Dtg - Why Aren't You Holding Third Parties To Account?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by LucasLCC, Oct 14, 2021.

  1. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    It's time for yet another post on the rather pitiful work released by two of the third parties, however this time I'm aiming my post at the publisher, DTG.

    Over the past 18 months we have seen six pieces of DLC released by Third Parties (four by Rivet and two by Skyhook). Not a single one of these DLCs has met the same quality that DTG release. They have come with major bugs, including:

    - Dodgy or broken physics (such as Arosa being able to accelerate quicker than a rollercoaster, or the wheel slip on the 483 even in Shunt)
    - Major issues with the modelling (Particularly Cane Creek and the rather tall AC4400W).
    - Timetable issues (Arosa is impossible to keep to, the DB BR 187 brings no interesting game play, the 1938 Stock has a timetable that is reduced more than even the normal Bakerloo timetable).
    - Sounds (These are continuously appalling on all of the releases. The 187 uses the wrong sound set, Arosa the coaches sound like shopping trolleys plummeting to their doom down a steep hill).
    - Safety Systems (The 187 doesn't even have fully functioning safety systems. How was this allowed to release as a paid DLC?)

    Whilst some bugs slip into release (we understand, no one is perfect), the level of bugs is far greater than what DTG release, and the quality is much worse. None of these products should have made it to release with this level of bugs.

    This is dragging the TSW 2 brand down. It only takes a player to buy the 187, realise how bad it is and then assume the rest of the DLC is of a similar quality.

    It's DTGs responsibility as the publisher to ensure that the DLC that they sell is of sufficient quality. And if something that Rivet or Skyhook produces is of poor quality it should be rejected and the developer told to improve.

    It's also DTGs responsibility to ensure that these DLC are updated. Neither Rivet nor Skyhook should be allowed to release any future DLC until they've sorted out the mess they've left.
     
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  2. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the Update part. It is obvious that neither Skyhook nor Rivet Games are able to fix quite central bugs and quirks because they are "small". In that case DTG really should lend a hand on there to ensure that basic functions of Locos and Routes are working.
     
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  3. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I can handle bad sounds, I can even handle a loco riding too high on its bogies or graphical issues meaning wheels appear to turn.

    What I cant handle are those things which affect my ability to run a loco in service close to the timetable and within speed limit in a prototypical fashion as for me personally these are the things that matter the most and positively or negatively affect my enjoyment. So things like the below are red lines for me and will put me off handing over my hard earned cash to DTG.

    Now its either a case these 3rd party developers dont want my custom or it is a case that they simply dont actually take time to talk to people to see whats important in a DLC. Obviously everyone will have a slightly different opinion on what matters to them and what their red lines are but I dont think mine are particularly extreme or demanding.
     
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  4. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with most of your comments, a few of them are a bit uncorrect:

    This is purely subjective to your point of view. It's valid to say and feel this way. But important to note, that other people may like the gameplay. I for example think it's quiet interesting. Especially when talking about substitutions.

    Rivet already explained, why: The 38 stock doesn't have the same power as the 72stock. Of coure the 72 stock has other (improved) physics. With the 38stock you probably wouldn't be able to handle the timetable.
     
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  5. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I bought the 187 and will stick to it entirely because it brings variety to the routes and it looks different than the TRAXX 2. I really wanted it to be my new main freight loco ingame for german routes but man, it really sucks its bugged that hard.
     
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  6. pinter

    pinter Member

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    I was looking forward to picking up the DB 187. I only have two German routes (Köln-Aachen and Nahverkehr Dresden) so I was happy to see a new loco I could use on both. I can deal with the sounds being copied since I'm not familiar with German trains and most electric locos sound annoying to me. But I have really started to enjoy the challenge of playing the German routes with most of the safety systems (I'm still figuring them all out), so not having those work means a big loss of game play for me. Hopefully those end up getting fixed.
     
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  7. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the LZB bugs are easy to avoid by not using LZB. Also, Dresden-Riesa doesnt have LZB. Regarding the PZB bugs, its just visually, not really functionbreaking stuff.
     
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  8. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    So just avoid issues by simply not playing the game? Sounds reasonable.
     
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  9. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    This is not what I said. Dont misquote me. I said: Dont activate LZB as it is faulty/buggy. (You would do that irl as well). PZB is working fine except for a visual glitch affecting the MFD. That LZB bug is a huge issue, but not entirely gamebreaking.
     
  10. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If your primary enjoyment of the games from driving it prototypically with all safety systems in place then disabling LZB is going to reduce your enjoyment and satisfaction of the game. Had the primary route for this loco been Dresden or another German route without LZB I could have excused them but the only route that gives you additional layers does have LZB so its not unreasonable to expect it would have correct and working features that relate to that route.

    Everyone is different and each of us have our own list of whats important to themselves and if switching off LZB isnt going to reduce your fun then I am sincerely happy for you, for those of us who do find this a red line then we are able to voice our views providing it is done constructively without resulting to name calling or calling the lawyers in.
     
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  11. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    But it's like saying "just drive with the HUD on" regarding the speedometer issue on the Bostron Sprinter. There is a reason I prefer driving HUDless and by watching the actual speed display in the cab - so I suppose there is a reason people prefer driving with LZB on as well. I'm not familiar with it, but people keep praising how good gameplay it is.

    Sure, technically it's not gamebreaking, but for those who like using safety systems, it is, as it can be a dealbreaker for playing or not. For example, I havn't been playing Bostron Sprinter since the last update broke the speedometer in the F40PH and the cab car, as it's a deal breaker for me too. So I suppose it's the same for many people regarding this LZB issues as well.
     
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  12. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Here I'm referring to the new services that this DLC brings. This DLC finally could have given us the ability to use the many freight loops on the line and have ICE services overtake us (like in reality). Sadly this option wasn't explored and we've ended up with more than the same.

    Yes, the stock is lower in performance. However to cut services out of an already cut back timetable is not a solution.

    Piffle. That's zero excuse to release a DLC in this state.
     
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  13. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Dont get me wrong, not being able to use LZB sucks. But to me its not a dealbraker.
     
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  14. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    This is the part I don't understand as well. Just because the '38 stock is slower than the '72 one, why there has to be less trains on the line for the '38 stock, when the current timetable already has pretty big gaps between trains?
     
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  15. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Bugs are small annoying errors that creep unknown into programs and make them behave in a way that is not intended. Most of the faults the OP lists (wrong sounds, impossible timetables, dodgy physics, missing safety systems) are not bugs. They are major errors that are plain to see and should never have been in the released product.
     
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  16. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    but if they did that, they would have to change one or two times. You know that is way to much effort for them. I would have liked the same as 72 if not more. now that would be impressive.
     
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  17. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    As someone who just got to the forums today after a couple of days... 187 having bad sounds from the original 185.2, non-functional LZB... I'm starting to think it's just a new 3D model thrown on that loco... would explain how it can so easily substitute banking on MSB.
     
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  18. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    New model but existing script and sounds appears to be the case. I can live with the sounds, because I don't know what the real thing sounds like, but I at least want it to perform and work like it should.
     
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  19. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I've heard the sounds are from the 185.2 prior to BRD improvements... and those were bad, no matter what reference you had :D
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And yet TSG with all of two people manages to release completely polished, well-modeled locos without any of these issues.
     
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  21. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    But different issues then, maybe :D I'm pretty sure you will find all of them in only one day.
     
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  22. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is though, that your work comes across very solid & passionate, nothing is going to be perfect, but what you’ve done with a good bit of the German rolling stock is what makes the German content in the game so popular, you’ve easily delivered us one of the best locos that TSW as a franchise has ever seen, and all the other stock you’ve worked on has been top notch stuff, and that makes the smaller niggles much less noticeable.

    When we get told that you’ve been working on something, I think I speak for the community when I say we are instilled with a high degree of confidence in the product.
     
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  23. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Not to be too mean to the other two current 3rd parties, but even if bugs appear on your DLCs, you only need to fix one or two to beat them completely :D
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    So far I haven't seen any complaints about the BR 101
     
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  25. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think the following should happen

    DTG need to start coming down harder, have a new qa system for 3rd parties or take their license rights to the dev kit away. I mean if licensing is one of the keys to releasing you things use the dev kit access to your advantage and sell it to someone more careful in their releases.

    The 3rd parties need to do what DTG have done with some of their products and challenge their development time and if needed elongate a little more if that can be done without financially crippling them.

    Its absolutely tiresome seeing everyone blaming each other . We've had no need of streams recently where Matt, Sam, Nat etc are thrown under the bus because of faceless individuals who hide behind the numbers. The streams should be a celebration of their excellent efforts (for all involved) , not "here we go again" because of this reason , that reason or the accountants. I thought rivets last 38 stream was dismal but fair play to Jasper_Rivet for coming on last night instead. Id hate anyone to leave their jobs because they're sick of being thrown under the bus again by others.

    Fundamental, I'd like to see all benefit from game and succeed. I will openly hold my hand up and say I haven't bought a rivet dlc yet and I've been a critic of some releases but I'll also admit I'm hoping Cornwall will be my first and I'm excited by it (subject to what I see tonight). Equally I have not bought a skyhook one but have most DTG because of the release and ongoing support of them
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  26. MatsH

    MatsH Active Member

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    I would like to have the relationship Developer - Publisher - Customer clarified.

    Does it work in the same way as with books, where the author write the book and the publisher then publishes/sells it, and in the end pay the author accordingly depending on how many books are sold?
    Because if it does I believe that we (the customers) should direct our bugreports to the publisher, and that it is the publishers task to to take it up with the developer and ensure that bugs are being fixed.

    I know in the stream last night we were directed to take up the bugs with the developer directly, but is that really the correct way to go about it?

    Basically it comes down to this: Who is the one selling the DLC to me in the store? Developer or Publisher?
    The one I'm giving my money to I believe is responsible for handling any issues I might have with the product.

    This is not a complaint in any way, but a genuine interest in knowing how this setup work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  27. pinter

    pinter Member

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    Finally got a chance to listen to the live stream from yesterday. Sounds like Skyhook is working on an update that will fix the safety systems. When that comes out I'll pick up the loco. I do like the look of it, kind of a shipping container with cab ends.
     
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  28. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Thats my thinking, its a good looking loco and personally I can live with the sound being a copy of another loco, if they update that then happy days, if not I will still get a lot of enjoyment running it.

    The only thing I really wanted was to see some service modes not running end to end and utilising the other yards/sidings on the Koln Aachen line. Had there been some variety there I could have been tempted to pick it up even with broken safety systems.
     
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  29. MatsH

    MatsH Active Member

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    I like the DB BR 187 as well, even if it would be nice if they could at least update it with the newer BR 185-sounds.
    It's a nice looking model and cab. A lot of the sounds in the cab are also really good, like switches and levers.

    There seem to be a problem with the brakepipe-gauge as well (at least I think that's what it is) where it always reads 6+ bars, no matter how much brake you apply. That and the saftey systems need fixing for a start.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  30. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    If you run it with the weak field flag up it is about the same performance as the 72 stock. Its brakes are mostly as good except for the occasional fade away.
     
  31. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I really don’t get peoples obsession with timetables.
    Gameplay, visual accuracy and physics are far more important, and if timetables are massaged to fit, so be it.

    And if the choice is Skyhook releasing a loco with incorrect sounds versus no loco; the majority of players who have never seen it, or heard it real life, would rather have it than not.
     
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  32. Oldcustard

    Oldcustard Member

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    Perhaps to you, but people play this game for different reasons. To me, immersive timetables and signalling are hugely important. Not to downplay the importance of accurate sounds, physics and visuals, but to dismiss timetables as not important doesn't necessarily represent everyone
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Surely if the physics are right then the timetable could be accurate?
    I would agree with Oldcustard, for me seeing a realistic timetable is as important (if not more in some ways) than gameplay or visuals (I would add sounds, but then I usually have music on when playing)
    And to clarify what I mean, a timetable should be realistic with adequate time to set off, keep to speed limits and brake properly rather than driving everywhere like your butt's on fire and braking so that passengers all end up at the front door. Preferably real life timetables should be used where such things are available
     
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  34. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I'm exactly the same. I don't mind if some artistic liberties are taken to create the timetable and make it work, but a timetable should be:

    - Similar to the real thing.
    - Possible to keep on time.
    - Provides adequate set up allowance.

    I wouldn't say it's a big ask...
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    My theory on this is that unless the train is cold and dark (when all lights would likely be off anyway) the train should be left with reds on both ends and the cabs shut down, as in how it would be left IRL
    There's no real reason why a train at a station wouldn't have reds on what was the front as surely the last driver would shut the cab down and put the appropriate lights and safety systems on before leaving
    Especially true if it's somewhere out at the end of a branch which surely the person who drove it there would have been ME anyway?
     
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  36. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    TSW could do with being a bit smarter in this regards:

    - Taking over a train midway through the journey should mean the lights are set up, and you just need to key in and go.
    - Taking over a train at a terminus should involve having to set up the lights etc.
    - Taking a train from the depot, the first service of the day, or where there's a significant gap between the last service and this service should mean the unit will need a full start up procedure including engines on etc.
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Mid way - agreed. Everything should be set up
    Terminus - all lights should be red, both ends (as applicable) in "hot shutdown" condition
    Depot - yup, cold start would be preferable (and cold shutdown on ECS to depot if applicable)
     
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  38. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Do you want realistic achievable timetables or accurate timetables?

    It's been proven time and time again that some accurate timetables are not achievable especially in the UK. Not many years ago the biggest timetable change in the north of England resulted in around 4-5 conflicts an hour around Leeds station alone which made the Northern trains and TPE timetables impossible to achieve.
     
  39. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Yup. I've put the Durham Coast Line timetable into the TS1 route, and you really have to hammer the 156 to stick to it.
     
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    At least you'd see something other than a green light...
    Yes, I know that timetable's are often IRL not achievable, and part of the issue in game is that the AP are tied in part to keeping to said timetable rather than accurate driving. Personally I think there ought to be a "default drive" timetable mode where points count, and an "accurate drive" timetable mode where things can go wrong and the only "point" is to get to the end without hitting anything or making your passengers throw up

    The default mode would fulfil DTG's wish to have a "pick it up and drive" style for the non "hardcore train fans" and the second mode we could make as manic as you like...
     
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  41. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    The timetables on a number of TSW routes are neither accurate nor achievable. Arosa being the biggest example of this.

    The examples you've given are timetables where red signals will cause delays. This is very different to where the station to station time is too short to achieve even with a completely clear run.
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Especially since all they have to do is base it on the real-life times! (Like Joe did with BML). The problem with many routes' timetables is that instead of doing that, they have used (approximately) real-life departure times to start, but then paired that with arrivals generated by AI trains going unrealistically fast, and hence the resultant timetables demand the player drive like an AI train, which often can't be done.
     
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  43. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to point out that the Arosa timetable is completely borked because it's not the real one, they just put the starting time in and then TSW calculates it on a straight route. This obviously doesn't work here. Moreover, they did not correctly account for the time needed to turn the train around as the real one is a bidirectional EMU, not loco-hauled like they simulated.
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Which makes me wonder about their automatic testing systems (they've mentioned this a few times on streams)

    When they're testing are ALL trains being driven as AI, ie with only the first car or loco counting for speed limit transitions, low physics etc? Or is the player train being driven (by the AI) as a player train would be with full consist count and full physics, but sped up?
     
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  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Which does question their testing system... if even a basic run works out five minutes longer than timetabled surely someone noticed that in play?
     
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  46. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    They probably did.
     
  47. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Money. As long as the routes sell reasonable well DTG executive leadership is probably happy enough taking their cut. Let's be honest here, and I'm sure Sam would silently agree, historically it's not like DTG higher ups have every really cared about negative public opinion or sentiment and reviews, (if they did, the company wouldn't still reinforce the same reputation for buggy, unfinished DLC that they've had for years) so I would imagine there is little that would force DTG to do much of anything, provided sales numbers are ok.
     
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  48. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Bingo. Most of the bugs people complain about them not catching were almost certainly caught. But it's nearly impossible for ANY game to ship completely bug free and to fix all the bugs that QA finds. Leadership ultimately makes the decision of how much time and effort they're willing to allow be spent to fix the issues discovered in QA, and with DTG releases, and especially the 3rd party stuff, it seems like release schedules win out over bug fixing pretty much every time. So they know about most of the issues when they release the DLC, but fixes for them either weren't prioritized ahead of other stuff QA found and that were fixed that we will never know about, or leadership simply refused to provide enough time to fix them.
     
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The best weapon in our (the customer’s) arsenal is still the Steam refund button. Use this with a forthright and honest description of why the DLC was unsatisfactory and maybe, just maybe, they might start to call DTG on the quality before stuff hits the store.
     
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  50. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think this is generally good advice. How many steam reviews do you see where the person has put in tens or hundreds of hours into the TSW DLC and then leaves a ranting negative review? Dude, you paid for it, used the hell out of it, and NOW are going to tell them it sucks and not to buy?! If you feel strongly that the product is no good and not worth it, then refund it and refuse to buy DLC that isn't up to snuff. But if you keep buying it every time and then leave a negative review...you're not going to change anything.
     
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