I was just reading this today. Forgive me for saying but is it worth having this feature at all? We can create something which is in no way true to life and hand it over for free to which guise it could be used as a marketing tool. I'm not sold on this. It seems unless you want to create something that is fantasy then it's not worth it. -------------------------------- Intellectual Property rights When using Creator’s Club which involves the submission to us of your own designs, then: by using Creator’s Club, you grant us a perpetual, worldwide, irrevocable, royalty-free licence to use your designs for the purpose of marketing or improving our products and services, and for the purpose of administering, promoting, reporting on or otherwise operating the feature; You warrant that you have and shall maintain all permissions, consents, licences and rights required for you to grant us the above licence to your designs; You may be restricted from using Creator’s Club if, in our reasonable opinion, your designs are obscene, discriminatory, offensive, violate criminal law or are otherwise unlawful, infringe the rights of any person or promote or facilitates any of the foregoing; and you warrant that your designs are your own original work.
And? It's the exact same agreement that you enter for the competitions. https://dovetailgames.com/competiti...33.979747441.1628850608-1754472419.1608050655 Realistically, it's just a catch-all thing and the marketing's likely just going to be a screenshot of your thing to say "look you can do liveries" and that'll be about it, and they'll probably only do it for your thing once (how many times do you hear about the winners of the livery competition after the announcement?).
Essentially that means DTG might stick a picture of your livery on their social media channels. If they really want better marketing then making it a free upgrade would likely entice more people to use it.
N3V do similar with the Trainz Download Station. Anything you create, even a route that took months to craft, becomes their property so they can take, adapt, turn into DLC to sell it and you have zero recourse.
Livery is one thing, scenarios an other which are possible to share. Makes it interessting with scenario planner 2.0.
Understand the handing it over yeah. I'd be interested to see the uptake on fantasy liveries etc as it gets moving against as a percentage of the player base.
DTG should publish some official branded liveries via creators club, e.g. the First Great Western liveries for GWE. Since these would be optional extras, it might finally allow DTG to share them instead of us relying on mods.
Probably won't - they'll still be wary of licensing (remember the time Armstrong Powerhouse nearly got sued by Virgin for doing just that?). In any case, why wouldn't they just update the base route pack to add that livery? They've done it before, and are about to do so again for Boston.
If DTG can publish the FGW livery at all it could just be added to the GWR route, with no need for the creator club.
If they're extras for routes using existing licensed TOCs, but are not part of the base route package itself, it could work. For instance, if First only wanted the GWR livery to feature on GWE, but allowed the old FGW livery to be an extra (provided it wasn't advertised as part of the route), creator's club could allow a way around that. Then again licensing is an absolute minefield, and I don't think anyone really understands what's allowed and what's not, hence DTG going the safe route.
The intellectual property rights section protects DTG from your wrongdoings. If you copy someone else’s design and submit it and it is then used in marketing and the original designer sees it and complains to DTG, this makes you the person ultimately liable for the unlicensed use of the intellectual property and not DTG. By submitting a design you are telling DTG that you have the license to do so and that you are giving them license to use it in the ways they state. They are a business so they need to put this in to protect themselves. If you are submitting a design for others to use (the whole purpose of Creator’s Club) then you are already comfortable giving away your design for free, so you should also be comfortable with DTG using it in marketing etc. without paying you. You still hold all the rights to your designs though if it is entirely your own work. So if you design a nice flower logo and put it on a train you can still put that flower logo design on a mug and sell it on your Etsy page to make money!
I've no interest in fictional liveries so I really can't see how the creators club will bring any benefit for me directly. Others however love designing and running fictional liveries so for them it's going to bring added value to the sim for them. These T&Cs seem fairly bog standard and these alone aren't going to sway people away from sharing liveries.
I have some ideas for edge case scenarios for real liveries that I will try to publish, I have no idea how they are going to moderate this, either a lot of manpower or a flawed AI which I assume will be very easy to workaround. Also since it's a "submisison" service, what will stop me from publishing a completely fictional livery and then repaint it completely in real colors? I have a feeling this feature will be closed after not too long, I hope I'm wrong but I can't see how something like this will be moderated TBH, unless it's very easy to get banned, out of a system YOU PAID FOR.
By "allowed" you mean "Dovetail locked it away behind code and First weren't too bothered about it when modders hacked their way in", right?
Agreed It will suit some, I have never wanted a class 37 with an almost Spongebob design on the side called Splungedog. Equally a sprinter with similar but not quite Red Bull F1 design under the guise Bread full. It all seems a bit Roca Cola to me.
I meant if First were ok with it being shared via creators club not mods, if permission is even required in the first place (presumably so).
That's not the point, but if you get banned after the first offence it's not a good experience, maybe if it was a free feature like the livery desigener in Forza, but if you pay for the extension anc then you can't put a foot wrong it's just bad.
Tbh, as long as you don't upload something very offensive, sweary, illegal or that isn't your's, you shouldn't have a problem. Note the Ts&Cs are in pural ("your designs") - it wouldn't be unreasonable to at least expect a warning before action is taken - It's certainly what I've experienced when using similar platforms - just a polite notice if your thing doesn't meet standards/rules. It's only repeat offenders who get action taken against them.
I don't agree with, this because like you said it's a marketing tool, they should just make it available for everyone with no additional charges.
Interestingly, say someone likes driving trains that have liveries on that could be deemed offensive or inappropriate to some but not others and wanted to share this Flags Phallic shapes Portrayals of unacceptable acts Offensive logos Violence Political statements How are these moderated? Who deems it acceptable for sharing? What is the criteria? Potentially if you have an over zealous review process/moderator you’re paying for something you couldn’t use how you want?? (Extreme examples above but to illustrate this process is potentially very subjective and open for large differing sin opinion as to what’s ok)
I feel like you're taking issue with these Ts&Cs for the sake of it. Do you really think they're going to even consider allowing liveries depicting violence and phallic shapes? Also, what do you mean by "unacceptable acts"? Do you mean saying that you like Mrs Brown's Boys or trying to mug someone? Most of the things you can work out if it's going to be acceptable by engaging a little bit of common sense, some things will become much more known over time - a few people in this thread have not uploaded to a website where uploads are moderated before release and it's very obvious. When it comes, I imagien they'll post a much more comprehensive list of acceptabilities and requirements, else just default to "would this be DQ'd in a livery designer comp?" Strictly speaking, you can't use most software you pay for "how you want" - you agree to a license, EULA or similar when you buy it. Creator's Club is a private platform, with which you agree to the Ts&Cs when you sign up, if you violate those Ts&Cs DTG is entirely within its right to kick you out (remember, you'll still have the extra content that came with it), similarly they're entirely within their right to reject your upload for any reason.
Well as the game is PEGI 3 I would expect most of what you have listed wouldnt be permitted, the political statement one is the biggest grey area for me. The antifa and communist symbols for example can cause a strong reaction in some quarters whereas for others it would be deemed offensive for it to be banned, whereas the MAGA logo might draw the opposite reaction for many. (assuming that not of these symbols are licensed although I suspect the MAGA one atleast would be). Its a narrow tightrope DTG have to walk along and I wouldnt be surprised if they fell off a few times.
Not so much the terms, I’m more intrigued where the moderation will butt heads with those that feel they buy something they can’t use as they would like because it’s a bit grey
Do you really think it's all that grey? The UK rating is PEGI-3: basically a G rating. Anything you wouldn't find in a Pixar movie is out of bounds. What is so hard about avoiding politics, smut and trademark violations?
For me personally, nothing. As above I'm curious to see how it all pans out. I do not want to have a train with a big chicken on the side or a symbol which rattles cages. I am not many though, only one.
They really have to be more thorough about what they are talking about. I don't think chieflongshin means this in a very wrong way, its the way how the team word the word, making us think that this is what they mean. Really the team should say more about what they mean by this. Cameron's Gaming Please calm down and don't take this the wrong way
No doubt company lawyers have prepared and reviewee and edited this statement and it wouldn't surprise me if it hasn't gone back and forth internally within DTG prior to release. If all very common and clear. If you tried dissecting any user content terms and conditions you will find things to get worried about. Truth is very few publishers are as transparent as DTG in this respect.
Premature speculation is more exciting than the mundane reality. Small print is more about ass covering than exploitation.
Which IIRC received a wide array of responses from "Thanks for acknowledging trans folks" to "Dovetail now support terrorism". As for the 'political statements' thing, I think it'll depend on what the statement actually is, because even stripes are considered strong political statements. Moving swiftly on, judging by the roadmap, creator's club will simply be a free update to the game and not paid for.
This was where my bad example above Cameron falls apart . DTG deemed it suitable for them to include (their prerogative). If the feature was paid and I wanted to create a train with a similar thing and it was declined then that's where the whole subjectivity to what's acceptable unravels. The human element creates bias. The cost element is now negated following todays announcement on roadmap.
I think what Sam didn't say in last nights stream has improved my outlook on the usefulness of creators club.
Yeah , I’m not so fussed now it’s free to be put out of joint about it. The proof will be in the pudding I guess when it releases.
It depends. I do not want my routes completely cluttered with all kinds of fantasy liveries. I may like to drive a nice livery if you have the option just to substitute your player engine with it. Scenario planner is not very interesting at the moment for me. It dos not add anything to the timetable. I think it should have two features: 1. The ability to create a collection of preferred liveries, but not to install them in your game. 2. The ability to use a livery only for the player engine.
