I think the one thing that annoys me is that with PC, a mod will be easily made. However, for console users who won't get to have an immersive feel without these sounds and that's all down to the creator and their selfish ways by not spending more time fixing these, or asking for help if not knowing what to do...
Spot on. Maybe TSW can add a mod feature to the game which allows us console users to download and install 3rd party mods. For example like Skyrim and Fallout have.
Even DTG seems don't attach importance on sound. For example, they reuse the broken sound of the BR143 on BR112 (whose IRL is totally different from BR143), which still not fixed. Sound is my first priority on this game, if they still keeping doing something like this, I won't buy any DLC any longer.
Shame that the 150 released the way it did. I thought rivet was finally making a proper change. Guess I was wrong
As a "UK content only" player in TS, owning almost every UK DLC available from Steam and AP products, the sound is far from good. It's unbelievable that a train in the outdated graphics Train Simulator, is soooo much better than a newly released for a modern graphics engine. All new UK trains and locos that has been released by AP, should have at least the AP sounds in the version for TSW. You can't? Go and record new ones, but you can't offer a mediocre product when there is an excellent version for a previous game. For me, it's unacceptable that a previous game from the same developer has better trains (graphics in some cases, sounds in other, etc). When I started to play TSW, bought the UK routes and locos. The moment I turned on the 37 on Tees Valley Line and heard the sounds, started to buy all german routes and locos. I won't support UK products until they get the same or better quality than the TS versions.
Agree with your comments, though there is a 'change your vote' button in a little black box, near to where you can see the results of the poll. It would be great for your vote to be changed as we really need to get this sorted. I think TS classic on some ways is better because the sounds are more advanced. I am never going to use or purchase RIVET products again, this has aggravated me because I have looked forward to this for 5-6 months and now seeing it as it is has confirmed that they cannot do things up to scratch in terms of sound. They are just like Skyhook, they are both poor at sourcing crucial aspects of their DLC. Why do DTG not penalise them and accept that their 3rd party DLC creators are failing BADLY. Why don't they listen to us?!?!?!
I have created a petition https://chng.it/JrLYJW2ggZ Feel free to copy and paste / share and also make suggestions on wording and details that I have added.
Another thing that is also something for DTG / Rivet to consider, is that if Armstrong Powerhouse sounds are being quoted in the rivet wording and they release it as it is, not only is it giving DTG a really bad name but it’s also reflecting badly on AP too. For new comers that aren’t aware of the amazing quality that AP produce time and time again, and if they heard these sounds they will not be impressed. We all know it doesn’t reflect on AP what so ever as they have just been implemented unsuccessfully but not everyone will be aware. Therefore in an extreme end of the scale AP could technically start a lawsuit against them as it’s potentially ruining their hard earned reputation.
You know there’s an issue when its several year old counterpart, which also uses the same sounds, sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we have in TSW. Sounds like Rivet have struggled to mix the sounds properly, as well as set the Simugraph physics correctly. The 150 shouldn’t immediately set off like an electric train when power is applied from standstill. They should’ve asked for assistance if they needed it. Which in this case, they clearly did.
The sounds are not bad, but also far away to get a "well done". So what can we see? Rivet is capable of creating visually stunning content and what i saw on stream the functionality of the train is good. Im not an audio engineer, and rivet hasnt one for sure as well. So for those kind of things, which are important to get done accurate in a simulator they should hire the a sound specialist or let the sound mixing do over dtg. I will buy west cornwall local, even if i thought we passed the point of the ductape system for tsw (mods and to fix released content) Its not fair to say rivet screwed up, because they have done many things the right way too. All 3 current devs have content out there with major things left to fix. My personal opinion is just that of those, dtg is on the best way to keep quality up in terms of bug fixing. Here few examples thats not just rivet: Dtg: wsr class 09 still lacks all the features of the cl.08 in terms of details, which is the reason i dont like to drive it. Skyhook: no words..., not to their products, its because they dont even responde to a customerbase, and dont have the balls to show up on their own f..n previewstream. Rivet: Except we ending up talking about sound alltime with rivets content, i can also enjoy the products they made. Like i said above i wont blame them, just let the work do by somebody works with audio as a pro. London commuter showed me that it was the right choice to change from ts2021 to tsw2 3 months ago, but the releases of the 187 and the bad sound of the tubestock makes this all tasting salty.
I think we will get through this, hopefully with no ones livelihood adversely affected but it’s evident now we don’t need more apology streams but fundamental improvements All producers of DLC need defined standards to adhere to. We know the team love trains, they should be calling out the sounds before us Questions need to be asked in whether the QA team are trained to test what they are (by this I mean do they have some experience or source material they QA against, do they know what the train sounds like and it’s characteristics. Have they signed it off sounding like a train or sounding like a 150) The community want the product to succeed, are passionate and will help if asked where we can Train sim should not be outperforming it’s newer sibling, we’ve likely upgraded based on TSW outperforming in all not some areas Dlcs need to be consistent. It boggles me we get amazing content like Dresden and Brighton and then the quality is allowed to drop, a route charter of features they all meet should be in situ if not already that’s updated. Dlc shouldn’t be a feature / quality lottery. This is not a moan, just someone over 700hrs in that would like to buy more and enjoy more but In the right way. I was genuinely willing to put arosa and iow feedbacks behind me (I never bought) and give Cornwall a chance as I remember the 150s as a kid but I feel as I see more I’m losing the urge. If I can humbly ask one thing of DTG, please don’t let your own next route dlc turn up with less features (night lighting, timetable,) than your recent successes.
The difference in 150 sound between the AP own version and Rivet's one is staggering. While the AP 150 even in first notches has its engine rev up and roar like a lion, the Rivet's 150 sounds more like a neutered cat.
Fully agree. I just bought the BR155 and have been running it on Dresden. You could almost think the German stuff is a different sim.
No purchase from me unless those sounds and physics are fixed. I've bought every UK DLC, and pretty much most US and GE It's stopping now. I've said my piece in other threads, but devs, look at the 166 setup for a start: speak to Ed! Get a working Voith hydraulic box, add different sounds for EACH throttle notch plus the transitions between each notch, ahem, like AP did in the TS1 version, some bogie run sounds, and brake rub sounds.. Listen to people who've tried to help you such as Gary.. and I'll reconsider.
I am sure I have signed this now. Chipped in aswell. This needs sharing far and wide. Added to TSW community group on FB aswell!
I have signed though having to leave your email and verify via it might put some people off who would otherwise sign.
Not sure a petition is going to make any real difference. They know what the issues are, they know how to make it better, it's up to them whether they do that. They're not an organisation that has to answer to public calls for change, they're a commercial operation that wants your money, so vote with your wallet. The route looks good and it's one I am interested in, so I'll buy it when the sounds are fixed and it comes with PSN trophies. If you watched the stream, were outraged by the sounds and bought the DLC anyway, you've already wasted your vote.
Hey everyone, this thread is really valuable for helping us to communicate back to Rivet how you feel about the sounds on the 150. Now there are a couple of things I want to try and explain. Polls are a great way for us to determine where the community feelings are as a majority with any debate but they won't be completely . In this case the majority feel like the 150 sounds aren't up to the standard you expect. Unfortunately, we can only use polls to gauge a general feeling and not take them as hard facts - this is because many people will vote for various different reasons, some votes will be just to see numbers go up, others will vote who actually have little interest in the 150 or Penzance but enjoy taking part in a poll, some votes will be spite votes to go against the majority etc... The petition which has been started really shows how enthusiastic and passionate about this you are, but sadly it won't be able to change the sounds. We will ensure Rivet see how strongly you feel, however ultimately it's still up to them if they want to update the sounds. I understand that with the delay many will have hoped Rivet would find the time to make these changes, their focus at this time will entirely be on fixing any bugs.
We certainly use it as a gauge, but we've found that detailed feedback is much more valuable than 1 vote on a poll.
At least we have done it in a respectful way this time ……..I hope. You only have to play AP150 for 5 minutes to realise the HUGE difference in quality….especially as this was a product recorded more than 5 years ago. I sincerely doubt a small petition will do a huge amount, as does a poll…but it is OUR MONEY that we are spending here. If enough people refuse to buy it in its current state then this poll may have served it’s purpose. As I have said on other platforms, if Rivet’s sound work isn’t up to scratch, which clearly at the moment it isn’t, they risk people not buying it, plastering horrendous reviews all over the place, their reputation (and DTG’s) taking a southward direction and ultimately profits dropping, potentially risk going bust. So whilst you’re right - a poll does naff all in the short term, but it may just serve as a stark warning that a company’s reputation and how it treats it’s customers is paramount in this era. If they don’t listen or ask for help. They only have themselves to blame. I remember a few years back I was Musical Director for Sound of Music. Now with most musicals I’m confident with vocals, conducting the theatre orchestras, leading rehearsals and teaching all the various singing parts, vocal coaching and the like. I’ve won awards for my shows in the past and I will spend every spare hour rehearsing, fine tuning and perfecting every single aspect. However, with the Slund of Music, the show included Latin singing. I have NEVER studied Latin and wouldn’t have attempted to teach it to a group of singers, So I actually paid someone out of my own money to come in and teach the Latin pronunciations properly. Didn’t have to, we could have just busked it but I wanted it to be the best show possible. Moral of the story - get the right people to do the job and accept we can’t be brilliant at everything. Haha
Can’t really agree with what Nat has written. DTG are the umbrella for all this content and sorry but the buck stops there if a contractor is failing to deliver goods to a sufficient standard. If a builder comes out to fix your garage (good luck finding one!) and does a sub par job, you withhold payment until they get it right.
Stating that quality control of third parties "is up to them" is a major part of the ongoing quality control issues. A significant source of frustration is that DTG are the publisher of TSW, yet are not exercising their responsibilities sufficiently in relation to quality control and standards. As the publisher, DTG can (and many in the community are arguing should) insist that the developers creating content for them "do better". If that means those devs need to going back into development to meet a minimum quality standard, so be it. If this doesn't happen, why would developers put in the effort to get quality right first time moving forwards? Ownership and responsibility for quality control can no longer be pushed back to third parties. Thought this had been acknowledged by Matt on Tuesday's stream, so surprised to read this response. DTG, as the publisher, need to take responsibility for the quality of all DLC they publish.
I’ll actually be surprised if AP allow the sounds to go unfixed for too long. Being told these are AP sounds and the fact they do not sound like the actual AP sounds in game can’t be good. AP might be seen as having provided poor sound or might be reluctant to share their content in future.
It is no wonder people don't want to be third party content producers for TSW. It is no wonder people are wary of buying third party content for TSW. DTG takes a big cut, puts up roadblocks at all points and then throws you under the bus and takes zero responsibility for the content or fixes to it. If DTG want to just let anyone put out TSW content then do so on a buyer beware basis. If DTG want to closely control everything that goes out then apply the same levels of quality control and quality expectations to all content released on the TSW platform. Bug fixes are up to the third party, the quality of the product is up to the third party, preservation updates are up to the third party and yet you have pulled the release this week because there were issues found by DTG which it was felt were too significant to ship with. There are mixed signals all over the place, this will only result in poor sales for third parties further putting anyone off joining in. These things should be done collaboratively, collectively and with a unified front. Cathcart is again a shining example. Rivet helped make the route, provided resources and dev time to help create it and the quality is excellent. Further, as a DTG route we know there will be bug fixes and preservation updates. Rivet's own routes though, well not so much. The danger is it is that some content will be classified not as third party, but as second rate.
Hello Nat, straight question: If the sounds remain the same and sales are poor/less than 10% of what was expected will this be the final time DTG work with Rivet? Think we are now at a reasonable point to say the relationship is becoming...weary.. at best
No it will not be the last time. However if sales were impacted, we would look into all manner of reasons why, not just the sounds. A casual player is unlikely to feel as strongly about sounds as some of our more enthusiastic and knowledgeable members on the forums, so we would need to look into what else was causing contention. This doesn't mean we don't understand how passionate the community are about having authentic sounds and how important it is to many of you, we talk about it a lot and we understand when they are inaccurate it's a real bug bare and for some simply stops you from enjoying a route/loco or wanting to purchase it at all.
It's clear that a lot of people bothered by the trophies/achievements is a matter of what kind of players are buying/playing the game. The people fighting for better sounds, physics, scenery details, etc, are mostly hardcore trains fans. But the other worried about trophies and stuff like that are the casual players. They have a vote too, and I'm not obviously sure, but casual players must be more than the real trains lovers. As a player: WCL looks really nice, the Class 150/2 looks amazing and works as intended. Drive the train, stop at the stations, open the doors. Repeat. Same for the Class 37/5. I could play it as it is right now and enjoy it. As a huge trains fan: well, you can read about it in this thread.
I do hope we will not end up with class 43 sounds on the first steam release or the sound of a kettle being recorded boiling driven in the back of a van because it mixed well. I feel we are treading into murky water here to which the locos that pride themselves on being a sim actually become a casual simcade interpretation rather than a simulation.
The last three DLC releases, all from third parties: 1938 stock. Sounds nothing like the train when it was in operation BR187. Sounds nothing like it because it isn’t. It’s the BR185. 150/2. Better than the last two but sadly lacking in the sound department despite having the source files available. All three look good but are completely let down by the sounds. I wasn’t going to buy the BR187 anyway but sadly, I am unwilling to buy the 1938 stock which I was really looking forward to.
I refunded the 1938 stock purely because of the rancid sounds. Bought the BR155 instead which is a lovely loco. So DTG still got their money but I will not support any more products developed by Rivet, until they show improvement and fix the flawed content already released.
There's no way that sales will be reduced by 90%. I fully expect that most of the people who even have an issue with the sounds and are here voting that they're unacceptable, have already bought it anyway. Assessing quality and oting with your wallet doesn't seem to be a thing most people are willing to do when there's new content to be snapped up on release day.
Well, Rivet has managed to drop the ball again, (not surprised) this latest DLC is a no purchase for me either, if sounds are always going to come in a poor fourth cousin then I seriously have lost interest in all the hyperbole from DTG and their third party developers regarding sounds, I think my time will be spent more on TS20xx until the soundscapes for TSW2 are heavily upgraded, Sam was right on that stream with the executive producer Matt about the importance of them (sounds).
Lesson learned today. DTG's representative has confirmed that they will practically release with the current sounds as they are seemingly refusing to intercept the produce that they are due to sell. If DTG have been issued AP sounds for their own DLC (Class 465, Class 314), why are they not willing to investigate the current sounds of the class 150 and help RIVET for future releases? If it's not right, don't release it. You are fixing class 'A' issues but surely DTG have been made aware that sound is also important to their customer base.
"accurate true-to-life performance and handling" to be fair...they didn't mention sounds to be authentic on the store page :')
Its obvious from this thread that Gary H and Alex J sent Rivet valuable info to help them. Why this just ignored please? Out of sheer arrogance or ignorance of sound engineering? The performance.isnt true to life either though.
Is it me, or is this forum about a game that I thought was about playing with trains, looking at signals and trying to get stations on time whilst driving interesting pretty varied routes? But actually what people want is to replicate standing on a platform and listening to a train rumble past?
I think on a fair reflection, your personal approach has been for RIVET to model the area/route in a sort of true to life basis. I have seen your posts on other forums so I can verify this. We all have a passion for how we would like things to be represented and on this instance, we are focusing on the sounds.
Awful sounds aside, can you actually believe this…. Around the 6 minute mark. He’s in notch 1 climbing up a fairly steep gradient at 75mph and yet it is still accelerating? WHAT ARE THESE DEVELOPERS DOING …. THIS IS INSANELY INACCURATE. In real life I doubt even notch 4 would accelerate up hill at that high speed. Truly shocking. Utter clowns. I’ve given up all hope that this will come close to AP quality. For me - it no longer exists. I’m out !
Just a thought. I wonder what AP make of all this. It can’t be doing their reputation any good when the problem is not of their doing. Would they be hesitant to licence their sound files to Rivet in the future if the result is likely to be similar.
It’s my understanding that Simugraph simulates all the components/systems in a train and how they interact together to reproduce the physics of the train and that the sounds are linked to the components for certain effects. Getting accurate physics, and therefore how the sounds react, will be down to having correct data for each component or system in the train to input into Simugraph. If that information isn’t available, instead of a simple set of data to imitate the acceleration or other behaviour and a separate sound that sounds like the train accelerating, the devs will have to guess at what each component and system is doing on the train during acceleration and endlessly tweak it to get the physics and the sound to behave realistically. Therefore I see Simugraph being a bit too complex to set up and later change to fix an inaccurate behaviour or sound during acceleration. Is it just too complex if the initial data isn’t available? Is it the correct way to simulate trains? Maybe someone with more understanding of this could shed some light on that. How would Rivet (or anyone else) get to know what component a and component b are doing inside the train to set up Simugraph effectively? You can’t get that from watching a video of a train departing but you can tell that it’s not right at the end by watching one. Is Simugraph to blame?