Current State Of The Game (spoiler: Not Good)

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Task, Dec 20, 2021.

  1. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Why would anybody prefer TSW rather than TS? Train simulator is superior game to TSW. This especially because of the third party support. So I don't see anything which would TSW currently offer to convince me to play it over TS. P.s. only if I don't have PC :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
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  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    TS won’t load on my PS5. That’s one reason I prefer it but I am outside of the PC bubble.
     
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  3. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I asked a question for the end of year stream about how many people work on the game and whether that has increased since TSW2 launched. If they aren't reinvesting to grow the team then things that seem ambitious now will always remain on the edge. If they can grow the team then some of these tech demos can be made as standard features across all routes and we will have a much better experience and see the game grow in a stronger way. It feels like they are on the edge of their capabilities all the time hence the multitudes of bugs and glitches that appear and the performance which is right on the edge of being acceptable for lots of people and for many too far the other way.
     
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  4. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    This. The timetable, aka drive to a schedule, any service throughout the day, on custom weather.
    upload_2021-12-21_11-48-31.png
     
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  5. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much. In TS each route coming with 5-10 scenarios max is nothing compared to TSW's 24-hour timetable mode.
     
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  6. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    All things considered, TS in my time of playing it (roughly the same time frame as TSW), has crashed far more times than TSW. I only ever play TS to drive routes (mostly GEML or Manchester to Liverpool) which aren't on TSW. If the GEML got added to TSW I probably wouldn't give TS more than a cursory glance every once in a while.
     
  7. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I'm the same, it's basically the content and editor that's keeping me in TS1. I had my first TSW CTD in years last week, but for TS1, it's a question of when not if with regards to crashes.
     
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  8. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If TS implemented 24 hour timetables like TSW then it would probably be game over, getting out of the cab and walking around is great, but you can to some extent mimic that with the flying camera in TS. The fact that TS only has quick drive and scenarios is not fun though despite the wealth of content.
     
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  9. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    And you need to spend literally hundreds on content to get decent and realistic scenarios. IIRC they tried implementing a 24 hour timetable, or something like it anyway, into TS1 (Possibly RailWorks 2?) but it simply didn't work.That's why when you make a new scenaro it gives you the "timetabled" option - they removed the functionality but kept the scenario type for compatibility.

    Thankfully for TSW, messing around with the TS1 core is likely to break a lot of things (the recent 'fastload' option was in an open beta for about 6 or 7 months before it got the greenlight, and even then it just defaults to on, not off).
     
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  10. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Despite my decent sized Train Simulator collection (or perhaps, due to the size of that collection, I don't know) I'm getting very frequent lag spikes, as if it's loading data every few seconds. It's annoying the hell out of me. I suspect TS doesn't know how to fully utilize modern computers. TSW runs considerably smoother, and also features shorter loading times on my machine.

    Plus TSW does offer some features that TS doesn't have. Being able to walk around the train is one of them, but there's also in general more functionality in the trains. It looks considerably nicer and timetable mode offers things that TS doesn't do.

    Although I admit that in other aspects, TSW isn't anwhere close to what TS achieves. Be it the flexibility that Quick Drive offers, the free editing tools, the ability to share scenarios (without the need to buy a seperate DLC for that...), or simply the sheer amount of content (and more variety in its content). TSW has quite a bit of catching up to do.

    But I have my reasons to play TSW rather than TS. The fps lags are the biggest reason.
     
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  11. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Because the graphics are of the sonic era?
     
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  12. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Just to add that TS runs smoothly since I bought NVME SSD, without the smallest fps drop. At the same time TSW has fps drops no matter if on HDD or SSD.
     
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  13. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If you have the setting correct and the odd mod I think the graphical differences are actually smaller than you would expect given the base TS game is over 12 years old now.
     
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  14. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Never start a business.
    Seriously.
     
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  15. Choo choo

    Choo choo Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't get people who keep defend DTG no matter what, like the guy you replied to. By doing that, you go against your own interest as a consumer. It's like poor people advocating for tax breaks for the richer - it's not going to make your personal situation any better :)
     
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  16. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I personally would prefer that we dont start to get personal on each other.
     
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  17. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find I don't defend them no matter what, tyvm. Just look at a couple of the things I've said about the creator's club thing. I wasn't best pleased - but I'm not as vocal or negative as some others, plus I can easily manage my expectations, and I do try to be fair.
    upload_2021-12-21_15-7-41.png
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    upload_2021-12-21_15-23-54.png

    Anyway. I'm looking at it from the perspective of a business that wants money - would it really change if a few people are unhappy? Probably not unless it's a corner shop owned by an old lady or something. I've only ever seen companies change their ways when controversy gains momentum on social media, and then press pick up on it. Once the press start kicking off about it, then they change (see the GTA V mods thing a few years ago).

    A few people saying they won't buy a product and then buy it anyway isn't going to worry a games business, especially when there's companies making eye watering amounts off things like Raid Shadow Legends which is barely a game, or Atari who've released 3 or 4 RollerCoaster Tycoon games in the last few years, none of which are worth anyone's time (one of them is a Bejeweled rip-off) but have seemingly done OK.

    And in reality it's probable the person in charge of finance will just see a graph anyway and will tell the team not to make that kind of content again, not thinking about the quality of the product.
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't get people who talk in absolutes, the "DTG haven't fixed anything" or "DTG are just total rubbish and everyone else is great" type
    If you qualify what you mean then people will generally agree and a discussion can be had. Of course none of it is going to be that helpful unless DTG decide to actually release some patches and updates WITHOUT doing any changes in the meantime which will break other things...
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Disagree. TS' only advantage is the editor- and it needs one, because nothing out of the box is an interesting run.
     
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  20. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I didn't meant TS vanilla. What makes TS great and superior over TSW in my opinion of course is the amount of extra content for it. If you have additional content you can have a better looking, better sounding and better feeling in terms of physics. So that everything mixed up creates an currently the most immersive experience of the train simulation.
     
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  21. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Physics wise I would have to disagree. Based on what some 3rd party developer has said on this forum, TSW offers much more in this context.
     
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  22. Choo choo

    Choo choo Well-Known Member

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    But is that your role as a consumer to do so?

    I understand that there are different perspectives - and don't get me wrong I am also able to see things from DTG's perspective. But as a consumer you should always strive for your own interest. Just like DTG strives to maximize its interest. I am still buying some of the content that comes out on TSW. Doing so doesn't prevent me to be critical.

    A company's job is to maximise its profit. The way DTG has chosen to do this, in my opinion, has been to focus on quantity over quality - that means that the game is not in a particularly good state, see issues mentioned in the thread.

    Now when it comes to the community - that's simply wrong. Even a few voices can make a change. SEHS was delayed for a week after community backlash for improvements. Hell, even someone as insignificant as me had a look at openrailwaymaps, created a thread about the lack of LZB on Rapid Transit when said route was about to be "upgraded" by the preserved collection team. This was noticed by Adam by the preservation crew and then implemented. I will give credit to DTG for acknowledging and acting on the matter, though. But do you think that if I had created a topic saying "I have to see the perspective from DTG's side", the above thingy would have been implemented? I seriously doubt it.

    There are probably other examples of this happening. DTG do monitor the forums and are avid of constructive feedback. So here's mine - instead of releasing as many routes as possible, focus on a few and make them masterpieces - double the prices if necessary. I would not use the BR187 even if it was free but I would be willing to pay 30€ for the G6 :)

    My point is: Community voices matters. I am also sure that for their own sake DTG wants to improve and I am not sure that seeing the perspective from their side will help them solve the numerous problems this wonderful game has.
     
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  23. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not. I already feel ripped off spending £24.99, even if the DLC is good... I buy everything on sale only as well. They could make a route out of literally magic but I wouldn't even consider buying it for £50.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't see how DTG can release DLC up to the standard we reasonably expect (I'm not even talking about the standard some here unreasonably expect), without spending more time in development and production (and testing!)- stretching the current 5-6 months to more like 7-8 months- and I cannot see that happening without a price increase. This is especially the case as over time new features are added, each and every one of which takes man-hours to implement.

    The price of everything is going up- DTG can't be locked into 2017 pricing indefinitely.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
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  25. Choo choo

    Choo choo Well-Known Member

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    That's a fair point - we all value different things :)
     
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  26. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Arguably the quality of DLCs has been going downhill. Scenery, for example, has never looked as good as it did in CSX Heavy Haul. Scenario variety was at its peak in Great Western Express. Stock variety was also at its peak in GWE. The first two routes have never been matched in quality.
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Because, again, they turned out to be too expensive to develop. You aren't going to see three bespoke locos with a plethora of new rolling stock again.

    (Also, I would disagree with your assessments. Both routes are straight A-B routes with no variety. I hardly run GWE any more, because every run is the same (varied only by how often you stop). GWE ends unsatisfyingly at Reading, with even freights terminating at the passenger platforms. SPG ends in the middle of nowhere. And SPG's scenery is beaten by Clinchfield's. Also, what "variety of stock" in GWE? We got the DMU, the 43 consist with its Mk IIIs, and one hopper and one intermodal for freight)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
  28. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    It came with three drivable trains which were all brand new, with two types of freight wagon which allowed for two different types of services. The only route to come with as much new stock as GWE was... CSX Heavy Haul! And the only other route to have as much variety of services is Riesa-Dresden, which has no new stock at all.
    Not really. Jarring repeating patterns bring Clinchfield down significantly. No route has come close to CSX Heavy Haul on close scenery ever.
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Not. Fiscally. Viable. (And, again, I would dispute "variety of services." It's all the same service, over and over again. Driving an SD40 ain't all that different at all from driving a GP38, and a 166 just differs from a 43 in that it goes slower and stops more).

    While I have repeated the mantra that "Rolling Stock Sells Routes," and I agree that it was a mistake for DRA to include nothing new at all (although, to be fair, most of it would be new for people who don't have comprehensive German route collections); and I think that ever-repeated Electrostars aren't very exciting UK offerings-- nonetheless, three new locos in a route simply can't happen. Clinchfield gave us one-and-a-half, which is about as much development time as can be assigned to a thirty-quid route.

    In any event, I would gladly take Clinchfield's multiple branches and multiplicity of services over SPG's 3 locos doing the exact same A to B. In terms of gameplay variety, SPG, GWE and some later routes like LGV and SKA are about as exciting as porridge.
     
  30. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    That's not a variety? Also you're missing the Class 66 from that list

    I think you're missing my point. You made a suggestion and it was implemented because they were able to. Great. I'm talking specifically about complaining or criticising, not suggesting.

    I agree with Doomotron - no way am I paying £50 for a route; I'd struggle at much more than £30. I don't understand people who cream over AP loco packs that cost £30 (in all honesty I can see them going up to £35 in the near future) and buy them the second they release.

    I don't know, but I've always been told not to make sharp and quick criticisms and jump to conclusions. Doing so leads to unreasonable demands.

    EDIT: been thinking of the above statement, should read "..told not to be quick to judge and jump to comclusions".
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
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  31. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    And has an entirely different cab and physics and sound. Suppose you could make the same comparison between the ICE and the BR423, or the T2, or any German loco because you've basically just said "all trains are the same apart from speed".
     
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Two types of goods wagons isn't variety, no. Contrast Sand Patch, or the number of German freight wagons: enough to make up truly varied manifest trains and multiple types of unit trains. Heck, even Clinchfield provided four wagons and a caboose.
     
  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Let's put it slightly differently: the experience of driving them along a single path from Paddington to Reading and back is pretty much the same, aside from speed and stops.
     
  34. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately for you we generally don't have mixed goods trains in the UK any more (I've certainly never seen or heard of one). Think the last truely mixed goods ("Manifest") trains ran in the mid-1990s, as part of the unsuccessful Speedlink programme.
     
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  35. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Well-Known Member

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    Given the number of British releases in 2021, this comes over as rather whiny.
     
  36. Choo choo

    Choo choo Well-Known Member

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    Where are unreasonable demands here?

    You did benefit from people complaining/suggesting/criticizing, as DTG call it whatever you want, at the end of the day for you and me it is the same thing - namely, that we strive to obtain improvements. A consumer that downplays these criticisms, suggestion etc. it is a free rider in economics terms, to not say hypocrite (nothing personal here, just talking in general :) )

    Remember your idea about not make sharp and quick criticisms and jumping to conclusions? Apply your own principle and see the situation from DTG's side - as Solicitr said, development is lengthy/expensive, therefore DTG decides to cut development, therefore the quality goes noticeably down for us. What some of us do want is not a game riddled with bugs, that is absolutely unplayable at times, and we have to acknowledge that if it means that the development time needs to go up and therefore pricing needs to be revisited, this shouldn't be a taboo. No one is talking about AP loco packs here, it is question of a more holistic vision around the game.
     
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  37. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean in this thread, but in general. There's plenty of people who've called for then to all down tools and focus on bugfixing. That's fairly unreasonable I think

    I must be missing something here, why do I need to apply my principle of not making sharp and quick criticisms to AP products? I'm aware of inflation and the quality of the product is good, but I haven't seen much more "upping" in it with their stock over recent times - if you're going to increase the new base price of loco packs, why not do it retroactively (as they have done in the past)? Maybe I'm just more simple in my simming needs.
     
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  38. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Would be nice to have a little extra variety nonetheless, it's a rare thing to see a freight train with a uniform consist of container flats. Even within one type of wagon, such as the JNA you'll be very hard pressed to find a consist all in one livery or resembling anything close to clean. Hopefully this is something on the list for DTG in the future to get in touch with companies like VTG or Touax to give us a more authentic range of wagons. It's obvious not a priority but I think it would make a real difference to make the game look just a little bit closer to the real world.
     
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  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone bought a car from BMW, bought an engine separately from ford, then chose some wing mirrors from Lamborghini and added a seat from a Scania?

    This is what we’re talking about to reach the TS that proclaims to be close to TSW.

    Frankly I can’t be bothered setting up 4 different store accounts to achieve something not quite on par (my humble opinion only) to TSW.

    Yes I know TSW has mods but I liken them to adding a usb device or air freshener to car, much easier to manage
     
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  40. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree there, it'd certainly be nice if they could add varying degrees of weathering for wagons and it randomise. Hopefully they can get more container companies on board.
     
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  41. Thunderer

    Thunderer Well-Known Member

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    It could be worse, spare a thought for the poor suckers playing on PS5 - as well as all the bugs, crashes and performance issues, we can't even have all our DLCs installed at the same time, and have to uninstall and install routes when we feel like playing them due to some limit that DTG didn't bother to read about in the SDK. And we are also told we won't be getting trophies for new DLCs for the forseeable.

    I'd bought all dlc's up until recently, but now they're not getting another penny off me until these issues are fixed, and my patience is wearing very thin.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Should be very easy- if nothing else, what by the book is the "same colour" in practice varies all over the place with fading, dirt and often variation between lots, so that even a train made up of "matching" wagons is actually rather piebald. And it can't be all that hard even for DTG's newest artist hire to take a wagon skin sheet and lighten or darken the principal hue a bit.
     
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  43. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Entertainment generally doesn't tend to rise in price along with inflation, which is still negligible anyway. I probably pay less for a movie or TV series on DVD or Blu-ray than when the formats released in 1998 and 2006 respectively. 4K has been around a few years now and has stayed at £24.99 for most titles, maybe slightly cheaper for lesser stuff. So there would be little justification for DTG to raise their prices, personally I think a revision downward to £20, given the lack of QA and polish, would be more appropriate, sell more copies and lead to fewer refunds. In fact £25 is probably the top price I would pay for a route unless it was something outstanding and exceptional, for example much longer than the current paradigm and with an extensive collection of new traction and rolling stock assets. I'm not even sure I will buy the forthcoming new German route at full price, more likely wait for the Easter 2022 or summer sale. I bought the G6 diesel for full price but to be brutally honest after running a few scenarios I got bored of slow speed shunting and it's been put to one side. With hindsight I should have waited (maybe I'd have been more enthusiastic if it was a 212 or had come with a small route).
     
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  44. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    I used to go to reading quite often and would always see freight trains stopping in the passenger platforms either at a red light or driver changes, it was very common.
     
  45. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    How will DTG fund better content if we pay less?
     
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  46. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    While talking about the state of the game, it might be worth using today's 4UP Challenge stream as a bit of an example considering only two people managed to finish, although no one SPADed. A fairly ironic "See you in 2022" stream...
     
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  47. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    I called it the Millennium Business Model about 20 years ago. Somewhere along the line, it became more acceptable to prefer the short dollar over the long dollar and a lasting reputation (think Toyota), and to switch the roles of the consumer and the business (the customer is always right) to something more like "You should be grateful that we are selling you our product". I think that's what we are seeing here. People are afraid DTG are going to take their ball and go home. Like I said before, there's no such thing as a vacuum in business. Someone will fill the void eventually. I mean, take a look at the G6 thread. Two devs in there actually got mad because someone wanted a user manual for the loco. Let's us know how they see us.
     
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  48. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    LMAO! :D:D:D:D:D
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It was very poetic. A good indication that something is going badly wrong somewhere. The community team can get all worked up on our behalf in a team meeting in the new year and make the point that a good number of us have quite simply had enough game breaking issues happen. That’s given me an idea for a question for the end of year review…
     
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  50. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Ditto.
     
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