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Could they legally use those sound files?
     
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Is that even a question.
     
  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, DB Netz owns all of the trackage in Germany, so the issue of potential trespass arises; also, because the recordings actually came from a 147, and I believe DB owns all of those.

    Note that SHG/DTG would have to have *positive evidence* that the sound recordings were obtained legally; the burden of proof is on them.
     
  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  12. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Unless Bombardier gives you its sound recordings for the locomotive and you use them commercially there are no legal issues. I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble because they have recorded and used the sound of a train or locomotive. As the 3d model is something palpable certain , the sound is not and neither it can be recreated on a 1:1 scale neither proved to be the same.
     
  13. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Remind me of why the plane in BML is so badly modelled?
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You would need to be able to show permission in writing from the owner of whatever airport you were making the recording in, unless you were in the terminal (from where getting a decent recording would be very tough). Or Ryan Air (etc) if you somehow got into the cockpit. In the case of a train, there is no way to get a full set of loco sounds unless you are either in the cab, or in the railyard. And you have to be able to prove you were there with permission.
     
  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Good catch. To avoid IP claims from Boeing and Airbus.
     
  16. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Lol, people here claiming that the manufacturer or railway company has copyright ownership over the sound a train makes... Ridiculous. Imagine Mazda going on YouTube and copyrighting millions of "RX7 brap brap sound compilation" videos. You can have copyright over creative works, like music, melodies or speech, but not over a goddamn functional sound. If you could have, then noone could make car engines as they all sound the same, or noone could make trains as they all make clack-clack noises going over junctions...
     
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think skyhook would've gotten in trouble either for using sounds that they were offered so this whole legal notion brought up by some is just ridiculous. Shame they used covid as a cheap excuse too. If this was the case for every train in the world, then railfans recording trains wouldn't be a thing. Modding in ts probably wouldn't be a thing either since a manufacturer would go after modders putting a train's audio in the game.
     
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  18. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Agree. Even a 3D model can be used without any license issues as long it has some minor differences from the real thing and does not use any clear branding, imagine how it would be to require a license for something so less defined and common as sound.

    Also this thread is about the BR 187 so please stop talking about nonsense , if someone is feeling like a lawyer go on the appropriate forum and embarrass yourself there.
     
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  19. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

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    All replaced sounds heard in my last video were recorded at train stations - and the station rules from DB Station & Service do not prohibit audio recordings like in this case, only commercial photos, video- and TV recordings without permission (see 2.6). If you, for some reason, really want proof that I recorded these sounds at stations and not in yards/cabs/whatever, I have recorded the sounds with video. I won't talk about copyrighted train sounds (like, really?), that should be obvious. Also, keep in mind that I am German, so German law will apply to me and my work, so it might be different from the laws you have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  20. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    To end this pretty pointless discussion: Yes. At least in his video he says that everything he did in terms of providing material happend with consent. So SHG definitley had the chance to use the sound recordings. Of course we don't know how good those recordings are. But in his video he says that he recorded the sounds in the way SHG wanted him so record it.
     
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  21. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This makes me super sad. I haven't bought a single Skyhook DLC (and I originally wanted both as I'm familiar with real-life counterparts for them), I was cautious after Rivet. And I really wanted to get Horseshoe with GEVOs... but as long as those who bought 187 and Cane Creek won't get them fixed... pass.

    So hear, hear, Skyhook. You fix those two DLCs, I buy them and Horseshoe no discount needed. Otherwise not a single purchase from you. Show us your customer relations.
     
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  22. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to explain yourself to someone that has no right to ask justification. You could record sounds by traveling under the train, or traveling on the loco roof with your toque on the catenary, its no ones business to ask you how you did something.

    Just continue your fantastic work and ignore any explanations request from people that lack both manners and common sense.
     
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  23. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    About the plane model... Look up Project wingman on steam, real plane models, just removed logos and real names, no legal problems, also scs, in ets2 there's a 186 driving about, does scs have a license for that from bombardier?
     
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  24. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    In ETS you also have TGV and a lot of other trains. Also all traffic cars are based on real life ones without the real life logo.
     
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  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't claiming that; you need to read more carefully. In the case of sounds the issue is whether they were obtained legally.
     
  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Untrue.
     
  27. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I think we should also talk about the AFB because it seems to be a real mess.

    Go to minute 13:30 and see what happens when I set the speed from 40 to 90. Also note that once activated, the AFB cannot be deactivated. Or maybe everything must be set from the onboard computer?



    Can anyone tell me if DTG/Skyhook are working to fix the problem or should we have some good modder do this too?
     
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  28. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

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    Yep, that happens to me every time I get a large increase in line speed - it's like I'm running on grease...
     
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  29. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand how they could have put a highly buggy product like this up for sale. I just feel embarrassed for them. Now I understand why Matt skipped the launch on Youtube.
     
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  30. VolvoB10M

    VolvoB10M Guest

    I think recording rights depends on the operator/land owner. Network Rail don't seem to mind people photographing as long as it is done safely and without obstruction to other passengers along with heritage railways. However there are privately run light rail systems that do not seem allow it without a license, namely Tyne & Wear Metro and more recently Metrolink (who were fine with it under Stagecoach ownership but apparently not anymore). Manchester Victoria is a bit of a grey area to my understanding since you are on Network Rail platforms but cannot technically photograph anything without catching parts of the arena building. I reckon if you only see Northern Rail & Network Rail staff around you should be ok, but if arena security are around just head over to Salford Central instead. I don't know about the rules for DB.
     
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  31. LWDAdnane

    LWDAdnane Well-Known Member

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    What a thread. With some of the opinions on here, AP should have a warrant for their arrest and a worldwide manhunt going on for the sounds that they've recorded/released.
     
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  32. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Talking of sounds, there is now an outstandig soundmod: https://rail-sim.de/forum/filebase/entry/7750-el-shg-db-br187-soundmod/

    It's hard to decide. I don't want to give SHG money for that, but i want to have this loco so bad! I think I'll wait for a patch where they at least fix PZB and LZB, maybe I'll buy it on a sale then. But just because this sound mod exists.
     
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  33. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Not only them, every other company or person that recorded sound or video off any vehicle should be imprisoned. Can you imagine what kind of people could promote such thing on these forums? Insane stuff something you might see in those dark dystopia SCI FI movies.
    Thank good this is just some twisted thinking and the current laws in EU are not a follow up to Kim Jong-un creations
     
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  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It isn't a matter of criminal law, but civil. And no corporation bothers sending expensive lawyers out to sue penniless individuals.* But suing commercial firms, that's a different matter; they can and they do. Google "product displacement," the practice of covering up identifiable brands in movies and TV shows to avoid getting a nasty cease-and-desist from somebody's attorneys.

    *Actually, on occasion they do do it in terrorem, although obviously it's a money-losing proposition
     
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  35. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

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  36. TKessel

    TKessel Well-Known Member

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    THANK YOU SO MUCH!

    I didn't buy they 187 yet (and I will wait for a sale), as I don't like to give Skyhook games the money for this mess! You (and the other members who are fixing it) would deserve the money instead.

    However, fantastic! Release thursday, 4 days later a lot of fixes and already the first Sound-mod is out. That's how it should be, in the meantime only blabla from Skyhook.
     
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  37. JBViper

    JBViper Well-Known Member

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  38. neddyie116

    neddyie116 Active Member

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  39. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Wow, the 187 feels so much better to drive now. You did an amazing job on this and incredibly quick too.
    Why can't Dovetail get a horn recording like this? Literally all German horns so far have been quite a bit off. Even though it's not perfect, yours at least sounds like a European horn should and not like a toy.
     
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  40. josuesleyer

    josuesleyer Member

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    They did it ugly 2x and it's still the same people who are developing Horseshoe Curve: Altoona . God help us!
     
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  41. josuesleyer

    josuesleyer Member

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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  42. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Give me the Sounds for Xbox DTG
     
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  43. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

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    Elena has her own sound mod out now as well:https://rail-sim.de/forum/filebase/entry/7750-el-shg-db-br187-soundmod/
     
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  44. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

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    Which one is the best sound mod? Looks like there are two of them.

    We also need a driver camera update. It is not in center compared to the seat, and a bit too high. Can't we have adjustable driver seats as a standard, at least on locos that has this in real life?
     
  45. w2sjw

    w2sjw Active Member

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    I'm not knocking the hard work by irFlouz at all, but I like Elena's a bit better. The latest version of EP mod linked above has the seat position fixed.
     
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  46. conniethunder

    conniethunder Well-Known Member

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    Isn't there an option in one of the .ini files to adjust default viewing position?
     
  47. Oystein

    Oystein Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I found the camera fix, how could the release a such wrong camera position? :|

    I'll test Elena's pack too, irFlouz sound mod was a lot better than the broken br 185 sounds.
     
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  48. victor.malhard

    victor.malhard New Member

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    Thanks for the mods, guys. Skyhook's incompetence is incredible. I hope they can never sell their products again. At least I don't buy anything from them anymore.
     
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  49. irFlouz

    irFlouz Active Member

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  50. bsrdj

    bsrdj Member

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    cant get any of the new sounds to work on the 187 put it into the DLC like all my other mods are found? they all work great
     
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