Guide Riesa-dresden: Tips On Driving Freight Trains Realistically.

Just to start with, there is a litany of technical terms in German with no translations given. I think the exposition would be less bewildering if one understood what arbeitende Triebfahrzeuge or Maßgebendes Gefälle mean. I know a little basic German, but it doesn't extend to railway engineers' professional vocabulary!

There are also lots of references to figures or statistics, even in English, without any indication what they're derived from or how to find them, such as "Summed brake weight." And, finally, for those not initiated into the Inner Circle, what are terms like P. G, BrH (defined by an equation, but never explained) etc supposed to mean? This appears to be an excellent post, but only for those who already are conversant with the topic.

Could you write a guide (or translate this one) for the casual TSW player on the assumption that he knows absolutely nothing, explaining how to set up a German freight train? (Believe it or not, my primary interest here is artistic: trying to get technical markings on German wagons right)

 

I‘m certain OpenMinded will be able to help you out a lot more than me, but I‘ll add my 2 cents.

Essentially, all you need to do is this:
Check the length and weight of your train and get the brake settings from this spreadsheet.

the column arbeitende Triebfahrzeuge refers to the loco(s) at the front of the train (only those which provide traction)
the column Wagenzug: Fahrzeug 1-5 refers to the first five cars after the loco(s)
the column Wagenzug: Fahrzeug 6-x refers to all the cars after the first five cars

Using the weight of your train (in tonnes), this table tells you what brake mode to set the loco(s), the first five cars, and all the cars after that in - either brake mode P (fast applying air brakes) or brake mode G (slow applying air brakes). The lenght of your train factors into the calculation I‘ll explain next.

Knowing the brake modes for your train, you need to calculate its BrH - Bremshundertstel. The exact translation is not important, it‘s in essence an indicator for how strong the brakes of the train are compared to its weight. The higher your BrH, the easier it is to stop the train. To get it, we need to divide the brake weight of the train by it‘s total weight. The total weight is easy since TSW gives it to you in the pause screen. The difficult bit is the brake weight.

For the individual freight cars, some relevant figures have been posted in this thread:

As you can see, it‘s important to know whether a car is loaded or not. This is something you have to figure out in-game (for example by uncoupling all but one car and checking your total weight).

The brake weight of the cars is the sum of the car‘s individual brake weights. For the loco(s), check the side frame for markings. You‘ll find a cluster of numbers (giving weight in tonnes) and letters (R+E, P+E, R, P, G). These give you the loco‘s brake weight in the corresponding brake modes - the +E denotes the inclusion of the electric brake in the calculations. If you‘re running a complete train, you can use the +E values (P+E instead of P for example). For a light loco, you‘d use the regular values, not the +E ones.

After all this, the complete brake weight of the train is the sum of the car‘s individual brake weights and the loco‘s brake weight. This is where the table comes into play again. In the row corresponding to your brake setup (for example the row depicting G/P/P - loco in brake mode G, first five cars and the rest of the cars in brake mode P), you can see percentage reductions based on the train length. These reductions apply to the brake weight of the individual units.
Let‘s stick with the example of G/P/P and assume our train is 450m long. As you can read, the first five cars and the rest of the cars suffer no reduction. Their brake weight remains unchanged. For the loco, the table dictates a reduction of 25% for trains under 700m lenght. Thus, the loco brake weight has to be reduced by 25% in our calculation of the trains total brake weight.

After taking the length into account based on the table, we finally have the correct brake weight for the train. Now, all we need to do is divide this total brake weight by the total weight of the train and we get the BrH of the train. The BrH dictates the PZB mode: 0-0.66 - Mode U, 0.66-1.1 - Mode M, anything over 1.1 - Mode O

This covers brake mode and PZB mode for the train. This leaves the matter of the trains maximum permitted velocity.

The real procedure is a little more complicated than what I‘ll describe. You need to know the ruling gradient of the route (e. g. 1.1% for Riesa-Dresden on the avoiding line). Then, all you need to do is find this ruling gradient and your train‘s BrH in this table:

The ruling gradient is on the left (in permille), the BrH in the table are multiplied by 100 (if the calculation for BrH gives you 0.78, then you need to look for 78 in the table). Round down to the closest figure if the exact figure is not included. Use the R/P rows if any vehicle in your consist is using a different brake mode than G (So anything except G/G/G in the very first table). Having found your BrH in the right ruling gradient row, trace upwards all the way of the top of the table to get your maximum permitted velocity in km/h.

That about covers all. Could you let me know, if this made things clearer or just more confusing, solicitr?

Some common abbreviations to make communication easier:
P/P (loco in brake mode P, all cars in brake mode P)
G/P (loco in brake mode G, all cars in brake mode P)
LL (loco and first five cars in brake mode G, the rest of the cars in brake mode P)
G/G (loco in brake mode G, all cars in brake mode G)

 

Yes, that helps a LOT!!!!!

 

I take it that R refers to passenger brakes? I note that among German locos in the game, only the 101 and the EMUs have an R-brake figure marked (the 146 should, real ones do, but the one in-game lazily copied its frame markings from the 185.2. I learned this doing a 146 livery).

Now, what about "e/p" and its attendant switches? I guess that refers to electronically-actuated as opposed to pneumatically (brake pipe) actuated brakes?

_________________________
One more question: what would "LL" be used for? It strikes me as courting disaster to have the rear wagons' brakes applied before the front of the train does: coupler failure and separation! Or am I thinking too much in terms of long, heavy US freights?.

 

All right, let's see if I have this right: BR 155, 30 loaded autoracks. 410 meters, 930 t. Now, the numbers above give me a brake weight for each autorack of 49.3 (same as empty- is that right?) or a total of 1479, with everything in mode P. The engine has a BWt of 124 in P, and the 'discount' is 25% for 93: the wagons are at par, so the whole-train brake weight comes to 1572. 1572/930 = 1.68, well over the Mode O threshhold. And even on the Spessart-Rampe (a 2% grade), that means I could run at 130 if the cars allowed it. Can that be right? Or have I used the numbers for empty cars?

 

I am away from home and can’t check the details, however, the general approach is correct. The error here was that you take the braked weight for each part of the whole unit waggon. As the Laaers560 is permanently coupled, the braked weight is for a whole unit. Therefore you would only take the 49.3 times 15.

BTW, there was an updated PDF table posted by me one page before this one. This was also translated into English.

 

OK- with just 15 autoracks, that gives me a BrH of 89.5, solidly in Mode M, and at that grade I can just do the 100 Vmax. So I guess autos make for a pretty easily managed train.

Loaded Uacns may be a different story....

 

(I have another question: where, on the 155, is the P/G selector?)

 

As this feature was only introduced with DRA, not many locos have it yet implemented. I don’t think the 155 has it yet.

 

I'll just pick up what OpenMinded left for me

Indeed. The R stands for Rapid-Bremse (literally rapid brake) and does some shenanigans to safely and quickly brake from 160 km/h (for which P and G brakes were never designed).

As far as I know, you're correct. I don't think you need to mess with it in TSW, but it should probably be in el for passenger trains and in pn otherwise.

You're overthinking it a bit. As you can see in the table, with increasing weight the progression through the brake modes is P/P, G/P, LL, G/G. Apart from P/P and G/G, the front of the train always applies its brakes slower than the back of it. This is so that the rear cars don't slam into the front when you initiate a braking procedure - sort of similar to the reason you'd also initiate an emergency brake application in the US via the EoTD alone or in conjunction with the front of the train via the auto brake. In case you're curious (since I didn't translate this bit) - LL stands for lange Lok - long loco, the first five cars are seen sort of as an extension of the loco in this specific brake configuration.

For your convenience, I've also attached the revised table by OpenMinded to this message again. OpenMinded, please let me know if you object to me reposting your table here and I'll remove it

Edit: deleted some wrong bits

 

Absolutely not! It’s here to be used and I am happy if it is used and shared!

 

Correct me if I am wrong guys, but I understood that R doesn't apply brakes faster (actually as fast as P, as much as brake cylinder filling speed is concerned), but gets the brake cylinders to a higher pressure (when applying the brakes at higher travelling speeds).

 

Possibly. I admit I didn't check when I wrote this. Point is, R brakes are for running passenger trains at 160 km/h.

 

That is correct. The R brake only increases the pressure on the brake cylinders. For certain brake types this is only done above a certain speed.

 

Yep. The application and release timing ranges are the same for R and P: 3-5 seconds and 15-20 seconds respectively.

Like you mentioned the R-brake would have a high pressure mode (Hohe Abbremsung) that is usually enabled above ~ 60-80 km/h depending on locomotive, when it uses cast iron brakes since these fade in brake force at high speeds. Examples are the BR143 and BR155.

Newer locomotives might skip the speed dependence entirely and just have a higher brake cylinder pressure in R-brake, for all speeds. Examples are: BR146 and BR185.

Lastly some locomotives/trains invert the relationship and have high pressure at low speeds. My guess for why they do this is because disc brakes have almost constant friction w.r.t speed so the generated heat grows with the square (huge heat generation at 200 km/h or 250 km/h), this combined with the fact that stopping distances are allowed to be much longer above 160 km/h (where LZB is required) makes high pressure at high speeds unnecessary/undesirable.

Example: BR101

 

Very true and you will find this phenomena on cargo trains with modern composite brakes as well. They do brake quite different…

Next idea for DTG to implement, simulate different brake types

 

Great idea, but as for "next"- I would rather see (a) coupler failure and train separation modeled (the real Bad Thing you are fighting to avoid with heavy freight), and (b) "Fencing" and independent DPU operation.

 

Wasn’t meant that seriously but, of course, would be happy to see any of these implemented over time.

 

Maybe I misinterpret what you mean by different brake types but on DRA we already have vehicles with K-block composite tread brakes (most wagons) and cast iron treas brakes (e.g. BR143) and of course disc brakes (TRAXX, BR101 etc). The DRA BR143 also simulated R-brakes accurately for the first time (although maybe there is no visual indication, but you can see it on the BCP gauge) and Maik also implemented the inverted style R-brake with the BR101.

Currently TSW2 lacks magnetic track brakes and eddy current brakes.

 

Hear hear! Those features are quite “costly” though. Afaik the former requires a core update and the latter requires a lot of graphical features for the LCD screens.

 

No, you understood correctly. I simply wasn’t aware that k-brakes were modelled, never checked for that and never realised. Will check the markings again tomorrow. But, are you sure that the very specific thermal distribution is modelled?! I would not think so. Also, K-brakes have a very specific braking characteristics when wet. I would imagine that this would be very complex to simulate…

 

It's in game for Hauptstrecke München-Augsburg DB BR403 ICE3 and base game route Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Aachen DB BR406 ICE3M which does the Riesa-Dresden ICE line 50 to Flughafen Frankfurt Am Main via Erfurt Bebra & Gerstungen.

 

No it’s not.

EDIT: What I mean is that the BR403/BR406 does not have simulated eddy current brakes in TSW2.
You can try it yourself, measure acceleration when in full service vs emergency, there is no difference.

Simulating eddy current brakes or magnetic track brakes is not as simple as just increasing the brake force in emergency vs full service because you have to take into account that friction brakes need adhesion which eddy current brakes don't, and the magnetic track brakes get their adhesion from a magnetic force rather than the axle load.

 

Only the difference in friction - speed curves is modelled. Heat isn’t really simulated in the game (afaik), at least not w.r.t. brakes.

Having different friction curves for wet and dry brakes should work but I don’t think it is modelled.

 

Like the others mention, it just increase the brake pressure but in some cases by some coaches. It also enables a so called Schnellbremsbeschleuniger, which increase in case of an E-Brake the speed of air release. Also, if its there.. you can enable the Magentic Brakes with the Brake Mode, R+Mg which further increase the brake performance above 50 km/h. If you want to decrease the application time for brakes, you would need the so called EP-Brake. Which gives an electric signal instead of the mechanical one to the brakes in your train. Makes it possible to give all the brakes in your train the order to apply or release at the same time which decrease the waiting time for releasing or applying. Ep-brakes and Magnetic brakes are mostly used in Regional or IC-Coaches which drive 160 km/h and more. Some older coaches with lower max speed, have Ep-brakes as well but only for the reason of the Emergency Brake Override System (NBÜ).

A little side note: With the EP-Brakes, locomotive hauled passenger trains.. feel like trams suddenly.

 

How about a freight train that has a DB BR143 as the engine when you spawn in it's always set to R brakes. What will happen if you tried running 09:23 freight Dresden Hbf to Riesa Gbf which is an empty container train since it has 775 metric tons (852.5 US Tons Sherman Hill and Sand Patch Grade weights) on R brake DB BR143 Sggmrss Container Wagons P brakes. This list is very helpful since I actually have Riesa-Dresden on Xbox Series X

 

IRL you would never use R brakes on cargo trains. Obviously in the simulation it does not really matter, as you will never be able to break the couplings or feel the force on them. The reason why you use the brake settings as specified is simply to reduce the wear and tear on the couplings…

 

Just from the perspective of US heavy freight, I really want a future iteration of TSW to model coupler strain and failure (and brake fade)

 

Overload the couplers there can be a message for that service failure coupler has snapped for Riesa-Dresden it's your mixed Manifest Trains and the 2.7k metric ton Monster train 2.9k US tons train

 

Some of the Freight Trains are the DB BR143 locomotive like the 07:06 Roderau Dresden freight Mixed manifest. To Change Brakes go to the Engine Room where Sifa PZB Battery Start Pantograph is located

 

For everyone, who is still interested, however, does not have the time, or does not want to read through all these pages on this thread, tygerways#2596 has released a nice video on YT, going through every step in setting up a freight train. He does it along a cargo train service on DRA. Lots of theory put into action in the simulator (or should I call it game…).

Have fun watching…

 

Update: Some of the information in the original post, like the calculated Vmax or the brake setting recommendations is incorrect. None of the trains on DRA require all wagons to be set to "G", as long as you run according to timetable R/P (which means that you need to determine your Vmax based on the Mbr for R/P). This is because all the trains on the route that exceed 1600t have all their wagons weighing more than 32t (see below).

How to determine brake setting of your train:
If your train exceeds 800t but not 1200t then the locomotive has to be in brake setting "G".
If you train exceeds 1200t but not 1600t then the first 5 wagons (3 if they are twin units) has to be in brake setting "G".
If your train exceeds 1600t and any of the wagons weigh below 32t then all wagons have to be in brake setting "G".
If you run according to timetable "G", then all wagons and the locomotive has to be in brake setting "G", no matter the train weight. PZB also has to be set to "U", no matter the BrH.


Minimum BrH for given Vmax
I have been able to get a hold of the Mbr (mindeste bremshundertstel or minimum BrH) for different maximum formation speeds in either direction (Riesa to Dresden or Dresden to Riesa). To determine your Vmax you start at the speed limit all of the vehicles in your consist can travel at (usually 100 km/h or 120 km/h depending on if the train is loaded or empty, but this can vary) and then find the Vmax that has a corresponding Mbr that is lower than your trains BrH.

NOTE: The method to determine the BrH above is for a train running according to a R/P timetable, thus you should use the R/P Mbr if using such a BrH. If you want to use the "G" timetable Mbr then you have to calculate the BrH of your train yourself (which will basically just be the straight BrH without any deductions since no train on the route exceeds 700m).

Leipzig - Riesa - Dresden
Mbr for 70 km/h = 33 R/P / 46 G
-//- for 80 km/h = 39 R/P / 49 G
-//- for 90 km/h = 52 R/P / 64 G
-//- for 100 km/h = 66 R/P / 83 G
-//- for 110 km/h = 86 R/P
-//- for 120 km/h = 105 R/P

Dresden - Riesa - Leipzig
Mbr for 70 km/h = 35 R/P / 46 G
-//- for 80 km/h = 39 R/P / 49 G
-//- for 90 km/h = 52 R/P / 64 G
-//- for 100 km/h = 66 R/P / 83 G
-//- for 110 km/h = 96 R/P
-//- for 120 km/h = 110 R/P

For example, if your train has a "formation Vmax" of 100 km/h and a BrH in R/P of 65 then the Vmax would be 90 km/h in both directions.

 

That's great!
It would be helpful, though, to have a table of brake weights for the possible wagons in use on the route, because it's a pain to crawl along the train with a flashlight looking for them.....

 

Sure. I'll update the OP but in the meantime:

Wagon-------------Brake Equipment--Tare Weight------Max Gross Weight-----Empty Braked Weight-----Loaded/Max Braked Weight-------
Falns 183---------KE-GP(48t)------------24.1t----------------89.6t-------------------------29t-------------------------------59t------------------------------------------
Habbiins-----------KE-GP-A---------------27t------------------90t---------------------------27t--------------------------------58t------------------------------------------
Laaers--------------KE-GP-A---------------30.1t---------------64.1t------------------------30.1t------------------------------56t-----------------------------------------
Kijls-----------------KE-GP-A---------------17.2t----------------44.7t------------------------17.2t------------------------------29t------------------------------------------
Sggmrss-----------KE-GP-A---------------29.5t---------------134.5t-----------------------29.5t------------------------------108t----------------------------------------
Tadgs 959---------KE-GP(44t)------------24.2t---------------80t---------------------------28t---------------------------------53t-----------------------------------------
Zacns---------------KE-GP(48t)-----------22.6t---------------90t---------------------------26t---------------------------------58t-----------------------------------------
Shimmns 708-----KE-GP(48t)-----------22.4t---------------89.4t------------------------29t---------------------------------59t-----------------------------------------
Shimmns 722-----KE-GP(48t)-----------23.7t---------------89.7t------------------------27t---------------------------------51t-----------------------------------------

 

"Necropost": I don't remember if this is correct (no true "G" trains in DRA timetable) but I suggested some formations to Joe that would force you to use "all G" in Bremen Oldenburg. In TSW4 these should automatically be set to "G" when you start

 

I appreciate this (just as the rest of the work you are doing for the game) very much and will have a close look on all the formations on the new Dresden-Riesa!

 

Thank you, this is great to hear. I'm all for realism but couldn't quite wrap my head around the numbers in the short time I'm able to play TSW, so would just leave things how they were though it would bug me knowing, in the back of my head, that things weren't "perfect".

 

Do you get 1000 metre and longer freight trains there? In Germany?

 

No, we're limited to either 740 Meters or 250 axles. 252 in exceptions

 

cwf.green Thanks for your work! Your work makes the DRA TImetable my go-to for freight. Since it came out and still today, because I know what to set the train to, how much is allowed and so on. Sometimes I jump to BRO because the mixed freight is really mixed freight, like I know it, and I hope we will have true mixed freight, as in Eanos, Roos, Zacns, Habbins, Shimmns (Steel cover and fabrix cover) and Laaers randomly combined up to 650 or 700 Meters. The only thing that we're missing is wagons for under pressure liquified gases. But that's not what this is about. Just wanted to say a f*cking huge thanks for your work. And please keep us updated, when you've updated the OP

 

I started working on a universal calculator recently (I found that writing all the formulas by myself works best for learning how it works), that should make it much easier to calculate all necessary things even for mixed trains or custom-made formations. The calculation is working already, but I am waiting for full TSW4 release to collect data on rest of the locos and wagons and test everything out. Ideally I would then also collect max gradients for every direction on every route, so it can include slope-dependent speed reductions as well, as that is usually the largest factor for max permissible speed. But that will take a long time, so if any of you already have this data from official sources or captured in the game, I would love to have it!

 

Yeah, cool! So I can check my calculator against yours to see if they agree or not!

 

Are you referring to a Zags LPG tanker and the newer Zagkks LNG tankers. For DTG they can see the Zags LPG tanker inside the big yard Dresden Friedrichstadt where it's being shunted by a 204 363 365 G6 to a Vectron 193 CD 383 Austrian 1293

 

I have two questions:

Is the weight of the cargo itself the same as the braked weight? For example, the total weight of the wagon minus the wagon's tare weight.

For wagons that have load dependent brake weights, is it appropriate to always use the maximum brake weight in the calculation?

 

No, it isn’t. For manually adjusted cars, the brake weight is whatever the options on the lever are for empty/loaded. For automatically adjusted cars, it’s the total weight up to a maximum number. Some tables have been posted in this thread if there are specific numbers you need.

No, definitely not. You need to use the actual value. If you always use the maximum value, you will overestimate your brake performance with an empty train. Since TSW seems to use a binary loaded/unloaded system in timetable mode, a loaded train will probably always use the max value though.

 

Lamplight I should've asked a third question for an even three strikes

Thanks for the reply though.

I guess the thing that's really stumping me is what value to use for a wagon with variable braked weight.
Does the actual weight of the cargo get factored in (total weight of the wagon minus the tare weight)?

I'm asking in the context of TSW. I'm sure they use a single weight for both loaded and empty, which is acceptable.

 

I’m not sure where you got the idea from to subtract anything. It’s just the total weight up to max. If a car has automatic adjustment with 58t max, then a car with a total weight of 80t will have 58t brake weight, no matter whether that’s 40t car + 40t cargo or 20t car + 60t cargo.

If it’s just TSW you’re interested in, I’ve attached the table I use in my notebook.

I think I’ve got the numbers from cwf.green. The columns are car, brake type, weight empty, weight loaded, brake weight empty, brake weight loaded/max. I did find some differences to this table in testing in TSW though, so check again if you need a number to be 100%.

Hope that helps

 

This should be the current state of TSW4 according to my testing:



I am currently investigating how it is really with the binarity of empty/loaded wagons though. If I measure values for individual Shimmns wagon on RSN, they are not correct for steel trains on LFR (not even for any combination of loaded/empty wagons in the consist), for example.

 

It does help. I'm definitely overthinking this as I try to understand it.
So for a BrH calculation, if the wagon is empty, use the empty braked weight. If it's loaded, depending on the wagon, use either the loaded braked weight or the max variable braked weight. Is that correct?

 

noir I was actually thinking of making a chart like that today. I'll use yours instead. Thanks for sharing, your efforts are appreciated