PC Why Does Everything Accelerate Too Fast ?

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by ghawk2005, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    There’s definitely something messed up with this simugraph and severe lack of real life testing. Every DMU, EMU, and some locos accelerate fast compared with real life. Doesn’t anyone from developer team actually go out and test for real life comparisons before releasing ? Seems not. The 166 - a minute too fast to 60, the 150, At least 5-6 seconds too fast 0-30mph,

    Apart from the HST, which is about right, Most other DLC stock accelerates too fast. Even a brand spanking new Class 150 wouldn’t have accelerated from 0-10mph in just 4 seconds like the game does. Let alone a 30-40 year old unit. I think simugraph needs a major overhaul to chuck out ‘real life average’ unit physics rather than ‘ pushing the laws of physics / toy game ‘ versions.

    Go out there and TEST the DLC with real life timings / gps for goodness sake. Don’t just go on. Theory or taking this simugraph palava for gospel.
     
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  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think they’ve made it quite tricky to get it absolutely right due to the way Simugraph simulates all the internal systems and does it without any real world losses. That becomes even more difficult if they can’t do research trips which has been the case recently. I’d expect them to get somewhere close but getting the real world acceleration and braking curves for every train they model is a huge task and then getting it all perfect in the sim is just as hard and I expect very time consuming. There are bound to be errors if they can’t get the required data but even if they do there will still be errors and approximations.

    I think once the beta testers or members of the community with real world experience of the trains get to examine how close they have got, the route and timetable are well in development or even finished, and even a small change in an acceleration curve can have a huge impact on a timetable, so the trains stay as they are even if people point it out either pre or post release. I don’t actually see that many complaints here on the forum about the acceleration physics being so way off except with the 150 (It’s Rivet and they seem to struggle more) and the older trains from GWE so I don’t think they are so far off that many times. There seem to be more initial issues with braking strength, which I would expect, but brakes can be adjusted more after the fact as they don’t impact the timetable as much as slowing a train’s acceleration down.

    As with every aspect of TSW, DTG and third parties can always improve and they have but sometimes things do come out that are so unrealistic that it becomes an issue. It’s generally close enough most of the time.
     
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  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's generally much harder to come up with an accurate representation of real life when building from the inside out (as in TSW) than when building from the outside (as in TS). But when done right (after much tweaking), the simulation is much superior.
     
  4. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    To be honest given I'm around real trains, I find the physics is not too bad. Sure there are some quirks but nothing to get excited about.

    Is there any reason you can't drive to the acceleration profile that you want to have? It's a bit like my car, if I drive like a leadfoot the police will chase me, if I don't then I can drive as sedately as I want/need to suite the conditions?

    Paul
     
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  5. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    I would agree on the difficulty of setting Simugraph physics to high accuracy, but surely it would be possible to build in what I call 'trimming' for final adjustment - it is what would be IRL, to allow for wear and tolerances. If not, that is poor engineering design. There are ways to to modify, such as throttle 5 to 50mph on the 166, but maybe you can't do that with a 150 that leaps from the blocks.
     
  6. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    yes it can’t be that difficult to do the ‘real life research’ and trim before final release surely? I am not expecting to the 1 second margin of accuracy because in real life there is a great deal of variation. It what I do not expect, is if let’s say, 10 real life gps and data timings turn out that a 166 takes an average of 2 minutes to get to 60mph, is then to find in the game it takes 1 minute etc. a few seconds either way yes, Not ridiculous figures though. The 150 sprints off faster than an EMU currently and whoever let that go through quality checks should be ashamed of themselves.
     
  7. NQuarter

    NQuarter Member

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    It would be nice if they can start going from real Data. I'm certainly no expert so I haven't noticed the difference for acceleration on Trains, as I've never been on any of them, or do any research on them.

    The Brakes are also something they need to adjust. The slower you go, the more effective the Brakes should become as there is less forward momentum. However, it doesn't matter how much your Speed decreases, if you apply Notch 1 of Braking Force from 10Mph down to 0, the decrease will be an even amount the entire way which shouldn't be the case. So if it takes 2 seconds to go from 10Mph to 9Mph, it also takes 2 seconds to go from 1Mph to 0Mph.
     
  8. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    They may do it on purpose to make the games more playable for a broader audience. I remember watching a pilot playing Ace Combat and he kept saying that everything happened too quickly compared to real life - acceleration, turns in dogfights, etc. If you had to worry about what g-forces you were sending through your missile loadout while trying to dogfight the enemy MiGs, it would make the game far less exciting to play. The same may be true here - you'd probably lose more players if they feel like they're always going to be late to the next stop because the train takes three days to get up to speed.

    Obviously, it still needs to feel like you're moving a weighty train and not a rocket (cough Rivet 150 cough), but having a little more perkiness than real life might not be such a bad thing.
     
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Some of the physics oddities are, well odd. For example some of the German locos you cannot go to full throttle without inducing massive wheelslip. For example the much regarded DB BR101, running one of the Journey Mode scenarios as soon as I exceeded Notch 6 (60%) even at 80 km/h. This seems totally unrealistic, even in wet conditions. Applying sand made no difference. Trying out the AFB, I input a speed reduction from 160 km/h to 110 km/h and the whole thing went into meltdown with a massive Kn readout on the electric brake and wheelslip (or I presume wheel slide) again. Needless to say I haven't bothered with AFB since, but the problem remains if you can't get the throttle fully open at 80 km/h you can't keep time. Not to mention I'm sure most modern locomotives even some of the older BR locos will regulate the power applied even if you open the throttle wide, with built in wheel slip protection.
     
  10. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    It's called "Superslip" and it is absolutely prototypical to a BR101. Read the other threads about it on this forum.
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Okay Maik, understood. I'll check it out.

    Edit: Okay I think I understand the concept and it's great that it's implemented in TSW. However...
    1. That implementation is more than a little dramatic via the HUD wheelslip indication which 99% of the time means you had better ease back before breaking a coupling or damaging the wheels/rails.
    2. Should (maybe) have been built into the introductory tutorial for the loco to bring players' attention to this novel feature.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  12. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    Well if they made them unrealistically fast because of the ‘arcade game’ then a) it shouldn’t be called ‘sim’ as this implies attention to realism, and b) if they do that they should come up with a ‘slider’ setting on physics being less or more realistic. These shouldn’t be a huge difference but as I have suggested before, this could account for ‘old age’ physics rather than defying the laws of physics, which some content currently does.
     
  13. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I've found that I have to adjust my driving style as Paul suggested. The emus on the BML, for instance, are overpowered in my opinion, so I move the throttle very gently which still causes too much acceleration sometimes. On the other hand, the ACS 64 and F40PH are hard to get up to cruising speed unless you quickly go to notch 8. You get the feel of most locos in the game after driving them for a while.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's also possible that the RL trains do have that much power, but drivers are mindful of tossing the passengers about like ragdolls. Ultimately it's the driver who gets yelled at if Col Womblesby (Ret.) spills coffee down his tweeds and writes an indignant letter to somebody.

    (In fact, I suspect that somewhere in the regs there are restraints on acceleration lest one overstress and shorten the service life of the motors or transformer. I doubt they're allowed to yank it to 4 from a standing start).
     
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  15. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Yet there are the Caltrain drivers who according to DTG‘s survey team just slam the throttle in run 8 to start at a station :D
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The UK speed awareness course given to drivers shows that this is just not the case at all

    Generally the speed drop is an almost level curve from anything above 10mph, then it drops almost vertical, so whereas 10 - 9mph may take 2 seconds, 1 to 0 will be almost nothing. Several "deceleration curve" statistics sites area available online which confirm this
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes; but then nobody 's going to get whiplash from that- an FP40 accelerates like an ocean liner. (I always though it was a very poor choice for commuter rail).
     
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  18. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure everything accelerates too fast...
     
  19. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Beside the cl.150 i think the rolling stock isnt completly off to real.
    100% accuracy isnt something i expect, but when the wrong physics and lack of features start to break the immersion (cl150), then in this particular case i agree with the op.
     
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  20. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Well-Known Member

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    I haven't purchased the Class 150 so I can only comment on the preview and release streams. Simugraph is definitely capable of simulating a diesel hydraulic properly. Look at the DB 363 AND DB G6. They are beautifully modelled locos and the physics are brilliant. The upcoming DB 612 also looks and sounds fantastic. The physics are also looking very good.

    Back to the Class 150, it is one of those units that is quite infamous in the UK and definitely deserved some special attention to get it right. It is lovely in the visual department but the sounds and physics leave much to be desired. It's a shame because it can be better. DTG have proved this in the past with previous offerings.
     
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  21. NQuarter

    NQuarter Member

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    So even though the basic laws of motion were ignored, they also ignored data available online? I question why they thought a deceleration from 1-0 would be more of a Horizontal braking curve... Honestly though, I recon this Simmugraph or what ever it's called doesn't even have a curve range, and more of a percentage.
     
  22. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I was just running one of the all stations services on SF and it's almost impossible to keep time! You would have thought a DMU would be far more suitable than a heavyweight loco and coaches for the stop - start trains. Same on the Boston route to some extent.
     
  23. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yet the use of loco hauled commuter trains ( especially the F40PH ) is widespread in the US. MBTA, Caltrain, GO and METRA are prominent examples. They're usually used in push pull operation with a cab car. The FP40 was originally ordered by Amtrak for its shorter run services, though it saw use all over the Amtrak system. Many of the FP40PH's are ( or were ) ex-Amtrak rebuilds. Amtrak still uses a few for control cars, and I believe VIa Rail also has some units.
    But you're right, whenever I see a Metra train struggling to get up to speed from a station stop, I think " why don't they use a DMU? " Metra does have a few electric lines using EMU type traction.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  24. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    The main offender is definitely the Class 150 which seems to not have been set up as a hydraulic. The initial immediate acceleration followed by an acceleration rate that would make a EMU jealous really ruins what is an otherwise nice loco....
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean the "basic laws of motion" that you got wrong in your original comment, ignoring data available online?
    Seems it's easy enough to do
     
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  26. NQuarter

    NQuarter Member

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    So you're saying it's correct that it should take 2 seconds to go from 1Mph to 0 with a Brake application?

    You do actually understand my original Post, I state how "in game" it takes 2 seconds to go from 10 - 9, and also 2 seconds to go from 1 - 0? Yet you say that due to actual available data online, that isn't correct as under 10Mph the braking is more effective, which is actually just common sense when it comes to motion and friction.

    My "original post" wasn't me saying "it should take the same amount of time regardless of your speed"... it's me saying "this is how it happens in game, and it's not correct.

    So basically, all you have done is say what I was saying is correct, that DTG need to re-do their Braking as it's not correct.

    Mis-read? Seems it's easy enough to do.
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is the part I meant. Momentum plays less of a part than the fact that friction (both on the brake parts and on the ground) is much more effective when below about 5mph than above, you didn't mention that at all in your comment
    Yes, I saw that bit. In brake setting 1 on the EMUs I usually play with it does seem light but then I usually stop in application 2.
     
  28. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It‘s all about costs, I guess. Getting F40s (especially if pre-owned though I believe Caltrain had ordered new ones) was probably a lot cheaper than getting a (presumably European) manufacturer to build DMUs for you.
     
  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Something like a pair of 3 car Class 158’s or 170’s would be ideal for those Caltrain stopping services. It’s not just the acceleration but the braking, too. I know I drive like an old woman but you have to be far more cautious approaching the platform using loco and stock than you would in a unit. Generally I hit the start of the platform doing 25 to 30 MPH in a MU (especially the Plasticstar) but loco hauled no more than 15 MPH. Watch that punctuality drain away!
     
  30. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, I think Caltrain went the most sensible route. Electrify their network and switch to EMUs - nothing better than EMUs for commuter trains.
     
  31. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Where does that stand currently? I've heard that the latest plan is to begin service in 2024. As the cost for just the one line from San Francisco to San Jose is reportedly more than $2 billion, other systems are unlikely to follow suit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  32. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That‘s the latest I‘ve heard as well. To be quite frank, I don‘t claim to know much about economics and can‘t tell you if it‘ll all work out for Caltrain economically, but electrification seems like a logical step to me. The costs upfront are extreme, true, but running EMUs has to be significantly cheaper than F40/MP36 hauled coaches in addition to being able to provide much quicker service.
     
  33. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    There's definitely something not right between the 377 and 166. The 377 seems to have pretty weak brakes for a notch 2 application (I know they tweaked this a while back) and the 166 brakes seem to be way overpowered? They're much better than the 377 brakes in comparison. The acceleration of the 166 also seems to be too fast?
     
  34. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I lived in Cali and rode Caltrain quite a bit and worked in the industry. On light passenger trains this is exactly what they do - they will be in notch 8 by the time the train is moving, especially with locos like the intensely underpowered FP40. It can't pull the skin off custard.

    Go stand on one of the non terminus platforms and listen to them leave, if you can't do that there are plenty of examples on YouTube - they scream their way out of the platform working hard trying to maintain the schedule.

    Paul
     
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  35. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Its not about economics, it has been mandated as part of California's climate objectives/targets.
     
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  36. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Didn‘t know that. Thanks for telling me :)
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The older FP40s screamed all the time- when they ran HEP off the prime mover, they had to keep it turning at 900 rpm, even when stopped.
     
  38. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Well-Known Member

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    Here I thought British locos were the loud ones! Yet, in the states, they don’t growl, they scream! I do think that the states could do with a batch of DMU/EMUs for commuter and regional rail travel. The scrolling stock is badly outdated by today’s standards.
     
  39. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I think the Caltrain FP40's have separate HEP.
     
  40. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    They love their heavyweight equipment.
     
  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they do - now. As do the MBTA’s. But back in the day, when they were secondhand Amtrak locos or built to Amtrak spec, it was different
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What regional rail travel?
     
  43. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Well-Known Member

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    The ones that Amtrak do between states
     
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's hardly "regional."
     
  45. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Well-Known Member

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    What would Amtrak journeys be classed at? It’s certainly not inter-city in most of the country. Apart from Northeast Corridor though, they’re definitely do Inter-city services along there.
     
  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I would call it "long distance." To me "regional" is the sort of thing DB Regio does- which in the US would cover a few counties in a networked fashion. DB's biggest region is DB Regio Bayern (Bavaria), which is the largest state in Germany but in US terms only about the size of West Virginia (but with seven times WV's population).

    There are few places in the US a regional network like that could work- population density is too low. Possibly Southern California, the LA/Long Beach/San Diego corridor.
     
  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Isn’t the St Louis to Kansas City “Mule” an example of a regional service? A three car Class 158 or 170 would be more economical than a F40 pulling two or three Amfleet cars.
     
  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well,
    a) it would just be a point to point run (longer than München-Wien), hardly a network, and hardly "regional." Missouri is as big as half of Germany.
    b) It would not be economical to buy new trains when they have the rolling stock in inventory (Genesis, btw; Amtrak has retired its F40s) - especially for just one train pair per day.
     
  49. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    The line between "regional" and "inter-city" is quite blurry, and in a lot of cases probably overlaps (especially since the definitions for both are quite broad) and is quite dependent on population density.
    In some cases, you might even get "regional" services which extend further than "intercity" ones, just to confuse matters. - for instance, NSW Trainlink runs several lines which are labelled as "Intercity" (CC&N being a good example, running between Sydney and Newcastle) despite the services along that line still stopping at most stations (there are all-stop locals too), even the "express/limited" services. To confuse matters, the only service on that line that operates as a true inter-city (ie only stops at each end) is actually the "regional" ex-Countrylink XPT/Xplorer service (which extends outside of the metro areas, covering the rural/regional parts on the main lines as well as interstate-capital services)

    In short, tomayto tomahto.
     
  50. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Thanks mate. They would have been configured with separate HEP last time I rode in 2019 I imagine? I had a cab ride in 2001 when doing some work with Caltrain and that driver (ok, ok, engineer) would go to notch 2 until the train started to move and stretched then he'd fang it straight to notch 8. He did this every station departure.
     

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