Gaming Versus Simming

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Crosstie, Oct 22, 2021.

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  1. More than accurate simulation?

    5 vote(s)
    3.0%
  2. Equal to accurate simulation?

    25 vote(s)
    15.2%
  3. Less than accurate simulation?

    133 vote(s)
    80.6%
  4. Comments welcome

    2 vote(s)
    1.2%
  1. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I ask this question, because it's been on my mind for a while.

    This is a cross-platform poll.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The mastery scenery tiles/overlays really irk me, all the trouble going through making new assets for them when the routes are always full of reused assets just rubs me the wrong way.

    If all those gimmicks were perfect then it still wouldn’t make the seemingly persistent and ever growing sound & physic issues sting me any less, I feel like at this point I’m having to ask myself “are the sounds going to be true to life this time?” for every DLC announcement.

    Yeah, basically, I don’t really value them at all, let alone above simulation aspects.

    The real irony is how often those ‘gameplay’ features are bugged.
     
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  3. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Hm but what is the connection between simulation and the value of gameplay and collection goodies? Surely neither of both suffers because of the other.
     
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  4. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I play on PC and PlayStation. Achievements, Trophies, etc don’t matter at all to me, but I don’t mind them. Collectibles just annoy me especially ones like the Cameras and Ice Creams that rivet use as they remain on the scenery all the time and look out of place. Medals are ok, sometimes I’ll play a scenario again to get gold.

    For me I’m fine with all of the above really, but it would be nice to be able to turn collectibles off.
     
  5. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Something said on a recent stream, plus the amount of attention given to achievements on the forum leads me to believe that DTG puts more value and devotes more development time to that aspect of the game than I had previously thought. Maybe I'm wrong, it's just an impression I've formed recently.
     
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  6. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The worst collectables by far are the screens in BKL, as far as I know if they screens weren't working (like they are if you don't get close to each of them), unless the driver can see the whole lenght of the train from the cab window, a guard would be required, which we obviously don't have in TSW.

    /!\ RANT
    Also seeing broken screens is a big immersion killer. These are the only collectables I farmed, because I was forced to, without the screens BKL is just plain unenjoyable (for me). Like, you have to keep looking at them while stopping (to stop accurately) and keep looking them until boarding is complete, and these objects instrumental to gameplay were locked behind collectables... it's bad enough they aren't functional, not only that, broken as well...
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  7. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    For those whose collection of achievements or trophies is important to them, their absence is a big disappointment. It's a way of setting a goal in an environment that has no goal - the journey is the aim of the game not the end result (otherwise the end result would be more meaningful).

    The downside is that for simulator purists these things are jarring to the experience they want. Do they affect the simulation? No. They don't use up much development time at all so really don't interfere with the experience at all apart from in one, fairly important way - immersion. If you're trying to take yourself out of the world and immerse yourself in the experience, a big fat "YOU DID THE THING 500 TIMES!!1" in the middle of the screen shatters that illusion.

    TSW is an odd piece of entertainment software. It provides meta goals and objectives that sim fans find jarring, while not offering enough game elements ("I completed the thing, give me something!") to satisfy many gamers, and yet it has found a group of people who enjoy it enough to keep coming back for more.
     
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  8. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    My two cents:

    • Points: This is the worst part of the "game" side of TSW2. You get basically rewarded for driving the wrong way (driving at exactly the max speed, stopping at an exact point and not a bit before the stop signal, you are rewarded for not using safety system because you can just go faster ... ). DTG, if you want to have points in the game at least make them reward you for doing things right.

    • Collectibles: These are OK when they are placed in stations or in a reasonably easy to find spot. It also makes sense to place them near landmarks or places that offer an interesting view. Sucks when they are hidden in the grass in remote places.

    • Achievements / medals: These are usually OK. TBH, I think you should link these to things like completing the journey mode, completing the different scenarios, or even using X loco for a reasonable amount of Kms. Achievements attached to driving a full timetable of 300 services in a route that would take months to complete are stupid and should have never been added.

    • Mastery: It is usually OK. Most of the time it doesn't take long to complete it, and if you do not like what it adds it can be turned off.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  9. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    While I personally don't care about achievements at all, I was surprised to see how many people do, especially on consoles. Like people saying things like they won't buy the next add-on unless it comes with PS trophies - it surprised to me big time, as I couldn't imagine someone would care about them this much. But to each their own, I guess.

    I mean the only time I cared about scores in a train game was in Densha de GO, but that's an arcade game and there it makes sense - I mean on Japanese railways you have to be on time to the seconds and stop stop on in +-30cm, which makes for a great arcade game feel with the short distances between stops. So there it really felt like an achievement each time you stopped with 0 seconds on the clock and 0 cm from the stop marker. So in Densha de GO I actually cared about getting those points and being rewarded that little gold star on each stop of the Yamanote Line.

    In a game like TS or TSW, however, I just can't be bothered. The stops usually are not close enough to each other, you're more focused on other serious aspects of a railway than simply stopping precisely. So I never really cared about scoring, I drive with the points display disabled. And in TSW it's just way too easy to get a gold star anyway.

    But back to the point, while I don't understand why anyone would care about achievements and scoring in TSW, I accept that they do, for whatever reason. Therefore I'm happy that they're there for people who care about them, though I highly doubt they should be higher priority than proper simulation.
     
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  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The points system needs overhauling to make it more representative of operating trains properly. You shouldn’t be able to get a gold medal when driving without safety systems for instance. But for that to work, the safety systems would all need to work properly and the timetables would need to be achievable when driving with safety systems enabled. You should have to earn your rewards.
     
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  11. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    To me, TSW is a combination of a game and a sim. I say that because of things like getting collectibles on routes, having scores and obtaining medals for driving trains but also because it does try to replicate the real world of driving trains with real timetables and tries to make scenery look as close to the real thing as possible.
    When I play TS22, I only ever play standard scenarios (without scores) and drive with minimal hud and markers on and all safety systems active (currently can't do that on some TSW2 routes because it doesn't function correctly). I also try to stop in the correct places at stations using the stop markers rather than a blue point on the screen.

    I do think that those who play TSW2 with AWS, PZB etc active should be rewarded more because we are driving according to real rules and conditions and not like an arcade time trial game. I also think that some timetables within TSW2 need a complete overhaul because station timings are tight and you have to have Sam's attitude of "rip it and grip it" to achieve the targets.
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'm fine with collectibles, but get them mainly to avoid blank white posters or empty newspaper stands. I've never completed a full set
    I'm fine with Mastery rewards, and as dioramas to scenic assets, not a particular problem that one dev spends a couple of hours doing something like that while the sounds and physics guys are working on fixing things
    I agree that for me the point system is cackhanded... Too reliant on stopping at the right time and place which may not be possible either due to dynamic running (ie chasing yellows) or because you'd almost SPAD if you stopped right where it wanted you to.
    I'm sure some people do try to beat their high scores, but for me it's about recreating a driving experience rather than getting 150 more points than the other guy (who obviously right now is me anyway)
     
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  13. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If the AP points awarded actually reflected my driving performance then I might care for them, but seeing as I can have a truely bad drive with missing stations, speed limit changes, PZB & SiFa penalties and still get gold they are meaningless and pointless to me.
     
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  14. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Trophies, yes absolutely. They are platform specific and if you always play on a certain platform you come to expect them as part of any new gaming experience as standard.

    The AP system could be a good idea as others have said, if the rewarding of AP’s was based on how well you have played and if that was tied into some reward system eg get to level 100 and unlock this new livery.

    mastery is loosely a version of the above but it’s never worked for me consistently rendering it a bit useless to me.

    Medals I can understand but if I get a silver I won’t feel I have to keep going back until I get a gold unless I need 100 golds to get a trophy towards the platinum. Once I’ve met any trophy requirement I wouldn’t bother what colour my medal is

    collectibles the same as above. If I need them for a trophy I’ll get them but other than that I won’t. NTP has been out a long time and there was no trophy associated with collecting all the collectibles so I still haven’t done them there

    you may notice a running theme regarding trophies here in my response. It’s just one of the things I care about
     
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  15. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Well-Known Member

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    While I do like achievements and mastery and think are an important part of the game but I do I feel good accurate simulation and sounds are more important to me and going by this pole alone the majority do agree.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  16. Veryfatbloke

    Veryfatbloke Member

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    I think that you have a very good point. I have never owned a console and have always train simmed on a PC, medals and rewards have not been a part of my experience at any time and it doesn't bother me whether they are there or not. I know that career scenarios on TS are effectively that, but when I can't keep to time on commuter runs and end up with a score of minus 20k I turn the scoring off or simply don't bother with them.

    I think of myself as more of a casual simmer rather than a serious one, and while I understand that there are people who want everything to be as close to real life as possible, I am not one of them. I have played train sims, going back to MSTS, as a way to destress and have some relaxation. I want my experience to be as good as it can be but I am partially deaf with permanent tinnitus so the subtleties of the sound experience can be lost on me. I don't worry about that as to me it's about driving from A to B and relaxing.

    I also appreciate that others invest more emotion into the game than me but at the end of the day it is only a computer game. What's £25? The cost of 5 or 6 pints of beer, and the only thing you get from that is a hangover.
     
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  17. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I couldn’t give a toss about achievements, medals and points, as I all find them pointless. It doesn’t change the way I play the game or drive a train.

    With TSW supposedly being a simulator, my top priorities would be getting the train models, physics and sounds correct.

    My second priorities would be getting the signalling, track layouts and safety systems all functional and working as they do in real life.

    My third priorities would be things like functional PIS, announcements, detailed TMS & GSMR systems.
     
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  18. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    I was very much surprised to see collectables in a train sim game. But as they are a feature I do try to locate them all. My main complaint is with their placement within the world. The locations should be restricted to places where the player would naturally walk about such as stations and yards.

    Too many are placed in the middle of nowhere where the player would not walk in normal circumstances with the player often having to slam on the train brakes in the middle of nowhere, not exactly very realistic. The worst ones are the ones placed near lines where the trains do not drive, often on the wrong side of wall, fence or barrier than means the player has to walk miles trying to find a way to get access the line.

    Mastery, again something I do try to complete because its a part of the game, but if it was taken away tomorrow, I would not be too bothered. Still far too buggy.
     
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  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is deliberate in an attempt to get people to walk the route, explore etc.
    Your comment on "Slamming on the brakes" is fine in game, but realistic? IRL you wouldn't be driving a train and wondering if that poster is supposed to be blank or why there's not route maps on the platform. That's someone else's job, so the whole thing of collectibles is "unrealistic"
     
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  20. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Especially if they're slap in the middle of the Utah desert when you're in a 3-loco freight barreling along and unlikely to stop and smell the roses. And the only things that spawn there are rattlesnakes, prairie dogs and mountain lions.

    ( Ooh, I forgot the dinosaurs. )
     
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  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think it needs to connect better to mastery. If I did something I’d rather something more interactive than blooming elephants or stickers.

    Points are pointless
    I don’t see any value in these whatsoever in a sim as I’m unlocking nothing. This could effectively be a clock ticking up my gameplay as it serves zero value. I can’t review them per route or loco collectively as far as I know and if so they literally do nothing. There are no rewards for levelling up (I don’t want stickers thank you)

    Achievements to me I don’t value. There’s no multiplayer to work on something together, steam badges inrarely look at so against to me they’re a value free zone.

    Collectibles I don’t mind. I don’t have the time to inch search a route so I’d appreciate a map overlay like assassins creed which gives me the vicinity to look, this should be a toggle on the map so as to not ruin it for those who look


    Mastery I’d rather a new wagon, a mastery achieved train priced into the dlc or something more interesting than a sticker I’ll never open the livery editor to look at
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
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  22. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Some of the gimmicks are a bit too much, said it before a straightforward career mode that unlocks more as you progress would be preferable to all this XP and pointless stickers business.

    It's billed as a simulation so accurate physics and representation of correct railway operating procedure should be the priority.

    I know people want to have fun too, but part of that comes from the satisfaction of knowing you have met a technical challenge in an authentic environment. Back in the day I played a lot of Densha de Go on the various PlayStation iterations and I accepted it as an arcade game and that the physics were simplified as indeed were the routes which tended to be abridged focusing on the highlights, at least until DDG Final.
     
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  23. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    I would classify this discussion as mostly irrelevant. Why? Because none of these additions to the sim (or game if you prefer) have any effect on operating of trains. You can simply ignore the D.... things and be more or less unaware they exist. Those that want them can have them and long may they enjoy them, so long as I am not forced to interact with them (the achievements etc that is).
     
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  24. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Simulation: When loading into Flight Simulator with no assists it is very depressing to not be able to understand anything and fail to make the beautiful machine move forward. Unless you are a pilot and know the thing, that is.

    Gameplay: Being able to cater to a wider audience by having a good balance between simulation and ease of use is a better approach from a business perspective.

    If they can make a game that has both, depth and ease of use that players can opt for in the game settings, then they have a winner. But, we know already that they are not Microsoft so R.I.P. :)
     
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  25. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    In general I like it but it is a bit too much of the good things. Achievements can be fun, mastery is not very exciting and challenging except for the rewards. The action points is a nice idea, but very unbalanced. The medals, I really do not understand. Sometimes you drive bad and get gold, sometimes you drive quite well for a silver. Sometimes you resume a saved game and you do not get a medal and sometimes you do get one.

    It is OK to have them and you can just ignore it.
     
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  26. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Hm..

    Personally I just like to be able to drive my train HUD-less and with all security systems on, just relying on the gauges, indicators and sounds in the model, the signals and trackside signs and (as much as they do so in real life) track knowledge and a timetable.
    I like to be able to set up the train properly and have the systems (especially the brakes) perfom accordingly.
    If I don't know how something works, I do not want to look it up in some in-game manual, but in real life sources, transfer it in the game... and see it actually work.
    And all this in a visually and acoustically pleasing game universe that feels reasonably close to reality.

    I think the game actually achievend a lot of this already or got close at least.

    But while GPR-brake selectors on locos and cars were finally introduced in the Dresden DLC (a milestone for immersion), it feels like (according to the amount of talk on the streams) all energy and time nowadays is consumed by topics like how to make the game run on older consoles or how to get third party developers to release halfway acceptable products, instead of tending to intersting issues like US train control systems, moving block signalling or fitting more vehicles with brake selectors or roadrunner systems.

    Collectibles, achievement points, medals or trophies don't do anything for me, especially if you just get them for.. not pushing the speed limit too severly and occasionally managing to stop your train in the greater vincinity of a station.
     
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  27. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think much will change this late on, more likely to be train sim world 3 post it notes to be discussed
     
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  28. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this; trophies are part of the console gaming experience so if you're going to release content on the Playstation, trophies should always be included.

    The problem with the AP system is that they've introduced it as an arbitrary method of gamification, giving casual gamers something to aim at, but they should have used it to drive the gameplay and incentivise learning and improving. Making higher points and gold trophies only available for runs using advanced systems (AWS/SIFA as a minimum) would give players a reason to start switching those systems on and learning how they work.

    As an example, there's a trophy on Rapid Transit for acknowledging the SIFA alarm 500 times, but other than that, I don't think there's any reference to SIFA in any of the tutorials and it's never actually required for any of the gameplay. When I first got TSW2020, I didn't have any clue about the safety systems and may never have searched to find out what the SIFA switch even did without the driver of that particular trophy (which, as it turned out, was one of the many glitched trophies which turned me off original game for quite a while).

    If the gold medals only unlocked when SIFA or AWS was active, and there was a trophy for getting 50 gold medals on the route, you'd straight away have far more people wanting to find out how to turn them on, learning how they work, potentially more people spending time on these forums, building a bigger community around the game, encouraging people to buy more routes, more income, more joy, an end to poverty and world peace, etc...
     
  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    When I did a playtesting session at DTG HQ I suggested a system similar to what Gran Turismo do as in "licenses", where you start with a training system and as you progress you open up systems and abilities and end up "passing out" to be a "qualified driver".
    This would be removed from the scenario and timetable system, but would bring novice players into the world of fully signalled and alarmed operating systems

    This has been "counted out" because DTG want casual players or new players to be able to pick up the game and play it without "being intimidated"...

    For my mind TSW ought to be a simulation game, so SIM FIRST, and that means switching on the alarms.
    If people want a "simple mode", fine, but I would say they should only ever get a silver if anything.
    A bit like back in the day when you only got the proper closing credits if you played on hard mode or higher...
     
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  30. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is in some part down to the millennial/snowflake players who want everything now and don't want to spend time unlocking content. In the first Gran Turismo, you'd start out with enough cash for a second hand Civic and work your way up from there. These days, you barely have to do anything before you're behind the wheel of a Porsche 918 with nothing really to work towards.

    I definitely think that limiting medals to silver without safety systems, or at least setting the points levels so you'd have to do everything else PERFECTLY to achieve a gold without them (could be as simple as increasing the regular distance AP by 25% if you have AWS or SIFA active, another 25% if you have PZB etc on), would make more people step up to a more 'Sim' level of gameplay, even if that was, in the end, just to help them get a trophy.
     
  31. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    Good old Gran Turismo which was ruined by the whole esports thing and online play only when they released GT sport. When they finally did release a campaign mode, they restricted the cars and HP you could use in the races so you couldn't max out a great car and outpace everyone. My personal go to car on the original GT was the Mitsubishi GTO until I got enough cash for the subarus etc.

    I agree with the millennials comment though. These days everyone wants it right now or free (you only have to look at the amount of posts in the forums demanding free content or severely discounted content because something got a little bit messed up).
     
  32. flghttrainsm#6320

    flghttrainsm#6320 Member

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    Even though I'm a serious simmer Its not massive issue for me the trophies , collectibles as it is something extra and people enjoy that enjoy that especially console players I aren't that keen them though ( however a toggle would be nice for on pc ) also for achievements as someone stated you should get higher medals for using systsem properly not speeding etc and I do like that you can get off the train work the stations and board any train you want in timetable mode. However we still need to be pushing on with simulation aspects and immersion such as sparks , train enertia , massively improved sounds ,more functionality and systems in trains such as working buzzers z radios etc not asking for perfection whether that be dtg or third the rive class 150 sounds are not right This is a train sim afterall. I just hope that things aren't being held back from advancement in the sim aspects due to last gen consoles in particular the small amount of memory and eight year old eight core custom jaguar cpus ( not negging on the last gen consoles just saying it as it is in regards how demanding simulation can be and the more simulation aspects you add the more demanding it gets ) after all the train sim franchise started on pc and had lot success there
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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  33. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I would welcome the chance to be able to completely switch off the whole gamut of achievement points, levels, medals etc. I don't need to be interrupted to be told I've earned 500 points just for tooting the darn horn. It's everywhere. I keep being reminded of the approximately 150,000 reward points I've apparently amassed in Steam. Curiosity led me to see what I could " buy " and it amounted to a bunch of stickers and avatars. T S has something of a points scoring system but you can easily ignore it. TSW is much more intrusive. This need to win points and prizes in a train sim completely escapes me. It's fine in Bingo and horseshoes but give me the ability to squish it in TSW. Please!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Densha de Go Professional back on the PS1 made you work for the better trains, by doing the simple runs first successfully you opened up the more complex timetables and interesting trains. I can see how it might be difficult to apply that to TSW though not really. You have the "career" mode where you progress by unlocking as above or more casual free play where there is less or no XP but the full timetable is available.

    Thing is a train sim is not like a FPS or RPG where you come up against an unassailable opponent or level you can't get through. Just plugging away and playing the game would gradually open more up.
     
  35. flghttrainsm#6320

    flghttrainsm#6320 Member

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    500 points for tooting the horning lmfaooo I can toot a horn me , hsh hey yepee , that does annouy me when I get points for pressing a buzzer or switches I pushed the reverser forward wow well done you here's more points lol I do try to ignore it though yeah that is true is TS which I still have a bunch of add one it's not in your face that much , I think there should be an option to toggle wether they are displayed in game where your loaded in a route but still come as I comply for console trophy and achievement requirements at the minimum , for pc surely it would not be too much work for an on or off toggle I could say for sure I don't have an in-depth knowledge of UE,4 , what about making hardcore version of TSW2 call it TSW2 professional etc for serious train simmers with all the fluff removed keep free roaming that is realistic as irl you board and deboas a train to switch services etc would be nice heck I pay bit extra for it than the standard TSW2 and I'd pay an extra £10 or so more if it mean trains with more realistic physics and realistic sounds dtg or any third party , I no it's not as simple or would be straight forward but more people would be happy causal players can Thier fun thing like collectables , trophies achievements and we train enthusiasts get the good stuff
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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  36. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    A simulator has proper manuals. Zusi and omsi are simulators, TSW is just a game to play trains with sadly, or at least it's becoming that.

    TSW had a good start, but then it changed direction and tried to appeal the console crowd. Now it's having a bit of an identity crisis with the whole achievement debacle.

    I don't care about achievements and mastery additions, but they are not a bad idea. I just wish that the game that defines itself as the ultimate train simulator was a bit more simulative. Achievements and the like should be an additional functionality, not at the core of the product.
     
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  37. Jack O'Track

    Jack O'Track Active Member

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    there are two main annoying things for me with TWS2 etc.
    1) all those rewards, points etc.
    2) i miss a simple dumbo start function with all those different locs and them irritating switches you have to find.

    With most train sims you'll find this. Playing with my dad's Marklin trains in my youth was far more fun.
    Many times after buying a new loc or module i again get fed up with the puzzling, and obliged walkabouts with a mouse etc.
    Probably why i stopped buying more stuff for now and switch to flight simming more often.
    Difficult too, but some are well made like IL2 Great Battles.
     
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  38. Blu

    Blu Active Member

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    I like the AP and steam and in game achievements, for someone like myself who currently has motivation issues to to Mental health it really helps along side my hobby of railways. What gets me down is when it doesn't work. :( I also like accuracy and also due to my health, I find issues that I could point out all day to DTG. But it would just be anal and not affect the operation of the sim.
     
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  39. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Gameplay leads to simming so it’s hard to separate the two.

    While I don’t mind collectables such as maps and posters, I heartily object to the littering of unnatural items.
    Such as cameras and unattended ice cream stands etc..
     

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