Why Doesn't The Uk Offer Double Decker Trains?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Horizelux, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. Horizelux

    Horizelux Well-Known Member

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    I love the UK railways, and I especially like the diversity of rolling stock. However, not once have I ever seen a British double decker train. Germany, America, France, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Austria etc have a lot of double decker rolling stock, mostly used for commuter services. Is there some sort of limitation with the height of tunnels, bridges, lack of demand, etc?


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    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  2. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    In the UK, the tunnels are too low. They won’t fit!
     
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  3. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    This, in a nutshell. Our loading gauge is the main prevention. We did dabble with them in the 60's though
     
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's also the case with overhead clearance for many overpasses, bridges etc. Every nation's RR have a 'loading gauge', the distance beside and over the track inside which rolling stock has to fit. Since Britain was the first nation to build railways in a serious way, the loading gauge adopted was conceived to Victorian standards and has ever since been a constraint on British trains (the Class 59 and 66, for example, couldn't use the SD40 base loco but had to be re-arranged and re-bodied to fit).

    A related issue is found in Switzerland; standard pantographs can't be used because they exceed the rather limited Swiss overhead loading gauge.
     
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  5. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, double-decker trains would require a lot of infrastructure to be rebuilt to accommodate it.
     
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  6. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if HS2 is being built to higher loading gauge, anyone know? I guess it doesn't matter that much because on the existing lines they'd have the same issues as now, right?
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    HS1 is built to French loading gauge to accommodate Eurostar. I don't know about HS2.
     
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  8. Trainmania100

    Trainmania100 Well-Known Member

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    If you didn't mind lying down on the over head racks you probably could call them double decker
     
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If we did have double deck trains they would only be able to carry small children around. There’s no demand for that, so we didn’t bother.
     
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  10. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there will be a time when some routes might justify lowering of the rail bed through their tunnels in order to fit larger/higher-capacity trains in. With third-rail it's not like you have to worry about different heights to the catenaries for pantographs depending on the rolling stock.

    The Ten Tunnels Deviation famously had the track bed lowered in 1978 to allow the then-new double-deck V-set intercity EMUs to reach Lithgow, and this was in a tunnel set carved in to the side of a cliff in the Blue Mountains in the 1900s.
    Ironically, 8 of these 10 tunnels now have to be scraped slightly because the replacement for the V-set is ~100mm wider (some platforms need to be tweaked too)...
     
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  11. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, it's not just the tunnels. It's stations, bridges (those trains travel on and under both), catenary wires, depots -everything really. And that's only height, don't forget the UK has narrower loading gauge than most other networks too. They'd have to spend billions and still end up with the problem of having to buy bespoke models.
     
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  12. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case, then why does Eurostar run on standard gauge UK railway? It would be out of gauge and the trains wouldn't be able to run to their depot at Temple Mills.

    No it's being built to standard UK loading gauge as the HS2 trains will be required to run on parts of the network that not specifically built for HS2.
     
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  13. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree it isn't a small task, and not possible in a lot of locations, hence why I was suggesting it might initially happen on a localised level. Although, whilst there are independent operators, the tracks and easements are still Network Rail controlled right? That'd make it harder...
     
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  14. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    They are no longer the responsibility of Network Rail as it technically no longer exists from 2023, but changes are already beginning to happen. All track and infrastructure belongs to Great British Railways from 2023.
     
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  15. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Again though, on a localized level doesn't really work. You have to have a certain breadth to the reconstruction else you'll have nowhere to send these larger trains off that small section, and it's wasteful to have trains that can only run on one localised area. The most likely adaptations would probably be around the London end of the HS1 line, but that would be no small feat given wher it is located.
     
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  16. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Still, having the infrastructure owned by someone who isn't the operator naturally makes it harder for these sort of things to come about
     
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  17. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    I think you're both right about Eurostar fwiw - it's built to UIC GC gauge but the trains have to travel on the regular UK network after somewhere like Barking, which is why they're a unique model and not just a standard TGV. I suppose they did this either in the hope the London bit could be eventually modernised, or perhaps some plan to run TGVs to Ashford?

    I've just looked HS2 up and it seems to actually also be UIC GC gauge - the planning document has provision for 'captive' and 'classic compatible' trainsets, meaning there will be some that cannot leave the HS2 lines as far as I can tell?
     
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  18. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    HS1 runs all the way to St Pancras, the Eurostar trains have to travel over standard UK railway to enter/leave their depot at Orient Way (not Temple Mills as stated earlier). Class 373's used to run on the old UK network through South London when operating out of Waterloo until HS1 opened the London end of the route, when all services transferred to St Pancras. So the UIC GC gauge must be very similar or identical to standard gauge.

    Both Class 373 and 374 are standard loading gauge wheelsets, which is 4 feet 8.5 inches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  19. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean the German and Austrian 1.95m Pantographs Carbon contact strips if you are looking for the technical term. Swiss Pantographs are compatible with French 25kv 50hz overhead wires because contact strips are 1.45m. Swiss Pantographs Can't run on ÖBB Deutsche Bahn Netze 15kv 16.7hz wires because they're going to lose contact with it.
    Speaking of the United Kingdom double decker trains there's the 4DD used on London Third Rail Network. Modern version of it would have been a Modified Japanese 1.067m Cape Gauge double decker trains made by Hitachi Newton aycliffe Newcastle upon Tyne region fit the UK Loading gauge.
     
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  20. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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  21. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Yes agreed. I believe both are RA8 cleared in the UK.
     
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  22. Javelin

    Javelin Well-Known Member

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    I live in Kent and travel on hs1 quite regularly and i can assure you that hs1 is built to the continental European loading gauge as is the short spur from Stratford International to Temple Mills depot, also the junction at Barking is only used by freight and maintenance trains.
    Also hs2 is being built to the European loading gauge, the reason for this is while the initial train fleet being ordered for phase 1 will be standard uk gauge trains so they can operate away from the core hs2 network, for when phase 2 opens the dft/hs2 ltd are planning on ordering a fleet of European gauge trains to operate on services that will only operate on the core hs2 network such as Euston - Birmingham for example.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Track gauge and loading gauge are two different things. The UK, Europe and North America all run on standard gauge track (4' 8-1/2")
     
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  24. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    Isn't loading gauge the measurement that defines the maximum width and height of rail vehicles so that they can get through bridges, tunnels and platforms?

    I remember several years ago that France ordered new trains and they got the gauge wrong for a lot of stations meaning the trains couldn't actually fit into platforms without damaging them. They also couldn't pass each other safely on a lot of sections of track.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  25. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I think you've confused track gauge with loading gauge. Entirely different things. The UK uses the same track gauge as everywhere else in Europe barring Spain and the former Soviet Union, but the difference is, central Europe built much of its railways after the Berne agreement on loading gauge standardisation. The UK, in general, built theirs much earlier, so trains can't be as wide or tall.

    Of course there's no track gauge change between France and London on the Eurostar, else the train would have to swap bogies in East London!
     
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  26. Ferrovipathe67

    Ferrovipathe67 Well-Known Member

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    no,the tunnel was not built to European standards and also HSL tunnels are built to European standards
     
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  27. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    An interesting subject. Loading gauges are not permanently fixed here in North America. The Class 1 railroads have increased their loading gauges over the years to accommodate larger loads such as auto racks, double stack containers and airplane fuselages etc.,as well as the now ubiquitous double decker commuter railcars. Interestingly also, although Chicago subway cars are network interoperable, New York and Boston have at least 2 mutually exclusive loading gauges on their systems, similar to London.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  28. fabdiva

    fabdiva Well-Known Member

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    HS1 is built to French LGV Standards. HS2 is based on the EU/UIC High speed rail standards with some changes with regard to platform heights. - Both will be able to take double deck stock, however there are no plans for DD Stock on HS2 because with the high frequencies dwell times become more important.

    While Height is relatively easy to fix (and is being done in some places for freight) there are a lot of structures that would intrude on the lower deck, things like Bridge Beams etc - This means you'd only be able to get 1+1 below platform level, add in the stairs and you'd not have much more capacity then a single deck car. In much of the world the full width is available to rail level.

    New Bridges and structures (apart from Platforms) are built to European gauge as it adds very little to the cost and if needed would make things easier to convert in the future.
     
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