Open Letter To Rivet

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by paintbrushguy, Dec 7, 2021.

  1. paintbrushguy

    paintbrushguy Well-Known Member

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    Hello all,
    When the Arosa line released, I was extremely excited to have the first narrow gauge and first mountain railway for TSW 2. At first, gameplay seemed passable, but within minutes flaws appeared. Many more uncovered themselves, including but not limited to the dreadful sounds, physics and timetable. There has still not been a fix for this frankly worthless route, even after many, many months of time to do so. So after too long a time, but still, better late than never, Rivet decides to patch a few things. On top of fixing the route breaking bugs, they announce a new pack to bring the excitement back. AND CHARGE FOR IT!!!

    In short, it is appalling that your compensation for a literally unplayable waste of space and money is more money for one single carriage and some lights, plus liveries that have already existed in the designer.

    Rivet, fix your game, pun intended. Make the pack free.

    And to everyone else, what are your thoughts. If I’m being selfish, please let me know!
     
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  2. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Personally, despite its flaws, I've been able to enjoy Arosa. The only bug that ruined my enjoyment was the acceleration bug that Rush Hour introduced (so lets be honest and blame DTG for braking Arosa, instead of blaming Rivet for this one.)

    I'm considering buying the Arosa 'expansion' pack to show support. I'd love to see them create more Swiss narrow gauge content. Although I personally think the pack doesn't really hold much interesting content.
     
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  3. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Agreed on the first, disagreed on the last sentence. Yeah fix your game, we payed for that. But that pack is still a piece of different work and there is no way to justify demanding this to be for free. Doing a carriage in TSW isn't like a hobby job or something, it probablys needed two-three months of development.
     
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  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    We should probably also add the 1938 stock and WCL to the list. And yes it is a bit of a nerve charging for additional content on something still broken. They could have done it free as a goodwill gesture.
     
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  5. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I’d never expect anything for free. Very happy to pay the going rate BUT I do expect it to be done to a good quality. The 150 is an appalling mess physics wise. Not to mention the sounds
     
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  6. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Let’s wait and see whether any fixes arrive with Arosa or not. I don’t expect anything to be free. But do agree that you shouldn’t release extra content on something that is broken.

    For me the essentials are to stop the loco jumping forward (this could be a core issue as it’s only happened since 4.26) and the timetable.

    The scenery isn’t game breaking, we knew about that and some of us still bought it.

    Personally I only play in the snow and I don’t feel it’s that bad then. Especially if you stay in the cab.

    If the loco isn’t fixed, I just don’t see the point of this DLC.
     
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  7. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I know exactly that the very first reaction would be "Ohh they can do this useless stuff for free, but have no time for bug fixing? sHaMe!!11!!"
     
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  8. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    The hopeium addiction on this forum man. :D
    :D:D
     
  9. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    "Alright guys. We're going to do some fixes to the Arosa timetable, and make a small pack for separate release... Oh and both are going to be free, so we can't pay you or else we'll likely go bust."

    "We're going to do a pack at the same timethat we'll get paid for, right?"

    "No" (Basing that off nothing being on the roadmap)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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  10. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Im happy that the timetable (and hopefully - although not mentioned unless Ive missed it) the physics to stop the train lurching forward from the off.

    I'd also be happy to pay for a DLC that includes additional services, additional coach and some special liveries.

    But Im only going to purchase the latter assuming the fix is to my satisfaction. No fix no purchase.
     
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  11. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Sums up my opinion, too
     
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  12. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Can we stop bashing Rivet? Not buying stuff is clear. But I enjoyed Arosa despite the issues it has. I think the acceleration issue should be fixed anyway. Apart from that the route is not unplayable. You may not like it, but that is a different thing.You can go on bashing Rivet, but keep in mind we need third party developers, especially if you live outside the UK, US or Germany. Contrary to what some people think (including DTG) probably, this is about 90% of the world population.
     
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  13. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    You must not have been around when TSW launched or else you would be asking for all TSW2 content for free.
     
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  14. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I agree! It’s sad for the majority of people who enjoy Rivets content. If they can complain about Rivets “lack of quality” then they need to do that for all of TSW2 content, as none of it is perfect. Thankfully for Rivet we have received some unique dlc. The more developers working on TSW2 the better, I would rather have the option to buy something then to not have it all.
     
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  15. sergio volodstok

    sergio volodstok Active Member

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    I agree very much.

    There's no way I'd ever buy a livery pack for an engine that's broken.
     
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  16. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Please refer to my signature. I supported Rivet, I fed back to Rivet, they have my money, I have a route with trees and an unrealistic 150.

    I shall not jump into bed with them again until they tidy up the mess they keep leaving on the floor. There's Arosas super jumping train one side, IOW issues the other, the 150, the list goes on.
    I'm all for supporting a TP developer, if it's right.

    I’m not really sure it’s good practice to publicly state customer feedback is irritating either when a customer believed the route (rightly/wrongly) may have been missing a platform. It’s unprofessional.

    078F6FB5-BF71-4616-A2E5-76D05FAAEB34.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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  17. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I can’t find any examples of Rivet providing us with details of a planned post-launch update for their routes or DLC. I have watched all the preview streams pre-launch for Rivet games content and it was exactly what I expected. Yes, their content has bugs that I wish were fixed too, but I also understand this is a smaller developer that has only worked on three routes for TSW. The same goes for the other 3rd party developers. It took DTG a whole games worth of content to actually start providing meaningful updates to their content as well which you could also argue was much more broken. My tip would be don’t purchase a product without the proper research.
    Also, not anywhere in Jaspers post does he say he is irritated with a customer so you should read the entire post, as well as what he was replying to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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  18. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, god forbid we complain about a product we buy. :D:D:D:D
    In the world of capitalism/consumerism the feelz of the seller > customer satisfaction I'm sure.
     
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  19. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I have nothing against Rivet and I like this livery pack and the Christmas theme, I think it's very nice.
    But I find it a bit strange that after eight months of silence and neglect they decided to release something paid for this route.

    There was a lot of criticism from the community and they decided not to give support to focus on other projects. And zero communication.
    And now yes, promotional videos every few days because they want our money.

    If they had fixed the major problems and now decided to bring additional material it would be different but I have not been able to play for eight months, so I am a dissatisfied customer. Now it's no longer enough for me to just fix the timetable, I expect to see a lot of other things fixed in this route if they want me to continue to trust them.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There's a difference between

    a) "Excuse me, my steak is rather overdone, could I trouble you to bring me another?", and

    b) "MY ^%$#& STEAK IS GARBAGE, YOU PIECE OF *&^%(&*^, JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN THIS HORRIBLE &*^%*&^%$ DUMP!!!!!"
     
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  21. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I don't know Jasper's typical pattern of speech but I would personally give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was a error in translation connotation.
    How a user is behaving towards a company should not affect how their customer support treats customers.

    Cheers
     
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  22. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Right. God forbid, I enjoyed a good product I purchased. The great part of capitalism is you, the consumer has a choice. Your voice should be heard as one too, writing dramatic break up letters to Rivet for example. We can’t act like post-launch updates fixing non-game breaking bugs is the normal for TSW because it’s not. Not until very recently and DTG literally had to hire a whole separate team just to work on fixing past routes.
     
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  23. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree, but I would also suggest just because your a customer doesn’t mean you can harass or threaten staff on their forums.
    EDIT: I found what the response was to from Jasper. What exactly did Jasper say that made you feel they were acting in any hostile way towards a customer? All I see is Rivet taking the time to answer someone on the forums and being genuine. Jasper even mentions how he was irritated that the team might have forgot a platform on their route and which looks like a happy response from the customer.
    10BBA110-09C0-4BC1-9FE5-D8434A564406.jpeg
    20C47787-F79D-451A-B49C-40A914AFB2FE.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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  24. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’ve just completed Rivet’s player survey. There is a section to add any other comments or suggestions at the end of it. It’s a good chance to calmly tell Rivet how you feel.
     
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  25. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Jasper is German, right? If so, I can chime in as a German myself and would agree with Callum B. here. The German word irritiert (which is obviously related to the English irritated) is often used to express bewilderment rather than annoyance in German. If a German finds something irritating (spoken/written in German obviously), they are confused by something. In other words, Jasper probably wanted to express confusion as to something this big possibly being missed rather than wanting to express annoyance at customer feedback.

    Just my 2 cents as a native speaker of German :)
     
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  26. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    I've been saying that all along on this forum. Don't buy if you don't like it. But some of you act as if you are this tolerant towards any other company in your lives.
     
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  27. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    :D:D:D:D
    "Excuse me, you didn't change my oil and you emptied my brake fluid, as a result my engine locked up and my brakes failed and I mowed down a family of four...could I trouble you to fix my car properly after I get out of jail?"

    :D

    I agree with you. And voting with your wallet is the best method. But this company does have a history.
     
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  28. appledates#4945

    appledates#4945 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, can you imagine someone doing that to a $30,000 car, anyway. You are correct, although what “history” are you referring to exactly? I wouldn’t say there’s much of a history. If we want to talk about their first release on TSW, which they actually made some of the biggest changes and updates to a post launch dlc that we had seen at the time for the DB204, going as far as adding a scenario that was over an hour long.
     
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  29. zefreak

    zefreak Active Member

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    I dont like the hate that Rivet or Jasper get. Their routes and locomotives have issues but so do DTGs. Something to consider, nobody is making DLC for a train simulator as a get rich quick scheme. Any team dedicated to supporting a niche market like train sims will get my support even with mixed quality, within reason. If they werent fans of trains or simulators and were the cartoonish villains some of you think they are, they would be spending their energy making gacha games or the like.
     
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  30. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    Don't buy if you don't like it.yes me too
     
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  31. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Then your comment regarding Dave is irrelevant and in poor taste, in my opinion.
    This is what I suspected. I am learning German, so I know many of the verbs (verärgern, nerven, etc.) but do not know all the nuances and connotations. I think Jasper is just being friendly here. Besides, even when he does present unfavourable news, there is a common saying in English: "don't shoot the messenger."

    Cheers
     
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  32. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    A history of DTG releasing rushed addons that they either delay in fixing or do not fix altogether. For example, it took them 7 years to fix the Northeast Corridor (and the flying cars) for legacy TS. 7 years!
     
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  33. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    I would not want to get too deep into this controversy, because I find the negativity in this forum makes me queasy. However, I suspect one of the problems is the limited audience for this simulation and the economics are skewed. I am not a marketing expert, but the effort required to build a route/loco is considerable and prices do not reflect that - maybe because they have to compete with other games/simulations for the customer. If you take the average price for an aircraft add-on for a flight simulator, it is 2 or 3 times the cost of a DTG add-on. You may say an aircraft is complex, but in terms of 3d design or systems emulation, probably X-Plane is the only program which has anything as demanding as Simugraph - the rest use look-up tables, not physics. So, you want more, pay more - but then be more demanding (but please - polite).
     
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  34. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    they really haven’t shown improvement
     
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  35. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Demand determines price. Not effort.
    Basic finance.
     
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  36. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    I think that a letter that is adress to Rivet would be much better placed on the Rivet web site than on the DTG web site, at least it would guarantee that Rivet will see it, posting it on the DTG web site almost guarantee that Rivet will not see it
     
  37. paintbrushguy

    paintbrushguy Well-Known Member

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    I was more hoping DTG would see it, rivet wouldn’t do anything even if they saw it ngl
     
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  38. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Well-Known Member

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    And why would DTG care about a letter for Rivet
     
  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    It's not too lively there traffic wise.
     
  40. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and most of the time they respond to all threads
     
  41. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I consider making Swiss routes an improvement over the usual same old UK/DE/US content.
     
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  42. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    "Demand determines price. Not effort.
    Basic finance."

    Yes, in Economics textbooks which assume a basic perfect market and which ignore supply. In this case, we do not have such a market - DTG dominance of the TrainSim market is offset by competition from thousands of other games which might attract the attention of customers, most of whom have restraints on funds. I have no idea how sophisticated are DTG pricing models.
     
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  43. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Facts. There are also more train-sims now than ever before. With new ones on the way like SimRail. Most of which are non-DLC games whose price is less than the price of one DTG loco. One should never assume they've cornered any market. There will always be someone to fill the void.
     
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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In two very different businesses, on occasion, I have been obliged to tell certain customers that their business was no longer welcome (in one egregious case, I told him that if he set foot on the property again I would have the police remove him).

    Some customers simply aren't worth it.
     
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  45. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Just seen on FB that Rivet have a survey out, so why not constructively tell them what is important to you?

    [​IMG] bit.ly/RG-Survey2021
     
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  46. paintbrushguy

    paintbrushguy Well-Known Member

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    I think also, rubbing salt in the wound, DTG making their new ACS pack free is very nice. And that’s not even on an unplayable route!
     
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  47. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, because it only contains one livery. It's not really comparable to a pack containing 5 new liveries, a new coach and a new timetable.
     
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  48. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You really can't compare the 2. I actually think the price of the DLC is fair even before any discounts/sales.
    From the stream the only concern is the jolting is still present although even this seems improved.
    Good to hear that the timetable has been fixed and the new liveries look amazing and are far more complex than the ACS livery.

    I also noted Jasper seemed far more confident and knowledgable about the improvements compared to previous streams.
    I honestly think that they are certainly moving in the right direction and making giant strides right now.
     
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  49. Bradley

    Bradley Well-Known Member

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    £9.99 is a rip off in my opinion
     
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  50. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    As a business owner, I agree with your comment. I have the right to refuse my services to badly behaving customers and have used that right on a few occasions. Different circumstances, but being a stable business, I took exception to the way an owner treated his horse, they were off my property before sundown :) .
     
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