Tsw - Simulation Or Not?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by joerg.lange, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Even addon makers who aim for extremely high detail like PMDG have ways for newer players to get in the sky quickly at this point. Suggesting the only way that the only way for DTG to appeal to new players is to completely ignore the advanced functionality is complete lunacy. Imagine applying that logic to controller and graphics options. Hey, someone with their Atari 2600 controller can't map everything, no point in having anything but basic throttle and reverser controls then! Oh, they also can't play the game beyond low settings, no point having the other settings for anyone then!
     
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  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I'm quite ready to pay N3V £55 or sign up to their monthly "plan" to test this, certainly not based on their past efforts. Don't get me wrong I do most of my route building in TRS19 having pretty much abandoned MSTS/TSRE and DTG TS as more trouble than they're worth. But until N3V start adding in features like timetable mode, remove the onus on the player to route and signal their own train, plus simulate braking systems other than air set and lap, it remains an imperfect product.
     
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  3. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    TSW doesn’t force you into using any onboard system, in almost every train you can do the bare minimum of Master Key, Reverser forward and throttle on, and none of the requests being made would change that.
     
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  4. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree its got a fair way to go. They've made some steps forward, in un-signalled areas your AI instructions like "run around train" just happen now, you don't need to switch the points. If there are signals you need to do that though. While it looks like its possible to set up trains to run while your train is running, its all monkey business really as there's nothing behind the scenes making it work.

    TSW2 is a loooong way out in front on those aspects.

    Paul
     

  5. To me, especially compared to Japanese video games of the 90s.... arcades.... and even simulators in museums in Japan, TSW IS a simulation.

    Can someone help me with PZB please! I can't seem to get the hang of it....... Please?

    When I turn it on I always get an emergency brake then can't move the train. I have tried youtube videos with Matt and another to help... but.....
     
  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Rule No. 1: don't turn on PZB when the train is moving!
     
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  7. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Try this link.

    Also:
    • switch on PZB when the train is stationary
    • for practice: leave the HUD switched on, DO NOT USE SIFA
    What is your level of knowledge? Do you know the key assignment for PZB? Which German locomotive / route do you use?
     
  8. Oh I thought SIFA was just a vigilance/deadmans button?
     
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I got caught with PZB on the move, it immediately defaults to restricted mode and slams the brakes on! Agree re SIFA, just an annoyance but PZB definitely needed especially when running fast. I will probably enable it on my 612, come Thursday evening.
     
  10. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course.

    But believe me, when you drive with PZB for the first time, the last thing you need is a SIFA that is annoying you every 40 seconds. At some point you're so confused that you no longer know who's beeping at you (SIFA or PZB) and then you get a forced braking and no longer know which system was it and why. Remember, there are situations where you confirm a yellow signal and at the same time the SIFA beeps... this drives every beginner crazy. Then you are so confused that you forget to keep to the braking curve.

    Therefore: one system at a time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
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  11. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    No. Don't do that. Absolutely not.

    On the 612, the GNT is added to the PZB (separate system for the higher speeds). Depending on the situation, you have to operate GNT and/or PZB. To do this, however, you must first master and understand the PZB. To learn PZB for the first time, the 612 is the worst possible idea.
     
  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Oh I have plenty of experience with the PZB, having learned the “trial by ordeal” in Zusi 2!
     
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  13. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Ah okay, sorry. I thought you wanted to do your first PZB trials with the 612, so to speak. Sorry.
     
  14. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    • Turn it on before you go.
    • Acknowledge every sign, signal, rock, beetle, etc. and you'll be ok :). Basically if a sign or a signal has a little rectangle box next to it, acknowledge as you pass over the box.
    • Generally you only need to acknowledge
      • adverse signals (anything not green),
      • signs telling you to slow down and
      • diverging instructions.
      • magnets a few hundred metres ahead of a signal by themselves, they are 500hz magnets and if the signal is red they're active
    • Sets of several magnets not near a signal are speed detectors
    Seriously, it does take a bit of getting used to but its fun. Learn the trains first, then try PZB. Don't try it in combination with anything else until you've learned it well enough.
     
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  15. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I"m totally the contrary to the OP. I don't really care about the simulation part. I used to shy away from games that had a name with "simulator" in it. My first introduction with them was probably in the nineties and did not understand what was fun about mimicking real life work on a computer. "Simulators" have evolved into games and that's what makes them interesting for me.

    I don't want to put commands into the screens. They are unreadable and in a foreign language. If I need to learn German to play a game I'm done. The ICE train has this and it's horrible. I don't understand how you can play this game in a fun way by fiddling those little screens whilst driving 240km/h. In this game it's like texting and driving. You need VR to be able to do this the right way.

    The game needs more simplifying and that's where the focus should be in my opinion. I'm a huge Formula 1 I know everything there is to know about formula 1 but I stiff prefer to play Formula 1 in a simcade style than in full sim mode. Controlling a real F1 car is very difficult, way too much buttons to push and levers to pull but Codemasters simplified those controls all to be easy to play with controllers. I would prefer a mapping that makes sense on controllers over being able to fiddle with screens.
     
  16. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Even if i not agree at all, nice to have also opinions from casual gamers here.

    I can immagine a simplified tsw would not bring more customers to tsw, instead it would just stop the already "small" playerbase from using it.

    For me tsw i an experience, not a time killer for 45min until the football game starts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  17. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Tsw is made the way, to have a simple casual experience too. If a player has a problem with german naming on a ice train, i suggest to go for derail valley. This is more arcade gameplay with economy aspects. No brands and licensing.
     
  18. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    Tsw 2017 Sand Patch Grade (CSX Heavy Haul) I say was a almost a Arcade game.
    The physics were not right in many things then.

    1: The trains had 40 carriages yet these had 4 locomotives. you could drive up 1.9 percent with just driving mode 1
    I managed to disconnect 3 loco so I only had one locomotive but could still easily drive up the hill easy at full speed (25 mph)
    In the same slope in run8 I had not even come up.
    After many years, Dovetail realized that all trains were unloaded ( among other errors )
    2: the diesel locomotive behaved completely wrong. They had cruise control. (driving mode 1 18 mph driving mode 2 25 mph and so on)
    after 3 years I think they fixed this problem
    3: Dynamic brake was completely hopeless. Can even not be explained. but it is now good
    4: There was no wind resistance at all. Train rolls in 0,1 percent in 60 mph. Not sure right now if it's everywhere.

    When these things been told No-one in dovetail said anything about this.
    Only when they fixed the errors did they acknowledge that the simulator was wrong.
    it almost created a severe irritation from us who brought it up.

    So TSW got a very bad reputation among those who thought physics was important
    and around Run8 people it was completely sentenced.

    But Tsw has taken many baby steps during this 5 year. and is now pretty good. Not quite Run8 quality yet
    but it feels like it's approaching. So I say now its a simulator. but it is only in the last year that I have changed.

    But I still wish they were looking at the physics and signals etc.
    When I compared the trains in Sherman hills in breaking, there are still quite big differences in time aspects.
    Now the TSW2 is to realistic Link
    and how dpu locomotives should work regarding air and control

    But the bottom line is that Tsw is a pretty good train simulator. and it is constantly evolving in the right direction.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  19. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why people think you can have a simulator for €30. That's even lower than the pricing of average video games. It's not the pricing of simulator software. Simulator software is made for a niche group and costs tons of money. TSW2 costs you €30.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  20. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve spent significantly more than $30 on TSW. Probably more than 10 times that.
     
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  21. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I just took a look at the Steam page and, having all dlc except the last two or three, I was shocked to discover that I must have spent over a grand on this game!

    antwerpcentral, you must be getting pretty bored by now with just those three starter routes. I'm assuming you've only spent 30 bucks. ;);)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
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  22. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    My game size is about 91GB. The last "simulator" I bought was a "simulator" that simulates the experience of driving a tilting train. It was damn cheap. It was even less than €30

    I just want to say you need to take in account that to make your simulator dreams come true for a cheapass price you will need to share this software with people who have other use for it in mind than you. A broad experience that appeals to a large group in order to keep the price down. Videogamers seem to like simulators so it's logical to try to be appealing for that crowd as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
  23. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    $20 at the minimum for one DLC isn't a "cheapass price" like you think it is, that's the cost of most games season passes. Even if we're just comparing it to simulators it's cheaper than more advanced flight simulation products, but it's also considerably more expensive than Euro/American Truck DLC. And even if we're talking base game price that holds true, MSFS and X-Plane are more expensive, but Euro Truck's cheaper in price.
     
  24. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going suggest, for your sanity, you never look at iRacing's pricing model £11 for a single track, £9 for a single car.

    Doesn't sound too terrible right?

    That's on top of a subscription to even be able to play the game.
     
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  25. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be happy if DTG went to a sub model. Say £20 a month but all DLC included.

    It would be far less then what I'm paying now per month for my hobby.
     
  26. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'd be sort of satisfied with the pricing if it wasn't for all the problems that follow it and the major problems that still haven't been addressed. I only buy English/Welsh (if they had any) routes as that is all I can afford.
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The bigger the sales volume, the less a vendor has to charge to cover its costs. If, say, Red Dead Redemption II were forecast to sell only as many copies as a TSW DLC (or all TSW DLC combined)- to cover its half-billion dollar development costs they would have to sell it for $1000 a copy. But since their sales are in the tens of millions, they can flog it for sixty bucks.

    Train sims are a niche market. Only so many potential buyers out there.
     
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  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You also get the 'less honest' companies out there that like to do some/all of the DLC before release and sell it to the unsuspecting public as 'brand new' DLC further down the line.
     
  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or others {coughEAcough} who strip content out of the original game, and then sell it as DLC.
     
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  30. Thank you. I'll keep re-reading this and the material for PZB....until I get it right.
     
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  31. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I've started plotting out the teaching journey for a PZB tutorial... It won't be a quick one to build or watch :)
     
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  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I will look forward to that with interest as I am struggling with the German trains.
     
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  33. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    RUN8 is a very serious simulator and it is USD$50 so not that much different.
     
  34. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I can't pretend to get it right all the time, but after lots of playing I'm getting ok at it. There are still times when PZB bites me and I hop out of the train and walk back to see what I missed :). There is usually a reason.

    What I would suggest is until you get the hang of it, keep your speed down - then you can worry about acknowledging signals and speed changes without having to worry about braking hard enough to get the speed change right. Doing that helped me learn.
     
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  35. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I had a look at it. How is that a simulator? Everything looks static. Ok you can have a cheapass simulator for $50 point proven. I'll stick to the video game :D
     
  36. 21c164fightercommand

    21c164fightercommand Well-Known Member

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    Is this a poll with voting buttons?

    No matter the claims made by DTG, to me TSW2 is still a game with some Newtonian physics simulated.

    The main target market being the gaming consoles,
    the fact that painting garden gnomes is present while a transportation business model is not.
     
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  37. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Different people expect different things from a simulator. (Yes, I'd think of Run8 as a simulator, also Derail Valley and the train sims by DTG). Can't TSW2 be a game and a simulator though? (Like how TS2xxx, xplane, FSX and MSFS are, but definitely not P3D obviously.)
    (P3D is apparently not for entertainment. Allegedly, according to the EULA, but also weirdly in the process reminding us that all simulators can usually also be games).
     
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  38. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    Sure. I'm all for having a video game that I can turn into a full fledged simulator if I wanted to. But what I always find confusing in topics regarding TSW and being a simulator is that people point to other train simulators as being "serious" simulators. I don't know those simulators so I don't know what is so wrong about those simulators that a so called not serious train simulator has to be tuned into a serious simulator. If this is not a serious simulator just leave the not serious train simulator to the not so serious train drivers ;)
     
  39. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    "
    RUN8 is a very serious simulator and it is USD$50 so not that much different.
    I had a look at it. How is that a simulator? Everything looks static."

    Someone seems to be confused about the definition of a simulator
     
  40. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    Yup very confused? A simulator should simulate real life and real life ain't static.
     
  41. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Pretend to be a train driver with this adequate (or not) digital product. This fully (or not fully enough) immersive pretending facilitator creates for you the illusion of being in control of a range of detailed (or not detailed enough) trains and locomotives, on a selection of authentically (or not authentically enough) reproduced real-world rail routes. Enjoy (or actively and determinedly not enjoy) pretending to be a train driver in Train Driver Pretending Facilitator World 2. Satisfaction guaranteed (or not guaranteed).

    So, not a game or a simulator, just a bunch of digital stuff to argue over (or enjoy). A pretending facilitation software environment. I’d buy that for a dollar.
     
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  42. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    antwerpcentral Okay, we've spent a while talking about what a simulator is. What's a game? I've played Run8 online with other people. People treat it very seriously (as they do TSW2 and TS2022). They also have fun (and presumably are playing it to have fun rather than to practice for an upcoming railyard practical). In xplane or msfs I like to simulate as much as seems reasonable the preflight, flight planning, realistic weather, realistic performance, realistic procedures etc. Others need VR or a multi-crew experience for it to be 'realistic'. Maybe FSX isn't a simulator because the physics are pretty unconvincing, I don't know.
    Nothing wrong with seeing TSW2 as a game, and/or as a simulator :)
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    WtF does a “transportation business model” have to do with simulation? Is there anything in reality remotely being “simulated” by combining the roles of driver and executive?

    BTW, Railroad Tycoon is usually classed as a game
     
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  44. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    For me the term 'SimCade' sums up TSW2. No doubt TSW2 has it's simulator side and no doubt TSW2 has it's gaming side, collectibles, scoring, no working Toilets (Joke, calm down).

    You also cannot crash the Train which is a danger in real life no? I know DTG doesn't want 'violence' in their game but it is a factor to consider if you are making a sim or not no? I can see both sides of the argument.
     
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  45. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    My only question that pertains to this whole argument is “Why do you care?” Is it to justify to yourself the reason you spend so much money as well as time away from the missus and ignore deadlines is that you are investing time on a serious simulator vice enjoying yourself playing a game?

    If you approach it as a simulator, then it is a simulator, if you approach it as a game, then it is a game. Pick one and don’t give a tinker’s damn what anyone else thinks.
     
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  46. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Very true of course. But it was Matt that brought the subject up no?
     
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  47. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Most who argue against it being simulator say so because they want it to be much more realistic, and thus become a sim by their definition. I don't agree with the premise that it isn't a sim, but I can understand why they care if it is or isn't.
    You can, I've derailed some cars by running into them too fast, but it's way too tolerant. I remember this one time slamming a Class 08 into buffers at 14 MPH, caused a good bump, but continued on like nothing happened. So yeah, they really need to do something about that, if you'd derail in real life you should derail in the game, simple as that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
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  48. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I very strongly disagree, for a number of reasons
    1. I'd get a lot of DLC I don't care about but for which I'd pay for anyway
    2. I'd end up paying more than I do. I have a lot of DLCs, but it's not one every month since 2018 when I started playing
    3. We lose the ability to vote with our wallet bad content, for example the BR187 and West Cornwall
    4. In my opinion this whole shift to subscription is bad, if I buy a game, wether digitally or physically I expect to OWN the game myself, with a subscription it feels more like I've leased something I don't actually own. Once I buy it, I own it. Full stop.
    5. It wouldn't make sense for the sizable part of the playerbase that only focuses on one aspect of the game, I.e. people that only buy british stuff, people that only buy modern, etc..

    Adding a season pass on top of owning the game could be a decent idea, but making TSW a subscription service, with all due respect, please no.

    For example I've just taken the decision of not buying anything for a bit - outside Steam - , unless it's something special, because I haven't enjoyed some of my recent purchases enough, I want to play more Brighton Main Line, more Class 313, more Chemnitz, and even a bit of Sherman Hill since I wasn't able to get it refunded, but I simply didn't have the time. With a subscription service I would lose my freedom to take these decisions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
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  49. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    I'm late in but would like to give input as a train driver who has gone through real simulators in 3 different countries.
    TSW absolutely trounces anything graphics wise I've seen in a pro simulator...but:

    1: Controls are usually the exact handles, buttons, positions of the loco/unit simulated.
    2: The instructor can set specific faults and failures at any given moment, as a "simulation". It isn't a game.
    3: The simulator manufacturer (usually the designers of the loco/unit in question) have the physics spot on, and can prove in-train forces with legally binding data sets.
    4: As noted above, the graphics are usually abysmal but, as a pilot will tell you, nothing beats having done an emergency procedure in a sim.

    So yes, TSW and Simrail look great and it is a sim, just an armchair sim.
     
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  50. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    KiwilLE is right - having 'flown' a 6-axis airbus sim (with shaking hands after a simulated emergency) TSW scenery graphics are superior, but overall there is no comparison just sitting in a chair, even with trackir. The difference will always exist, however good DTG gets at simulation. I wonder if anyone has created a home full-motion train sim, based on TSW, as some flight enthusiasts have done with X-Plane? As a side note related to realism, the FAA allows absolutely no stutters in an approved simulation and implicitly (without specifically stating) expects in excess of 60fps - so DTG has a way to go!
     
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