Am I The Only One Quite Dissappointed In The Locos In Sherman Hill?

I am talking about their (lack of) complexity and functionality, that is:

Train length counter (SD70ACe): non-functional (quite sad in a DLC that takes pride in featuring super long trains - I can't see how making it functional should be a problem, given that the game needs the data for the speed limit display on the training-wheels HUD anyway);
Speed control (SD70ACe): non-functional;
Integrated Function Display (IFD, SD70ACe): extremely reduced (allows but two simple settings for the air brake system plus the dimmer, even though teasing you with several captions that look promising, but are not more than that, captions);
Distributed power: extremely reduced (non-functional on the IFD, lead unit at the rear gets set up automatically after simply pressing Banking COMM in the front lead);
Cab signaling/train control: quite dysfunctional (sometimes the red-over-yellow restricting aspect limits you to 15 mph even after passing several clear trackside signals, flashing and non-flashing yellow trackside signals sometimes translate to a green clear, sometimes to a yellow approach and sometimes to a red-over-yellow restricting, a yellow-over-green in-cab aspect never seems to show; named "CCS" on the aspect display unit, "CSS" on the IFD on the SD70ACe; the ATC half on the SD70ACe being completely dead anyway);
Accelerometer (SD70ACe): at least slightly dysfunctional (lagging badly, you seem to get the values of half a minute ago);
Consist Effort indicator (SD70ACe): non-functional (again, quite sad in a DLC that takes pride in featuring super long trains with many locos);
AMP meter/Effort indicator (SD40-2): partly dysfunctional (reading brake effort as traction effort);
Alerter (SD40-2): non-functional (you can close the Warning Devices fuse, but there is no Alerter button for you to push, the safety pedal you can see is not functional).

The route and the vehicles look very nice, no question at all. But "driving-a-train-wise" this is two steps back even behind the standard of complextity that is featured in good ol' Sand Patch Grade and on its locos (with - at least in a way - working accelerometers, alerters, speed control and distance counters - at least on some locos - and the need for a DP setup that merits the name).

Is this the way the game is supposed to go? Flashy by appearance but simplified/basic in function?

 

Totally agree with you, i didnt test the US locos, since i drive more the uk stock. I was disappointed in rivets 150 about its features. (No battery switch, no local start procedures from outside, no working guard panel).

But overall the west cornwall route its worth its money in my opinion. Same as sherman hill.

I personly dont like released locos with lack of features, lets me question my step going from ts to tsw2. On the other side the discussion starts with what you up to pay for it, so here my solutions.

1. Sell advanced versions of locos, with a high amount of additional features over the basic game play (thats why the g6 is underpriced in my opinion)

2. Dtg should not sell new routes with new locos, so it allows 20 or 25 euro for a separate loco, and 30 for the new route.
Contra here is dlcs would depend on other dlcs.

3. Higher the price to allow development extended features, im willing to pay.

As i saw first how detailed the cl.20 and cl.31 are made, i decised to leave ts behind me after spending a ton of cash. Now i have every tsw2 addon.

So your text in the end of your post should be a clear message to devs.

Im not 20 anymore and surrounded by trains every single day, if this peace of software takes direction of going back to basic features, ill stop and spend my time somewhere else, its that esasy

 

I recognize all these shortcomings and look forward to TSW loco's with all those features. However, I must admit to really enjoying the SD70ACe; it might be nudging the F7 out as my favorite North American loco.

Granted the sound mod posted here:
https://www.trainsimcommunity.com/m...unds/i1873-sherman-hill-locomotive-audio-mods
helps.

But, I love the physics and (Oh, how sweet it is!) the horn is awesome!

 

i very like SD70ACE

 

Have to agree there. I'm having a blast with the route, but these issues quicky became obvious.

I can understand the simplified control screen and banking comms setup, but the length counter would be nice to have, especially when SPG have it, for example.

Other issues are the overly bright outside from the SD70's cab, sanding not doing anything and the rear window wipers clean rain in a mirrored way.

The SD40 is even worse. No warning devices, cab windows too dark, chains not animated at the crossover connections and weird sound delay when cold starting the locomotive.

 

It's rather distressing that the CSX GP38-2, years ago, had a fully functioning EOTD display, but more recent locos don't.

 

Looks like tsw is going back to the old "only 3 possible buttons are working" strategy.

Would like to have a response from dtg about that. Its 3 steps forward and 2 steps back.

If this is dtgs strategy with no advanced features not even available as payware, then im out. I thought release desasters like skyhooks 187 are exceptions, no thank you if dtg start to make short cuts.

Feature releases will tell, i mean right now it looks like they made those advanced locos to get people from ts to tsw. Weird fact is, that there is no loco dlc from dtg on the roadmap.

From another perspective: even if the timetable mode only uses the basic features of a loco, as soon user made scenarios are possible, the game play possibilities are endless with advanced options.
If i want to make a rescue & towing scenario, just basic elements arent enough. As reference i take the cl.20, which is detailed so much, you can even turn off the main battery in the outside box. Or the cl66 has a fully functional fusebox.

 

Next dtgs new train is the br 612 of the rampe. I definetly will have a look on its features.

Maybe this very topic of the thread should been asked on tomorrows roadmap stream, its concerning me and let me question my invest to be perfectly honest

 

AirFlowMeter

 

Looks just like DTG barely even care about American routes and locomotives. They put much more effort into British and German routes, at least it looks like that. Initially, Sherman Hill was something that I thought was right what I need to like American trains. But now that I tried it, I couldn't even make the trains with DPU move, and it's not my problem as I was doing everything right like in the tutorial of SD70ACe. How someone higher up said, it is 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. Release was groundbreaking from what I saw - everybody who got it loved the route. But right after it everybody started noticing how "not-that-good" it was on the side of the locomotives and rolling stock. I mean, we didn't even get any true American containers for double stacks! Just ONE taken from DRA, and also Hamburg Sud and Hapag Lloyd. While ONE is sometimes seen in America as far as I know, HOW THE HELL DID HAMBURG SUD GET THERE? And for it not to look to awkward, they filled all empty spots with non-licensed and non-liveried containers. Sand Patch on the other hand is much better in my opinion, when it got last upgrade over a year before Sherman's release. Hopefully their future content will not be something that is, like Sherman Hill, good only when it is teasered.

 

That's what happens when you spend more effort on the grass than the train.

 

Hamburg-Süd containers to appear here in the US.

 

Though I can bet anything there is no way to see a full 100 car UP train loaded with Hapag Lloyd, Hamburg Sud and ONE containers only

 

I would like to see more buttons, more to learn, more procedures.
I feel that now most, not all trains I can run hud and relatively soar or penalty three. I’d love more MFD functionality

 

This really. DTG have always shyed away from doing anything with the MFDs post the original SPG (and even there the implementation was quite basic). At the very least functions like the lenght counter should not be lost. Especially with the longer trains, that would have been truly useful.

 

What's interesting is they made almost every switch/button interactive in the SD70, something that really hasn't been done since SPG but then the MFDs are bare minimum, and only the left one works. The length counter and speed control, things the AC4400 has, were skipped? On a positive note, I was pleasantly surprised to see the horn, bell, and sander icons react to their usage.

Otherwise I agree, more features would be nice - functional length counter, speed control, DPU setup (along with actual DPU simulation), locomotive monitor tab (all that data is in Simugraph, shouldn't be a lot overhead work to do something like that). I realize adding these features adds some dev time, but they go a long way in enhancing the experience and separating this game from its predecessor.

 

When Boston was released I saw all the MFD info on screen in that and I thought it was another great step forward, like night lighting, like the big time table it gets stripped back the next route. I know a fair amount of this was static but it was like a tech demo of what can be achieved and what development time can immediately take away next route

 

Unfortunately, Matt hinted that this is how it works when the missing cruise control on the ACS-64 came into question. If there's a lever/button, it gets done because anyone can spot a non-functional lever. If it's in an MFD, it costs more to do (MFD screens and setup in addition to actual function) and fewer people will spot it or be able to call it out compared to a physical lever/button. Thus, MFDs are usually skipped or bare minimum only.

 

That sentence out of a customer perspective would be: it costs less, if i spend less money in dlcs and get them on sale or not at all....

Common, at least dtg should consider a payware "advanced range" for people who are interested.
This locos would share the same a.i physics, so nothing would be affected arround the feature upgrade.

Post edit: i look to the experience of a2a simulations, which are leading in creating flight sim ga content.

They had 2 packages for each plane.

1. The basic version for 20 dollar
2. Full modelrd version called accusim with most accurate physics available for a home pc. Price 50 dollar.

The interesting thing is, that the basic version doesnt exist anymore. Today you only get the accusim version, i guess people just want the real thing.

 

Are you serious?

When the CSX route was released there was a lot of stuff like the PHYSICS that was finally fixed!! I'm so happy.

These smaller details... I'm sure you can find some modder around the place to add in these glorious tidbits you desire.

I am not disappointed at all.

And I am a real life Locomotive operator/driver/engineer and have used the exact same counters and technology.

Unless you can find some serious hard core railfans (about 1000 of them! who are willing to pay $75 MORE for the route.

The route is 'as is'. DTG do a great job listening.

If you want a full fledged simulator go ahead, do it yourself.

Otherwise I never heard these sort of complaints in Train Simulator!!! I'm wondering why such great routes are released and out come the complaints!

If one little thing is wrong with the route, you never hear the end of it!!!

DTG blocked the release of a product in November because of people like you.

If you don't want it, don't buy it.

Let them release it and DTG will update it.

 

Well you made a good point, for the price we pay the content is worth its money by far.

On the other side whats wrong with hardcore simmers are willing to pay extra for additional details?

Nobody is asking dtg to make anything for free, so i like the fact this topic gets discussed.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Driving the train with no HUD is basically impossible due to the limitations in the functions available.

Route gets A B+ but the locos get a D-

From now I will avoid any US freight DLC which excludes these basic functions.

 

Poor dtg they will never satisfy some people.
Granularity has costs.
You want more specific details, yet dtg has had to warn users to reduce graphic settings to improve framerates, while consoles have reduced train lengths.
Look at the trouble Rivet had with Arosa by putting the emphasis on vehicle detail to the detriment of scenery graphics.

All routes have to be balanced and compromises made.
I can live without speed control and train length counters etc., as I’d rather have better views out the windows.
Yes the higher details are possible but only 5% would be able to play the route on current machines.

 

You clearly don't drive with no HUD then, the lack of a working train length counter renders the route undriveable without the HUD.

The frustrating thing is SPG had this feature and it's been removed from the newer (meant to be) modern route. Its a backwards step and for me that is concerning

 

This is such a bad line of reasoning, people can be good at criticizing things without actually being involved in the thing they criticize. For example Siskel and Ebert were not masters at filmmaking themselves, but are easily some of the most influential and respected film critics.

 

Nobody is expecting dtg to model every valve, thats impossible anyway related to its use.

But as many people here mention we talk about features were present 2 years ago. While there are players using the hud maybe never get in use of those advanced features, there are also a lot of simmers like the "no hud" experience.

So no matter i think its not about complaining, its about dtg to remind there are also people interested in advanced features, and that means not going to implement everything, but at least not cut back what was there aleady.

 

I most certainly am not playing Sherman without the hud, nor indeed with it.
Long US freight routes are frankly boring.
I’m sorry you can’t play the route hudless, but you have to accept you are in a minority.
Most of us need the hud.
I’ve tried it on east coast way using your guide, it’s fun, but I don’t have the time to learn the majority of routes in enough detail.

I would suggest that if dtg had previously Included some details which were omitted on Sherman, it was probably for a valid reason.
The most likely one being performance.

 

I'm afraid the previous post assumptions have no factual support. A more detailed MFD would have little or no impact on performance, since Simugraph is already calculating the variables involved and all US freight locos using glass screens have more or less the same screen, so it is a one-time development effort.

"Otherwise I never heard these sort of complaints in Train Simulator!!! I'm wondering why such great routes are released and out come the complaints!"

Maybe the complaints were not in TS because there are developers in TS who truly know how to program MFDs. Take a look at the AC4000CW by Searchlight Simulations to see what is possible (there are limitations - you have to use rolling stock by Searchlight for proper functionality and depth of sound simulations is limited by the game engine). There is no excuse for the failure of DTG to at least match that level of detail, other than development time - but once done for one loco/route, it should be possible to have it in all future releases - and also layer it on to older routes. I suspect that DTG is using the 'boilerplate' approach to loco building (I intentionally do not use the word 'development')

 

No, lol. It's clear that certain features are missing because of lack of time or care, not performance reasons. How would a simple length counter cause any performance issues, when all it has to do is calculate how much the train travels forward?

And how is that a valid reason for not providing proper simulation elements? By that logic they might as well completely remove physical signalling and trackside signs from the game, as the majority will be just watching the HUD anyway. Just because you personally don't care, it doesn't mean noone should either.

As it has been said above, train length counter has been a feature since SPG, it would be a pretty obvious choice to include it in the route with the longest trains in the game.

 

I really doubt that a train length counter would be that much of a performance hit by any stretch of the imagination.

While I doubt I would ever drive Hudless as some desire to do, I feel this basic feature should be included since it has been on other locomotives. Especially on mile long freight drags - you can't count telegraph poles as you can on shorter consists and on routes that have the telegraph (telephone lines these days ) still running along the track. Also since the removal of the caboose and manned helpers on the rear of most consist, there isn't a person that could radio the clearance of a switch so you could throttle up. No, I am afraid the distance counter is a crucial function to have to be able to simulate American freight correctly. I would hope that DTG sees that as well and eventually corrects this over sight in these locomotives.

 

I'd be interested in the thought process by DTG on why this feature was removed personally. I'm not programmer but I can't believe this was affected performance greatly

 

It's worth noting that Matt flat out said that one of the reasons they got rid of the gradient profile from TS was to have people concentrate less on the HUD. So they clearly care at least slightly about the game being playable without needing to rely on the HUD. To say that we should just suck it up and that we shouldn't care is frankly a borderline ludicrous statement when DTG themselves have pretty much said they care about the issue in the past.

 

Had to double check for my own sanity, but I found the article I was thinking of where he mentioned this, so might as well link it.

Rush Hour - Creating Immersion

The section should be right around the middle of the article.

 

Everybody has its own playing style. With tsw it allows an exponential choice of doing your service.

I drove with hud a long time, and the first time i tried without, this experience caught me. The true immersion benefit is, that your mistskes can have consequences. Had a unexpected full emergency brake of my heavy tanker train before stalybridge because i confused the tunnels on my speed chart. Needed to come from 55mph to 15mph in a short time.

Since the hud tells you everything, for me personaly it became a bit too linear this way.

But hey, for a reason there is the F1 key

 

That's not an excuse for not having a functional cruise control (The real life AC4400 and SD70ACe also have them, like nearly all modern engines).

 

Most german locomotives in the game also have them implemented, if I'm not mistaken. So surely US trains should as well.

 

Not saying it is. Don‘t shoot the messenger

 

The complaint’s are like medieval discussions on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
For the vast majority of players they are irrelevant.
What you leave out is just as important as what you include when designing anything.

i guess I’m a glass half full sort of guy who believes dtg genuinely care as opposed to those who believe they are money obsessed corner cutting capitalist running dogs…

 

My intention was neither to paint DTG as "money obsessed capitalists", nor the game or the Sherman Hill DLC as bad.

I am quite sure DTG are still holding true to their "By Enthusiasts For Enthusiasts" crede they have on their website. And the game as such and the Sherman Hill DLC are really nice and worth their money.

Still I like to think to be entitled to ask for some simulation, on the loco and the signaling, that enables me to play the game properly without the in-game help thingies, like the HUD or the speed and signal preview. Especially since the game never stops to claim to be - and really can be that way - "immersive". (I have no idea how many players play without the HUD, but in my opinion everybody should try, it is so much more fun.)

And of course I do not expect everything to be perfect and simulated. But I think it is fair to expect some sort of progress and improvement over the releases, not only in graphics, performance and physics, but also simulation-wise. And at any rate no cutting back on this end. (Or things that worked perfectly fine on e.g. the previously released SD40-2/SD40's, like the AMP meter for the dynamic brake, the alerter or the animation of the crossings, suddenly not working on the latest SD40-2).

 

Agree, no one on this thread was expecting new loco features to included on Sherman Hill but I don't think many expected a major regression in the number of and functionality of features included. It certainly never dawned on me to check that things like a working distance counter would not be featured prior to making my purchase. I certainly also don't think it is unreasonable to air our disappointment in a mature and constructive manner.

It's akin to working signals being removed from the game and then others saying "well it's on the HUD and it would only negatively affect performance if it worked, just drive from the signal display on the HUD and stop complaining".

 

Train SImulator was very limited in its core engine and 32 bit exe.

We now have something that as far as modern comouting goes, is a s close to what we want. We might not have everything, but unless you have a $2000 i9 very fast CPU machine I think its good value for money.

Hey teenagers who have parents with limited fiscal budgets want to use this and good on them.

They would definitely appreciate not having to buy a single route for $120 or somethiing.

Enjoy. Merry Christmas.

 

We dont need a $2000 i9 to run SPG with the functionalities we are referring to, so your agruement has zero validity.

 

DTG included working train-length counters in CSX-HH and GWE, the two oldest routes in TSW, back before i9s even were a thing.

 

I really enjoy US freight operations and was quite excited by Sherman Hill and the prospect of BNSF routes. However, until DTG bring the locos back up to a spec that at least includes slow speed and train length counters, amp meters etc (and H... will freeze over before that happens), I will be buying no further US DLCs.

 

I really hope Sky Hook read this thread, realise how important these features are and make a change to implement (if not already) on HSC otherwise thats going to be another route struck off my to buy list.

 

Sherman Hill is a DTG production. Skyhook did Cane Creek.

 

Sky hook are doing horse shoe curve are they not? Which is what I was referring to as HSC - maybe I've the acronym wrong?

 

Ah, gotcha. My bad.

 

You shouldn't have jinxed it.. now the speed boards got set to zero..

 

The ac64 from boston sprinter seems created with a lot of details incl. Engine room.

But i havent tested the locomotive computer functionalities.

I messed around today with the us rolling stock. I came across, that the canadian gp9 and clinchfield sd40 get started from the cab.

Maybe somebody could answer if there were (are) units equiped with that, except modern ones? I thought you have to prime and start them from the racket in the engine room like in the csx sd40/gp38-2