Why I Don't Care For Lirr (as It Presently Stands)

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by solicitr, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,940
    Now, to start off I'll lay my cards on the table; I have some personal quirks which mean that, even if overhauled to Clinchfield or Brighton standard, LIRR would likely not be among my most-played routes
    • I'm not keen at all on stop-and-start commuter rail
    • I dislike New York
    • I think the Budd EMUs are ugly, personality-less and rather grubby refrigerators on rails. YMMV.

    However, LIRR could still be improved enough to make it into the rotation. And my complaint is NOT actually with the usual beefs:
    • I don't much care about the sound complaints, since I stay in the cab
    • While the ATC is imperfect, since the overhaul last year it is workable, not a disastrous hash like NEC Boston's (or NEC NY's)
    It is true that the existing underwhelming timetable can make the "busiest railroad in North America" seem about as bustling as West Somerset, and it's my understandin g that whnver Adam takes another crack at it, a new timetable taking advantage of a new dispatcher and fixed ATC will bring it up to something like RL. But there is another, deeper problem with the existing timetable: it's impossible. Like so many older TSW routes, the timetable was not based on the real one, but rather based on auto-running AI trains, setting up breakneck acceleration and deceleration (and often speed limiut violattions) that no human can match. And for me at least its is maddenly frustrating always to be late without a prayer of catching up! (Compare Brighton- one benefit of Joe's meticulous recreation of the RL timetable is that the RL timetable has slack built in.) I could make the same complaint about, say, Northern Trans-pennine, but that one I find a) aesthetically pleasant and b) not unrealistic for BR to be running late.

    So, PLEASE whenever the new timetable is created- use the RL times, not just the RL services.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    • Like Like x 4
  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,176
    Likes Received:
    9,157
    Personally I don’t think routes such as LIRR will ever be truly great in TSW as it is now, at least in my opinion.

    There are many issues with LIRR, and I haven’t touched it in a long time (since the pres crew update), my biggest gripe with it is that I’m supposed to believe I’m travelling through NYC, however it feels like I’m travelling through a big suburb that is subject to martial law, there’s absolutely no life or atmosphere to the route.

    I am however in the same position as you, I don’t particularly like the EMU’s that serve the line, and I’m not a huge fan of the stop start commuter services, so I don’t think I’d ever really enjoy what this route offers.

    Again though, I may be more interested if it felt like the experience it was supposed to deliver, but I suspect that the upcoming Harlem line may be the closest we get to that, I am interested to see what the NYC backdrop looks like now, given the time that’s passed since DTG’s last attempt.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    6,475
    Likes Received:
    17,338
    Even the way it was, I got lots of use out of LIRR in TSW2020. It didn’t port over to TSW2 very well but by then I’d got a bit bored of it anyway. For a short while earlier though I did enjoy driving it more than any other route bar NTP. That was mainly down to the variety of different services there were with the branches but then one day I sort of stopped and rarely went back. It was around the time I started buying a lot more DLC and other routes got my attention. Despite all the talk on the forum about extending the route to Rrrr…you know where, I actually always got a bit bored on the straight bit before Hicksville and made jokes on many extension threads about how I wanted it shortening if anything. It’s the lack of traffic rather than the length of the route that lets it down the most. There should be plenty of opportunity for parallel running with the track layout but the services just aren’t there.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  4. Louis-MTA NYCTA

    Louis-MTA NYCTA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    544
    I do agree, however, currently there is a project underway that makes this segment of track 3 tracks instead of 2 tracks sas it is here.

    Obviously LIRR in TSW2 is outdated and the route was built/made in 2018 along with some parts that were used from the original NEC on TSW2020. Many changes have occured since in real life like the 3rd track between Hicksville and Floral Park, The recently opened Elmont station outside of Belmont Park station and the future East Side Access Expansion project that is 75% complete.

    I personally love the LIRR, not only have I worked on it before, but I love start/stop commuter services. Although I think the route needs a serious upgrade if it were to ever compete with any of the modern routes made today. It would need various map updates including the new 3rd track between Hicksville and Floral Park which could expand the services on the entire route.

    In TSW2 you can actually notice parts of the 3rd track in the game, near Mineola station you can see a section that has a small bridge and "abandoned" tracks on it. This was part of the unfinished 3rd track back in 2018 and today this section is part of it. You will also notice other short sections of tracks adjacent to the 2 track stretch to Hicksville, these were all incorporated in the 3rd track.

    Metro North however has mostly 4 tracks along the section of the route expected to come to TSW 2. There are parts with 3 tracks and some with 2 tracks. But mostly it's 4 tracks throughout the route. I hope the Harlem Line delivers the success the LIRR was supposed to have and the hustle and bustle that literally is in the description and yet, is absent in the route. Then again, not really getting my hopes up until I see it.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2019
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    283
    He started a whole thread against a route he admittedly will not play.
    This forum is my favourite slapstick comedy.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,940
    Some commenters on this forum are indeed comical in their lack of reading comprehension. (Also in misapprehension of basic words like "slapstick")
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    • Like Like x 3
  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,940
    Each TSW route is, necessarily, a time capsule of the time when it was developed (or an earlier time). Trying to update routes to keep up with real world changes? That way madness lies. LIRR, like GWE, will remain forever in 2016-17.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    1,702
    Although I'm not sure if I could agree with everything in the OP's post, it is true that the current state of the LIRR route in TSW falls short from its potential. Possibly not even halfway.

    Of course there are still several bugs that persist in its current version, but more importantly, there's many things that are just straight up missing in this route. There are no AI trains that travel off to one of the many LIRR branches. Rolling stock is limited. Passenger numbers are few. Penn Station doesn't even have that same murky feeling as it does with its real world counterpart. It's hardly a faithful representation of the experience in real life.

    It's at the point where I'd feel as though it's better to have another go at it and start another LIRR DLC from scratch, this time with all the bells and whistles that the new routes have. It could be set on a new branch line, with new rolling stock and a much improved timetable, with improved scenery that actually shows the New York City skyline as you approach Manhattan.
    And I know this all sounds ridiculous, because frankly it is. However, this approach could yield new content while at the same time bringing the route up to standards with the others.
    The current LIRR route clearly seems to have a large playerbase that owns it, so there already is an interest for this sort of stop-and-go metropolitan commuter type of route, if only that experience can be delivered well.

    That's why there's a Metro North line in production, which can hopefully improve on the LIRR's shortcomings. For now, we'll just have to wait and see.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2021
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    3,734
    Its about real worlds timetables instead of creating fantasy tables, like they did in earlier routes. Its more effort yes, but a big step forward for route development and enjoying a route for customers.

    This is probably the only way they can make routes like l2b working, And its major benefit, there is no need to make the entire thing from scratch when adding the cl.700 services for example. The gap is already existing in the current one.

    Relates also to the topic of route merging. Merging 2 routes with its own fantasy timetables is impossible without a giant extra effort. At least when both routes would use the real world times, things make it a lot easier from the service side.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2021
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    3,734
    I missed a lot of streams, did matt of sam ever covered this topic? The Tharadndter Rampe uses real timetables from 2012, so would actually be very nice when dtg use Real timetables only for future routes. (Yes freight is not as easy to get on informations, but at least for passenger services)
     
  11. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    I’ve tried dipping back into this occasionally. The issue I have is the neighbours get really angry as I cheer and stamp my feet when I see another train on the route. It’s a bit like the train sim equivalent of the apocalyptic film “I am legend”
     
    • Like Like x 5
  12. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2019
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    283
    I just find it hilarious how I was accused of being negative for one comment when there are people here constantly posting whole threads (and change.org petitions :D:D:D) whining about old routes...that they already paid for! Like I said, this place is comedy.
     
  13. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    1,342
    So you'd much rather see people complain about route they haven't played? Well ok...

    I hate LIRR, it's the worst route I've never played, sure hate it for... never having a single impact on my life, grrrrrrrrrrrrr...

    In all seriousness though I avoided LIRR for the timetable being awful, with ATC being a secondary concern, many others didn't buy it either for the same reason. Sure solicitr's perhaps isn't the best person to speak on a commuter route considering he's not a huge fan of them. But he at least has first hand experience with the route, and he could certainly list issues with the route a lot better than someone like me, who's never even touched the darn thing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,528
    Likes Received:
    10,147
    Back in its first iteration ( TSW 2020 ) I played it quite a lot, but it was always lacking the important elements, AI traffic, a believable view of the approach to New York and the feel of a busy commuter line. And the timings were and are impossible ( not that I care that much about being on time).

    But it has been totally eclipsed for me by the Rush Hour routes ( despite their own shortcomings ). LIRR just can't hold a candle to BML and Boston for the " commuter feel" and the busyness. So it's very much an occasional foray for me any more and I doubt very much that it will receive the attention it needs to bring it up to speed.

    I pray that the Harlem route will match the Rush Hour standard.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    556
    I haven't used this route for ages either. When I read this thread, I immediately did a service, like "was it really that bad?".

    It's true... It doesn't feel like New York or at least a big city. It seems relatively dead (someone mentioned the "I am legend"-comparison) and what I've always wondered before: shouldn't you see some kind of "skyline" somewhere? At least in the distance?

    And hardly 10 minutes on the route I already noticed the first problems (which I had forgotten in the meantime)... Problems with the sound, sudden changes in speed... and before Hempstead I had to stop for 20 minutes(!) at a red signal (with a corresponding delay at my destination!), because the dispatcher first let 3(!) opposite trains from Hempstead pass...

    Well, maybe I'll try it again in a year or so.

    Too bad, I would be very happy about a really good route in the New York area.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2021
    Messages:
    9,084
    Likes Received:
    5,602
    If the development team wants to fix this there's the Elmont station followed by Third Track Floral Park Hicksville flyovers at Hillside Support Facility and Jamaica used by trains. Hillside Support Facility flyover Babylon branch trains Jamaica Junction Far Rockaway and Long Beach trains.
    Mistakes are 8 & 10 car trains Penn Station 6 car trains both Penn Station and Atlantic Terminal. Correction should be 6-8 car train Penn Station and Atlantic Terminal 10-12 car trains Penn Station only that should include the section to Woodside Port Washington Branch. In TSW 2020 most of my hours were spent in the route
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,940
    It came bundled with TSW2020; I didn't pay anything extra for it.
     
  18. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Even if you didn't pay for it, that would mean you are reviewing a route which you don't even own. That's much worse. Just ignore the user; clearly they are only trolling.

    As for LIRR, I am also glad I did not pay out for it specifically. It is easily my least played and least favourite route. It is terribly boring to drive, devoid of life, and what few trains pass you are all identical. Then of course there is the safety systems and sounds, all that has been complained about. Frankly it makes Rapid Transit look pristine in quality. I don't mind rapid commuter runs myself. In fact, S-Bahn runs are some of my favourite because they can be so challenging. But LIRR has no challenge, no traffic, and no diversity. I'm not sure that any amount of work done to modify it would make we want to play it more. Frankly it needs re-doing from the ground up.

    Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,940
    I'm not sure at whom that's directed. I do own it, and have played it, some. I had played it immediately before writing the OP, and that was its motivation. I played it rather more than some back in the 2020 days. But it's down at the bottom of my preference list; and I think that status could be improved were some of my suggestions taken up. That doesn't mean play it much more than I do Bakerloo,* for much the same reasons (which are personal preferences, not the quality of the route, and likewise I doubt I'll be getting Harlem unless it's released to GOAT acclaim.)

    *Weirdly, the 72 Tube Stock is my "favorite" loco by the numbers, because you rack up 1000 AP for each little station stop.
     
  20. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Sorry, I meant that the said user indirectly accused your post of being silly and pointless because you already paid for the route (in their mind, what's the point of writing complaints if you already gave up your money?). But of course, that's a silly notion because the alternative is someone reviewing a route which they do not own. That is ridiculous.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    I do think skylines are an issue, we have a shard free London too. That you can see from 20miles away in places
     
    • Like Like x 3
  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,940
    Also a Munich with none of the towering landmarks east of the Hauptbahnhof, starting with the twin cathedral towers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2020
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    556
    But strangely enough - in Dresden (Riesa) they got it right. If you drive over the bridge from Dresden main station just before Dresden Neustadt and look to the right, you can see the Bruehlsche Terrace, the Church of our Lady and the shilouettes of the other famous buildings.
    I was very surprised, I would never have expected that.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    8,665
    Honestly, just fix the ATC on LIRR and give it a good timetable (busy and please, trains on the sidings in yards), and it could be a 150% better experience and a route actually worth playing.

    Because even if the scenery is not perfect, I think it's good enough and actually a pretty goos route.

    Of course some bugs also need fixing, like the M7 audio bug, but what my point is, that with "just" a better ATC and timetable the route could be totally transformed, even without any scenery improvements.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page