Ps5 Dlc Limit… Hmm

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Mattty May, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Judging by Matt’s comments on the PS5 DLC limit, there doesn’t seem to be a quick fix coming, which is definitely going to impact what I can buy in the meantime.

    I’m not sure I like the mounting on/off solution (although this could definitely make things better) as this is going to significantly limit how TSW 2 can evolve. It might never be an issue (given the finite 16GB of RAM), but the total mounted content not exceeding 64GB would always hobble the length of route, number of layers etc when routes and layers have to work together.

    For example, on BML, to get all the layers, you need BML, ECW, GWE, SEHS and 465 DLC installed. Now let’s assume these layers were such a size that having them all installed breached the 64GB limit. That would render what was achieved with BML impossible - unless DTG can find a way to separate the trains from the routes and have them standalone, so all you would actually need is BML and whichever trains you wanted to run as layers.

    TrainSim-Matt Would it be possible to separate the trains from each route so you don’t need specific routes installed to access the trains? I think having the trains separated from their native routes could be a solution that also helps Gen8 console players - if technically possible.

    Also, no answer was given as to whether the mounting solution would require PS5 players to start a new profile from scratch.
     
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  2. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Also a longer term issue I have wondered about is that you maybe able in future to mount and unmount the DLC's as required however they still need to be installed on the SSD, what is the long term disk space solution going forwards? We are in the 92Gb region just now on PS5 with the standard SSD of the console less than half a terrabyte. It's going to soon fill and not everyone will be able to afford the recent expansion option. Just a thought that niggles me a bit
     
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  3. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Sam said that the big majority of the console players are on gen8. And that's why they will support that in a longer period. I'm not really surprised, because otherwise DTG would damage their own business.

    And Matt said, that they are very unhappy, that they could not offer gen8 players the whole BML experience and that they are working on that.

    And then a lot of the memory issues comes from the UE 4.26 upgrade, because that version is much bigger than 4.23. And the reason for choosing 4.26 was to make gen9 upgrades possible. But even gen9 runs out of memory, because of 4.26.

    I think the 4.26 upgrade is the reason for all the game crashes and memory issues.

    Because all optimization works from DTG was eaten up from UE4.26.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
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  4. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what sort of solution you‘re looking for here. There‘s no way around the game getting bigger the more DLC you download.
     
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  5. trainsimfan94

    trainsimfan94 Member

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    WOW looks like the dlc limit issue is here to stay...
     
  6. Dinger75

    Dinger75 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why we would need to start again because of this as save games are completely unrelated.

    Long term I don't think the total size for mounted DLC is going to be much of an issue. Even with all of the DLC mentioned needed to run BML mounted, it will not even reach 20gb. If they did manage to create a UI that doesn't mount everything the second the game loads, if we ever got up to the 64gb limited we are more likely going to be pushed for memory allocation in game that is reserved for all the different types of trains being loaded (about 250mb each)

    However it is now a very good chance that the reason for all the system crashes we are getting are related to how much DLC we own, as DTG admitted they didn't test with all DLC loaded (totally bonkers if you know that there is a memory cost in game with every DLC installed).

    So while this issue sucks for us PS5 owners atm, long term we may actually get a more stable game as this has finally forced DTG to actually be smart about what it's doing. Rather than just create as much DLC as possible without thinking about if there are going to be nasty consequence
     
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  7. DigiTMCN

    DigiTMCN Member

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    Still don't get why they don't just recompile all DLC into the Core, in which when you purchase a DLC it just unlocks it in the core game. Although for people that own the PS5 version it would be a large size, at least that would sort the issue out. This would make it near 100GB, but still small compared to games like Call of Duty. Plus PS5 now has that expansion slot enabled as well if people choose to upgrade storage.
     
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  8. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I understand this issue. What is Sony's reason for limiting the TSW2 installation on PS5?
     
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  9. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I’m talking about the ongoing game size optimisation they’ve talked about several times. Seems to have gone quiet recently
     
  10. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I think the idea put forward to mount DLC sounds very promising. It probably will have benefits for PS4 as well so this might go quickly. Not in the coming weeks, but a fix will be there when PS5's become available. To think all these troubles started with next gen console support. Couldn't PS5 owners just waited like the rest of us? :D
     
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  11. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    PS5s are available; there's one on my desk currently not running BML, so we are waiting...
     
  12. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    As far as I recall, this has gone quiet because it‘s done. There was a substantial reduction in size with the next gen versions and that‘s it for now.
     
  13. jon_mann

    jon_mann Member

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    They haven't just limited TSW2, it is a limit for every game, but TSW2 is the only one that hits it as I expect Sony presumed no game would ever hit that limit. Also most games usually add the dlc to the core and use an unlock key that you purchase rather than having separate dlc download. This is another way that they could solve the issue but it would mean the size of the game would rocket from about 25gb to around 100gb.
     
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  14. Observadorpt

    Observadorpt Active Member

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    if that is an option i dont mind at least i will be able to play all dlcs without deleting anything.
     
  15. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t mind either, but think of the people with slow internet. Before I got decent internet, downloading 100gb would have taken over a day.
     
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  16. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I have all the DLC and mine reduced by 1Gb total size
     
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  17. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I'm waiting till the first page of the Playstation forum on here isn't filled with PS5 problems before I purchase mine ;)
     
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  18. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And if they are available in a normal way for a normal price for average working people. :)
     
  19. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect many people don't particularly want to be forced to download every single route in the game, the space that will take up is enormous and will only get bigger storage space is premium for many people and being forced to download potentially dozens of gigabytes of content they don't own and don't want is not going to be acceptable to many players.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    My question on this is WHY are all DLC loading at startup? I know in other games DLC interact with the core game and TSW in it's very nature works differently (you don't need a german route in memory to run SEHS for example, although you might need to load the loco assets from that DLC if you want to use them in off the rails mode)
    Is there means to turn that setting off?
    Is this a thing in UE specifically or is this something DTG implemented to workaround something else meaning we're being hit with this now?

    My thought on the matter is IF it can be switched off as a setting and if dynamic loading and offloading is a possibility then the UI should look to the specific scenario or timetable and dynamically load at that point. Might take a few seconds longer on scenario load, but would mean you're only loading what you're actually going to be using at that time rather than everything sitting latent in memory
     
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  21. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I really think a solution, if it can be implemented, is to strip each route of its trains and timetables. Have the route as one pack and the trains/timetables as another, so when you download a route like BML, you would have a download for the route and two downloads, one for the 377 and 387 and their respective timetables.

    You could then download (or not) the other train/timetable files, 166, 66, 465, 375, 313 etc so that BML gets all the layers. Having separate routes and trains might also remove the need to have multiples of the same loco as the specific train file can be updated rather than the route.

    Matt will probably say this is a difficult task, which it probably is, but I think it might be something to consider if technically possible.
     
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  22. ukpetey

    ukpetey Well-Known Member

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    I also have a PS5 that currently isn’t running BML and won’t be until BML is fixed. I have the cash in the bank ready to buy it…
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Slightly off topic, but this would mean this would likely have the most DLC of any game ever... We've already got a ton of DLC but splitting out the assets and timetables really would up that number!

    I agree it would solve several issues, including loco multiplication etc, although there could be implications we're not aware of in that
     
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  24. Dinger75

    Dinger75 Well-Known Member

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    Whatever solution DTG comes up with I think this will help with that but pretty sure it won't be a solution by itself (might even cause more problems)

    The issue seems to be that whatever DLC we have is being mounted into the game in case the player wants to use it instead of only mounting when a player chooses to use it.

    So if you have it installed it takes up part of the system Ram whenever you play the game (playing GWE still means every other route installed is in part still in the RAM).

    So if you decouple trains from routes right now, all you will be doing is mounting both train & route DLC into the Ram instead of just one piece of DLC

    However, if a solution is found then this maybe on option but only if a train DLC uses less RAM when mounted when compared to a train/route combination DLC
     
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  25. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That's because you're playing the PS5 version. The compression happened with that update, so the PS5 already started with the new compression. Without it, the PS5 install would be much bigger than the PS4 version due to the PC textures.
     
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  26. erikun#1296

    erikun#1296 New Member

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    Couldn't they do it like they do for the recent Call of Duty games? In those games you can chose which parts of the main game you have installed on your system. So they could have all of the DLC as part of the main game, but then chose which parts you wanted installed on the system. You could have the DLC as just software keys and then be prompted to download the data you need for the route when you started that route. That would circumvent the DLC limit and also allow people to not have data they don't need on their drive.
     
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  27. trainsimfan94

    trainsimfan94 Member

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    so the tsw 2 dlc limit issue i caused by an update from sony?? i thought it was from the game itself.
     
  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nah, Sony decided to put a limit on DLC load size in their latest OS build. Nothing to do with DTG
     
  29. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sure they didn’t just ‘decide’. It would have been in the beta for months as previously mentioned. As we found out this week there is no testing on console so that’s how it came as a surprise
     
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  30. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    this is all to technical for me its just blowing my mind to try and think and work out whats going on
     
  31. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Let‘s stay fair and stick to the facts. There is testing on consoles, but they way it was being done, it was unlikely that this limitation would have cropped up during tests. We‘re all frustrated here, but twisting the facts doesn‘t help us either.
     
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  32. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    How have I twisted the facts? I’m happy for you to show me the evidence of where it was just decided to impose a 64gb limit if we are looking at facts.
     
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  33. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Let me jump in and drop some facts in to try and untwist everyone :)

    When PS5 launched it did not have this limit in the tech BUT tucked away in one of many documents was a section that described that this limitation WAS going to be present and should be treated as such. We missed that. There's good reasons why it was missed but ultimately, it was missed.

    So when the game was launched on PS5 everything worked fine, because while the paperwork said about the limit, and Sony certified 90gb of DLC for the game no problem at all, the system itself did not impose a limit - that's why it worked.

    Then comes the recent system update, which now brings into force the 64gb limit. That's when your DLC stops working.

    I've seen comments from people on a recent twitch stream exclaiming we're making the 64gb limit up, even citing references at other studios, these comments are a bit of a surprise, given it's written clearly in the documentation (once you know to look for it) exactly what the limits are that will be imposed that weren't present on PS4 (though, no, it doesn't say *why* but then it doesn't really matter, it is what it is).

    Possibly this is coming from the misunderstanding that there are other games out there such as a well known war shooter which is around 200gb and works just fine... this is where the difference between the core game (which has no limit in size) and the DLC (which has the 64gb total max) are applicable. Most games download everything and you turn it on and off with something called "entitlements". This is appropriate in those cases because if they are weapon skins or other mods etc, then you want to see them from other players in a multiplayer session even if you don't own them yourself. In TS, having 80gb of content on your console that you cannot benefit from in the slightest without paying more money... I dunno... doesn't sit right. it also represents a big escalation in some of our turnaround times internally - copying a 20gb of data to a playstation regularly for patch updates to test is one thing, but if that becomes 100gb that changes things considerably too. Problems that could be worked around, but it all adds up.

    This is rather an exaggeration - there are no beta testers able to test on consoles, it's literally not something we're able to do currently. We have a couple of console players who are on the beta team specifically because of their rail industry experience, and they join in on discord streams to provide feedback, but it'd be so much better to just get them content to play and bring in a bigger range of beta testers from the console audience - but as of now, we can't do that.

    To say there's "no" testing though... that's untrue, there is testing done. Exactly the nature of that testing we need to verify BUT i'm getting the impression from the QA team that they are finding the test and dev kit consoles DONT have this limit imposed on them yet, we're getting that verified at the moment, which of course has implications for the validity of some testing and would further explain why this was not picked up. This is part of our investigation into what happened here and how we prevent it in future, along with reviewing what the QA team are installing alongside the test subject itself so that they're more accurately capturing player experience.

    Matt.
     
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  34. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Matt. I think I meant to say that regarding beta testing for console but I worded it quite badly
     
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  35. Observadorpt

    Observadorpt Active Member

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    hI

    Your conversations with sony are taking some positive answers?
     
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  36. Thunderer

    Thunderer Well-Known Member

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    So if Sony do not reverse their 64gb limit, then DTG will call it a day for TSW2 on Playstation OR insist players download only the DLC they currently want to play OR Dovetail will have to rewrite their Playstation front end to include an entitlement system?

    Would that be accurate?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  37. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly. You‘re missing the hot-mounting option discussed at length in the last Q&A state-of-the-game stream which seems like the most probable solution at the moment.
     
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  38. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Hot mounting is definitely the way forwards - not only should it solve the PS problem but it potentially offers some decent memory savings too, so we're actively pursuing that solution on all console platforms now.
     
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  39. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Are we likely to see the fruits of these labours any time soon? I appreciate it’s not something that can be resolved overnight. I really don’t understand why Sony have done this. They clearly have their reasons but…
     
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  40. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    If you guys can make hot mounting automatic...turning things off that we already own doesnt go Very well with our brains...
     
  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Definitely. The more you can get OUT of memory the better. I was actually surprised when DTG said that everything remained mounted at all times anyway!
     
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  42. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Would someone be so kind as to explain what the "hot mounting" will consist of? Because I don't quite understand it.
     
  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Basically at the moment every DLC you have in your collection is "mounted" when the game loads, this means that those files can be referenced and presumably this is how DTG are letting the game see which locos you have, which routes etc and therefore populating the menus
    From what DTG have said recently, these are staying "mounted" all the time, as in even when you're playing a specific route with specific locos and specific whatever else is needed to play that route (houses, scenery, trees...)

    What "hot mounting" would allow is for DLC to be shoved out of memory when you don't need them, and only loaded into memory again when you do need them.
    So look at GWE as an example. Everything on the original timetable for that route is kept IN that route. So if you said you wanted to start an original GWE scenario the game could unmount all the DLC it didn't need, ie everything else
    When you go back to the menu again it might need to mount the DLC to show you what you might want next
    So then say you run a diesel legends run using the class 20.
    Well the game would only need the GWE, the class 20 DLC and the Tees Valley Line (the Cl20 "home route"). All the others can be dropped from memory

    After that, you switch to Caltrain. So this would mean the GWE, TVL and Cl20 DLC get dropped from memory and the Caltrain is all that remains in memory

    So the "dynamic mounting and unmounting of DLC into and out of memory would mean that things you're not using RIGHT NOW would be taken out of memory, leaving you with what you actually want to use in memory right now

    This would not only mean that the PS5 players wouldn't hit the "loaded DLC limit" of 64Gb (because you're freeing up some memory by demounting what you don't need), it will also help on xbox and on PC because they're not having to retain memory space for things that aren't necessary until you go back to the menu
     
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  44. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    The more I understand the more I think it’s a rather elegant solution. However, I think DTG would need to automate it, so for example if you select London Commuter, the game knows what DLC is needed to give you the very best experience and loads what is available (based on what DLC we own).
     
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  45. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    And from what Matt said, it seems like gen 8 consoles would benefit the most (apart from the PS5 limit obviously) from this since for them, a sizable chunk of memory is used by having everything mounted at all times. This might improve their performance, maybe even open up layering possibilities again in the best case scenario. While none of us like the PS5 limit, we just might end up with a better TSW because of it.
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Funny enough, that's what TS1 does but kind of in reverse. It tries to load only what it needs from what's in the scenario and then lists to you what failed. If it was in a file linked to the timetable or scenario exactly what was needed to run that timetable or scenario you could then "cut out the fat". Even better if they could load only what's needed in the next few map tiles (minutes, whatever) because then you could really have dynamic loading of requirements

    I'm thinking along the lines of on Brighton you would only need the SE375s loaded until you get past Redhill, only need the 313s if you're running when they're doing a Selhurst run or if you're coming into Brighton...
    That might be a bit ambitious and would have an impact on the CPU (which would need to be able to work out what to load when, dynamically throughout a drive) but it would be great memory management.
     
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  47. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Easiest way to think about the mounting situation is like you have a car park full of parked cars. That's your hard drive and all the content on it. When you fire up the game, it looks for all the cars that belong to the game and mounts them - let's say, turns them on and puts their lights on. This means the game can see everything and it's all accessible. Mounting doesnt have any relationship to whether it's downloaded or installed, merely whether it's accessible at that moment.

    So - the Sony limit is that you can only have 64gb of "cars" mounted. So by limiting what you mount, you solve that problem.

    The memory thing is a side effect of UE4, something it does to help optimise access to all the thousands upon thousands of files in these various package files is like imagine each of those cars has a clipboard containing a full list of contents within the car, and that those cars are rather well filled, so the list is comprehensive. When a car is turned on, lights turned on, it also submits its clipboard of contents to the parking attendant - end result is that after booting, the parking attendant now has stacks of big fat clipboards they have to keep a good memory of so that they can respond to any requests from management quickly.

    If you're playing Main Spessart Bahn, then having rapid access to anything really except German files is rather unnecessary, but it's there, clogging up memory... and from what I understand, it's not a small amount of memory at this point either.

    So - if you only turn the cars on you need, and only get clipboards from those, the much happier parking attendant has less to worry about.

    Maybe that helps, maybe it just makes you think.. "wait, cars? what?" :-D

    The goal is to make it automatic, but customisable - because the problem with automatic is that it's great while you want to do things like do german trains on german routes - but would totally prevent american trains on british routes for example. Therefore, a little extra customisation is needed to allow you to add or remove things in addition to the default package list if you wish. That way you retain all the flexibility you're used to, and can even easily remove something from being able to substitute in or layer etc by just unmounting it - it really does give superb flexibility.

    There really is no equivalent of this for PC - except using explorer and moving the PAK files to a temp folder :)

    HTH

    Matt.
     
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  48. Dinger75

    Dinger75 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the write up Matt

    I did wonder if it could be as simple (or at least sounds simple) in that it could just be that upon loading seeing flags represent areas such as UK, German, EU (well the rest of) and US. Then once you click the appropriate flag it mounts DLC for that country.

    Its good that it looks like it will be automatic (all fingers crossed) and just wonder if the system will be smart enough that once a route is chosen if it them can unmount unneeded DLC (BML won't need Tees or NTP etc)
     
  49. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for your explanations ARuscoe TrainSim-Matt , I understand it much better now. I really had misunderstood the concept about the famous 64 Gb limit, because I thought it was about the maximum capacity of all the installed DLC. Now I understand that this limit affects only the DLC that are "activated".
    I think this solution is going to take a long time to be fully implemented but it looks very promising. And if it also benefits gen8 in some way, that will be great.
    Although Sony has caused DTG quite a few headaches lately, I hope they don't abandon us and that we can all continue to enjoy TSW on PlayStation for many years to come :)
     
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  50. Observadorpt

    Observadorpt Active Member

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    Hi

    Matt regarding the trophies, sony will allow you to put the missing trophies (BR187) and more trophies for future routes(ex. West Cornwall)?
     
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