so i offend wonder if it too late for train sims competition. right now there few new train simulator games coming out like simrail2021. but it seem everyone like where they are whether it run 8 or trainz or tsw2 train simulator 2022, MSTS/Open Rail etc... alot of people invested in there own train sim they enjoy. so know matter what features next train sim game has a lot of people might not jump on board.
The competitors would need to offer a combination of better features, routes, and pricing to get people to completely jump ship from tsw2. Currently there's nothing else better in all aspects than tsw2 which is why it is the market leader in the train/rail gaming category. One thing TSW2 does better than any competitor is offer a variety to suit different types of gamer rather than something like Run8 for example which is a highly realistic simulation of American trains, and that doesn't appeal to casual gamers or casual rail fans who just want to play trains every now and then without having to worry about setting up the loco for 20 minutes before even moving. So, it's not too late for competitors, they just need to do something either different or better than TSW2 does. And of course, many people play more than 1 train game.
well i look at trainz cause there doing something that seem to have a lot of dlc and they seem to not be licensed restrictive. but i think now a days one thing is starting to be popular is multiplayer. so once full version sim rail 2021 get released i wonder if people from trainz will jump on board. trainz dose have multiplayer. and i think the next big thing is VR...will see. and i think you can port stuff from rail simulator to run 8. the es44ac is exactly the same at rail simulator.
Trainz probably has the best route building system with Surveyor, but I rarely drive in the game as it is unrewarding. No timetables, have to set the route as you go, unrealistic physics and generally poor sound. It is better for building model railway style routes. I quite like Diesel Railcar simulator, but sadly I don’t think it has the broad appeal to ever be a mainstream title. The route editor is incomprehensible. MSTS has really had its day, Open Rails has revived it a little but comes with its own baggage - a freeware open source project is totally subject to the vagaries of the authors. It also seems to get a bit over protected, when you look at discussions on other forums. I played Run 8 to death a while back, then burned out. Like Trainz there is no real structure to what you do and having to act as dispatcher as well as driver gets old fast, as does the simple A to B AI methodology. The industry feature held my interest for a while but again suddenly got boring. The developers are, to put it kindly, a bit eccentric as is their selling system - it would be better on Steam.
Okay, so here's what a serious competitor would need to do: 1. Clearly identify and more importantly understand which player audience they want. For the sake of this argument let's assume they want a hardcore train simulation audience. 2. They have to build out their worlds to a higher standard than currently available. This means getting solid representations of real world environments. No missing buildings, no incorrect textures/colours, nothing missing. The same is true, if not more so for track, signaling, ballast, OHLE and all other trackside elements. The world should also be "alive" - animals, people, traffic, aircraft, all should be visible and operating dynamically. 3. Locomotives and rolling stock will need to be close to photo realistic. Missing pieces of hardware will not be good enough. You're dealing with an audience who have extraordinary attention to detail - get a detail wrong and you run the risk of the loco being "literally ruined". 4. Sound. Everything from environment to vehicle sounds. These should be identical to the real world or again you run the risk of your release being rubbished. 5. Routes must be in excess of 100 miles long. They should contain timetabled services that can be operated for anywhere from 10 minutes to 4 hours. You should avoid creating any route that doesn't include all the branches, depots, sidings that are or were present on the real thing. In the event that your route is historic you should consider also releasing it with layouts from as many periods in history as possible. A new route for each region should be released every month. 6. A single route will not be sufficient. You'll need to cover anywhere from 6 to 12 very quickly covering all combinations of steam, diesel and electric traction with heavy and local freight, commuter and intercity passenger across multiple countries. Any country you do not include is far less likely to be interested. Each of these route options should contain at least half a dozen locomotives in multiple real-world liveries, and a multiple of that number of wagons/coaches etc 7. Gameplay should be dynamic in nature. Weather should be shifting realistically. Rerouting and delays to services should happen randomly in-game. 8. Full game editor with support for mods goes without saying. The editor should be easy to use but provide significant levels of depth. Ideally this would be the same editor used to create any routes made for the game, so the modding community can replicate your work. 9. Multiplayer with protection and moderation against obnoxious players. This should obviously run at as near zero latency as possible. 10. VR and peripherals. VR should support all available hardware. A plug and play option for any peripheral controllers a player wants to use should be provided. 11. It should run at a rock solid 60fps on every platform at resolutions up to 4k (with plans for 8k support). 12. Pricing. The lowest possible. You should also give old routes away for free. 13. It should be available on all major platforms. I could add more to this, but that's the challenge. A budget around the $100M mark might be enough to get started but some corners will be have to be cut, and therein lies the challenge: yes, I exaggerate in many cases above but with any corner that is cut you will lose a portion of the potential playing audience, and be constantly questioned about why it isn't included/possible. Train simulator enthusiasts are extremely difficult to satisfy - I may even go so far as to suggest impossible to satisfy - because it's not possible to recreate exactly what every train sim fan wants to the level of detail they'd like. At least, not without an investment costing 8+ figures. But, we're not talking about the perfect simulation here, just something that will dethrone TSW as the current best "all-rounder" (you can argue against me here, I'm allowed to be biased just as you are). This is why rail simulators that target a niche - Hmmsim, Run8, Diesel Railcar etc - have an enthusiastic audience but don't really go any further, because they're not trying to service the whole community, just a small portion of it. This focus allows them to be truly excellent in their field of specialisation. TSW is far from perfect, and as we've observed regularly sometimes we take two steps forward and one step back, but we'd like to hope we're going the right way overall while setting a high bar for a potential competitor to have to challenge. There's no doubt that other sims are better in some areas than we pull off, but none are trying to expand the appeal of the hobby on as many fronts as we're attempting. Maybe our aim is too broad and that drilling into fundamentals more would be beneficial, but were we to do so we'd lose some of the audience and appeal that we currently have. In all seriousness, if I were going to try and compete I'd take one popular end to end route from one country, US, UK or Germany (they're the biggest audiences), and I'd make a flawless experience with one train only. That would not be cheap to do and the cost of the sim would have to be high to both recoup investment and set up for expansion. If enough players were to buy it I'd be able to continue to expand on the platform. It'd be a very risky thing to do.
good points there. tsw2 set bar that some people look for in next train sim game..i think graphics wise and some gameplay aspects too. one aspect is easy content creation witch trainz has going. i look at rrmods facebook page and they released 20 different style of ac4400cw in short spand like few months. and some try to port from trainz to train simulator 2022 and it no easy task...in locomotive department, so they stick to what they like and good at. and if other train developers try to copy parts off very popular train game they could lead to lawsuits witch is not good.
You for get to mention the two most important aspects: 1. Dutch routes, as well as routes from all countries that have a rail network. 2. It should be very cheap, free would be the best.
That's exactly why I sometimes sit down for a few hours for live streams, or even just for recordings. And sometimes just to play. Precisely because TSW2 is doing very, very, very much right. Let's take very "simple" things like: You can get up. You can walk around anywhere (even if only limited to 1/2 km), even in the driver's cab. You can't in SimRail2021. You can learn TSW2 / TSW2020 because they were set up in several languages from the start. SimRail2021 does not. And to what extent this will develop to the release is completely unknown. If you press the brake, you do not set the emergency brake with TSW after pressing it for a second. With SimRail2021 yes, which is not exactly realistic if you only drive with a keyboard. Even the graphics at SimRail2021 could not really convince in terms of the environment. Sometimes you just left the basic structure of the map without at least dragging turf over it. It looks like you've taken the bare floor slab, a few trees on it and a few rails, signals and trees. These are points that TSW have simply learned and implemented from the start, through 9/12 years of development at TS. Well, there are still cards that are designed very unsatisfied, and are simply designed boring and listless. TSW / DTG is currently close to a switch and has to make a decision for the next few years. And I hope that we will find out about this decision in the short term. DTG, I wrote that a few days ago, is and will not remain a "newbie". It is no longer time to deal with "Yes, we have to experiment" to speak out wherever you want to go. After 12 years, DTG / TSW now stands for a switch. I think, regardless of the direction in which DTG will go, we will go the same way with the community and they will also come along. What DTG is doing wrong for me, however, is that they don't want to set any course. If DTG were to set the course very clearly now, I believe the customers would also be more satisfied. Switch: A) DTG decides to announce a "revision project" in 2022; Means that all design reviews will be completely revised. Let's take the Swiss routes from third-party providers or our own routes. Bald spots are completely revised and embellished. Likewise, train stations and everything related to design. For the revision, completely wrong track safety systems etc. are missing. Processing of the maps with the Passenger & Timetable (Rhein Ruhr, etc. German Routes, etc.) Everything that was written in Steam, Epic, Xbox, or other platforms will be completely revised and restored. Add to that the usual publications that you know. Switch B) DTG wants to break new ground. There are enough routes and trains that can be used. DTG decides to declare 2022 the year of the feature. Passengers not only spawn on the train, but can walk through and sit down accordingly. DTG sets up a roller system (control center, dispatcher, control, conductor, etc.) DTG makes first experiments with the MP (then DTG would be as far as TheBus at the same time (with the same software and version) DTG opts for this path, which means, however, that revisions (A)) will only take place this year 2022 if they are game-critical bugs. So let's assume that the passengers fall through the platform etc. So critical bugs on old / new cards DTG also publishes new routes and trains. There is the question of which switch, both DTG and the community want. I don't see much more ways because we saw at rush hour that multi-track driving is not a good idea. What I ask myself, however, is the more partners and routes you build, the greater the work should ever bring in your new feature. Let's take that: passengers walk through the train There are already dozens of moves that would all need completely new paths and scripts. The more trains there are, the more complicated it becomes. Rush Hour / Timetable has been the most sensible renewal for me so far, it's just fun, as long as there is no MP, having to wait when you're 5 minutes late and another train has just been let in. It would be great if it were available on all routes and not just at London Commuter, where it works to perfection. It will never be "too late", but of course I hope that DTG will still think about new things. Either way, we can't influence it anyway other than expressing our wishes in each new survey.
This isn't true. Every comment made on all the social platforms, forums, video channels, chat rooms etc that we're involved in have an impact. While we have a clear view of where we want to go, course corrections come from the community. Sound is arguably the hottest topic this year and we're taking major steps toward upping our game in that regard. We're in a constant battle to try and deliver new expansions to your game that you'll love while reinforcing the base of what it does. Expansions are essential as, not only do they give our route-building teams something to do, and yes of course they help pay the bills, but they keep players interested by offering fresh experiences. The challenge is in continuing forward momentum without slipping, and slips in quality definitely happen but we've got the right changes underway that will hopefully decrease them while improving standards overall.
One if the most important things I'm looking for is consistency. When I buy a route like Dresden, or an outstanding train like the 313, I want to be sure that the next release and the one after that is of the same high quality, with that same attention to detail. Will that be true of Cornwall, Sherman and HSC? I don't want to worry about quality level, just concern myself with content and whether it appeals to me. When I see that consistency, then I'll start looking for new features such as dynamic weather and random events. Honestly, I don't care about multiplayer or an editor, just as I ignore achievements and livery editor. Those that do are welcome. But first: consistently high quality, from DTG and 3rd parties. And please don't tell me that a price increase would not help to achieve that. After all these years of static prices for both franchises amid steady inflation, I simply don't believe it. Why is this so important? Because I don't think that TSW will ever face serious competition. As Protagonist said, the start-up or entry-level costs are just too great. And the catch up would be an almost insurmountable challenge. Unless you have at least nine figures you don't care about.
All DTG need to do is make specific country editions of TSW2 and make sure the dlc’s work as they should. If they do this then the franchise is pretty much spot on. This isn’t rocket science but for DTG it apparently is
I honestly wouldn't mind if Dovetail started putting this in all their press releases. There's an absolutely wild lack of patience in these forums, as well as perspective. It's a client-customer relationship in the end, with perhaps a little bit of community surrounding it but that's largely incidental for these purposes. This sounds harsh perhaps, but it's unavoidably the nature of the game. They can read our comments and we can briefly chat with them on this forum and elsewhere, but they do this to judge the market better, not because they're our friends who we can influence to make what we want. I don't think Dovetail are perfect but nor does anything they do suggest a company on the take. Every generational upgrade is properly announced, and never gives the sense of them simply giving up on old releases. Compare that with Metro Simulator, whose devs have just announced a sequel less than a year after the original came out of Early Access, with no benefits to owners of the first one. Imagine if TSW2 didn't allow porting of your TSW1 routes, with nothing being done on severely broken aspects of them for people who couldn't upgrade? Nothing like that has happened. Take also the Suedbahn Maribor route for Railworks - the included loco doesn't have functioning PZB, a key aspect of driving. The solution? Quietly release a stand-alone version, charging €15. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't recall anything DTG have done that compares to this. Most of the serious issues that have recently come up in this forum seem to be relating largely to third party releases. Does that mean DTG should refuse to work with third parties, or force them to work more closely with the main studio? You can probably therefore wave goodbye to non-UK routes for the foreseeable future, until COVID has normalised and the studio can afford to send teams out on extended research trips (and really, do you know how long they need for these? I sure don't. Wouldn't be surprised if a month isn't long enough to get everything done). All of these problems aren't Dovetail-specific - they would apply to any company in this market unless Microsoft decide to return to the fold (they won't - flight sims are sexy, unfortunately our hobby is not that). I'm very excited for Simrail but it won't be a direct competitor - the base price will probably be higher, there won't be such diverse DLCs, and the company themselves are clearly less client-friendly than Dovetail. So no, I wouldn't say it's 'too late'. It's probably just as viable as it has ever been, but getting everything right is just as hard as it's ever been too.
I suggested that quite early on, but it got shot down by someone who wanted to run their US trains on UK routes or some other such combination. There was also quite a lot of snowflakery about having to spend 20 seconds closing one app and opening another to change countries. It would create a natural issue for cross-border operations (if any were to exist in future) if Germany became separated from its neighbours, but that could be solved by bundling Europe together. Same with North America to include US/CA. It's then just the "off the rails" fans to pacify. Don't forget: Train simulator enthusiasts are extremely difficult to satisfy.
Do the countries need to be separated out though? Couldn't they just unofficially divide them by selling bundled editions, as with TS? It's all the same engine so I'm not sure what difference it would make putting a hard border between editions.
I think the whole discussion is moot anyway now - if the "hot mounting" solution that they're looking at works, there should be no issue with all of the DLC living under the same single app. Other than the ongoing issue with the clunky menu interface taking ever-longer to navigate to the route you want.
will see how simrail 2021 will be once released. yes simrail2021 will have editor and mp but no vr yet.
The competitors would need to offer a combination of better features, routes, and pricing to get people to completely jump ship from tsw2. Currently there's nothing else better in all aspects than tsw2 which is why it is the market leader in the train/rail gaming category. One thing TSW2 does better than any competitor is offer a variety to suit different types of gamer rather than something like Run8 for example which is a highly realistic simulation of American trains, and that doesn't appeal to casual gamers or casual rail fans who just want to play trains every now and then without having to worry about setting up the loco for 20 minutes before even moving. So, it's not too late for competitors, they just need to do something either different or better than TSW2 does. And of course, many people play more than 1 train game. __________________________ Gordon Bullard & Company
