Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

I share the same opinion as you, I would much rather no local services until a suitable add-on or layer becomes available (add-on would be my preferred way)

 

Excellent but can we also get the fire going, can be very cold in those vans in the Winter! As kids, we used to go to the sidings where one or two of them were and get the fire going, used to be our sort of den but shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone.

 

Yes, when your GPU overheats trying to render all those yards and sidings and multiple tracks everywhere!!!

 

I'd love to see a couple of Diesels added as DLC in the future, I have seen photo's of the 08 at Crewe then so that would be good. I don't know if running steam and Diesel on the same route would cause problems?

I do think DTG have an opportunity that would see them get more right than wrong. If we are being honest we know it will be released with some bugs, going by what has gone in the past this will be guaranteed but the goal is limiting those bugs as minor so not game breaking.

With Steam being a special release for DTG on TSW2 and there being very knowledgeable people on these forums they could involve the people here with the making of it. For example if DTG regularly show updates and pics of what they are working on it will give the people here the chance to give feedback at every stage. Obviously some things can't be shared but others can, scenery, the Loco's, Track, stations ETC. As DTG can only work from photo's imo you will be surprised what some people have access too.

And with DTG do like to do 'Experiments' this would be a more successful one and may save them work afterwards if mistakes are spotted or DTG may get everything perfect first time? I don't think they will do this but if they did it would get a lot of interest no?

 

The simmugraph looks extended and advanced. Matt said on a stream before s.o.s got announced that there is an engineer working on that. In TS Classic on the Jinty you could blow your cylinders when you didnt open the c..ocks. Aslo the lubricant system could be activated, but not sure if the loco took damage from not doing this.

Basicly im not that worried, because in steam locos almost every interactable handle / valve is driving relevant. In a diesel loco a discusion is legitim of implementing traction cut out, because this is not normally driving relevant. In a steam loco you need everything, the dampers, injectors, cylinder c.ock handle, water valves.....,

The only things im not sure is, if there is damage when you smash the cylinders with condense water inside (like in the 3f of ts). Or if the lubrication system can be activated. many ts steam addons had different colors of the steam, so you knew if the fire is too weak or if you are wasting coal (the smoke becomes grey, white or black)
In the jinty a closed or open firebox made a difference when driving, so i hope they are gonna look also for details like that.

They should take the time they need for making this a top first steam dlc. Its a huge task, and im patient.

 

I think this is the most ambitious route that DTG have ever undertaken, it's huge and complex. Then there is the new steam technology. This is really a big bite, I wish them luck.

 

I wonder if you will get a game over "blowback" if you have the firebox door open going through a tunnel!

 

Yeah that is a danger and DTG would need a thick skin for sure. I was just thinking about the people who knew more about this route and could highlight mistakes but I take your point.

 

Well for anyone to have experience of this route at the time it’s set, by now they would be in their late 70’s or early 80’s.
And beware the expert witness (says he posted about Mark One seat coverings!). I remember years ago when doing the Cambrian Coast for MSTS with 3DTS, we had one particular guy who was adamant we had missed a culvert or small bridge at a particular location. Well, apart from the fact that MSTS didn’t do culverts or small bridges very well, reference to all the material I had showed no such structure at that location. So the guy was kindly thanked for his input and promptly forgotten about!

 

This is great. First day purchase for me. I can't wait for more steam routes to come. I want to see a narrow gauge steam at some point. It would be fun.

 

Disagree with comments about this route being boring, Lime Street is a grand station in anyones eyes and the gradient out of it a large challenge to get started. Then it will be past the vast yards in Edge Hill and a run through the suburbs until Halebank when a bit of countryside starts. This should be brief as Widnes comes into view and the line swings up and right towards the Ethelfreda bridge over the Mersey. That will be awesome to do. After Runcorn it's over Weaver junction and the Weaver viaduct and the run to Crewe through Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford. Crewe will be massive to see in this era. Its still impressive today in its reduced form but this will be something else.

I was disappointed years ago when railworks went for York to Newcastle over Crewe to Liverpool not just because of my local connections but there is far less to see in between. Liverpool at the time was still a massive railway centre also with lines from the docks feeding in.

Let's hope its OK on the performance front. I was pondering a RTX 3070 machine today in anticipation.....

 

The advantage for DTG in using Mark 1s is that they can be used on just about any vintage BR route, whereas prewar coaches mostly stayed in the regions where their parent railroads had been. Stanier stock wouldn't be much use on a steam/early diesel ECML.

 

Well, DTG have the numbers for how well steam routes sell in TS vs modern and vintage diesel/electric, so presumably they believe the market exists.

 

Also I assume that DTG aren't intending every steam route or loco to take 18 months to make. Developing new stuff takes longer, once they're in their flow it'll be quicker I imagine.

 

But the same can be easily said for most locomotives, though.

 

what will operate local passenger/light freight on this route? the jubilees were more for express pax while the 8fs were more heavy freight. wondering what will be used as station pilots

 

Not sire how I feel about this route. Firstly, I know absolutely nothing about steam trains and that era of locos. When steam was first announced I wasn’t bothered either way. Now the route has been announced I am leaning more towards seeing more of it but will want to see more before I decide whether it will be on my “wait for a sale” list.

 

I believe 8F's were used along with Jintys at Euston on ECS to Willesden. Likewise sometimes engines off a previous arrival could be used tender first to move ECS away, then light engine to the depot. Same could apply in reverse, once turned and serviced work in ECS to the station then on release become the train engine for a departure. Of course all this will require impeccable choreography and a massive amount of scripting to work properly and avoid locking up the station.

At this stage we don't know what the timetable will consist of. Certainly wasn't a clock face hourly service to/from Euston like it is now. There used to be a site with old Bradshaws on it (Ribble something) but seems to have vanished.

 

Most, yes but not all. Black Fives and 8Fs could be seen nearly anywhere. It's the express passenger engines which really become road-specific.

 

My Late father was a keen spotter in the 50s in Liverpool, he would tell me tales of seeing the prototype Deltic and 10000/10001 amongst the Scots, Jubs and Fives. I grew up in the 80s on the route near Mossley Hill so not my era but definitely interested. I hope the scripting works out so that operations can be without daft lock ups.

 

I didn't expect anything other than mark 1's with this first steam route, but if they want to strive for realism then seeing mark 1's and nothing else on steam period routes is wholly unrealistic.

In the late 50's/early 60's mark 1's were express passenger coaches and would rarely have been seen off the beaten track or on local services.

 

Interesting, have managed to abstract the daytime Down Liverpool weekday service from Euston in 1958 from the SIAM game (which runs from 0700 to 1900). There are not actually that many trains:
7.55 Liverpool 8
8.30 Liverpool 7
9. 5 Liverpool Relief 6
10.30 Liverpool 7
12.30 Liverpool 7
14.25 Liverpool Relief 6
14.30 Liverpool 7
16.45 Liverpool Relief 6
16.55 Liverpool 7
18.10 Liverpool 8

The number to the right indicates the "P" class of loco required.

 

It's interesting that DTG chose to place this first steam route specifically in 1958, right on the cusp of dieselization. That's why there's so much discussion here about transitional dlc. It leaves open the possibility of a diesel add-on pack with maybe a Class 40 for expresses and an early dmu, like a 104 or 105 for stopping services. Or am I in left field?

 

Part of me hopes that any diesels can be disabled on the route (maybe by just not buying the possible-future DLC I suppose).

 

According to the stream, it's 1958 (as opposed to the original intended date, 1955) because of the availability of research material from that year.

I think that if DTG were really thinking in terms of diesel layering, they would have shoved the date forward into the 60s when the 37s, 45s and 47s were in use - and wouldn't have been thinking 1955!.

 

That's interesting, presumably therefore the Jubilee wouldn't have run many of those services, as it was a 6P.

 

7P would require a Royal Scot, then.

 

June 1958 London Midland Region Timetable. Tables 50 and 96 appear to be the ones:

https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=1987099b-01c5-47f7-a8dd-ba173774ceb5

If anyone needs me in the next few hours, you know where I'll be....

 

Class 104's were more Manchester, Leeds and Darlington based, they would have likely worked some Manchester to Liverpool trains but I imagine Liverpool to Crewe locals would have been supplied by Allerton depot until the EMU's came, so mostly class 108's, there may have been some early Derby lightweights. Class 105's would not have been seen in Liverpool at that time either, I think the Derby area was their main Midland region stomping ground at the time.

It might be the case that DMU's never even worked Liverpool to Crewe services. It is likely that steam gave way to electric.

 

Nice find James. Time to do some reading up.

 

Picture of that here

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...958-picture-and-video-reference-thread.51276/

 

A brief look at those timetables shows quite a lot of trains actually, some of the expresses going to Birmingham not London. I wonder if we will get a Mk1 sleeper for the overnights?! Interesting to note the restaurant car only working between Euston and Crewe or vv, whether it would be detached/attached at Crewe or simply destaffed I couldn’t say. Also evident a fair bit of local traffic, which is definitely going to need to be layered in but not with a Jub.

 

Brilliant, well done for finding this!

I really hope that this route comes with the real timetable - it's got some real variety and trains going off at all sorts of strange intervals. Several of the stoppers out of Lime Street appear to terminate either at Ditton Jnc or Runcorn - it'll be interesting to see what happens to the locomotives and carriages then.

Again, seeing some of the stopping trains really does suggest that a local mixed traffic locomotive (tank engine or similar) would be necessary to fully recreate the route (you can use an 08 as a shunter, but I doubt they would have been seen pulling passenger trains or freight any more than a few miles).

 

Very happy with this announcement...

side thought - will we ever get a modern Northern England route or not?

 

All depends on Northern giving the license - traditionally the Northern operator/s have always turned their nose up at it (hence why it's always debranded in TS1). May well be if we do it's in the early 90s with sprinters (wouldn't make much difference, not much has changed since then fundamentally)

 

I think the ones which appear to terminate at Ditton Junction will actually have been going to Warrington (Ditton Junction being where the Warrington/Manchester and Runcorn/Crewe lines divide).

 

Actually there are a few hefty gaps in the week (far more SO services). For example on the Up...
You have a 1205 to Ditton stopper with the next departure I can see being the 1335 to Ditton, then The Manxman non stop at 1405 to Euston (how will that be handed at Crewe?). There are actually more trains towards Chester via Frodsham than towards Crewe

 

I may be reading it wrong (I've only had a quick look as I'm supposed to be working but frankly I'm so bored I could just dissolve at any moment), it seems the train splits at Crewe?

 

It would be interesting if anyone has access to a working timetable that includes freight workings and ECS too.

 

You could be right, as some mention a Rugby portion.
This is going to get interesting!

 

One thing that stands out is that the stopping patterns of the longer distance trains are far less predictable than today. Take the 0905 SX Lime St - Euston. It calls at Edge Hill, Runcorn, Hartford and Crewe. Quite a few of the longer distance trains have a Mossley Hill call as well. Hopefully that will be reflected in the game, and we'll get the opportunity to stop at a variety of stations - rather than endless opportunities to do Lime St-Runcorn-Crewe, which is what we would (correctly) get if it were a modern timetable.

 

So just how many of these in cab switches,buttons,valve controls,levers will be used to operate this locomotive?

 

I also think steam would look fantastic on the Clinchfield!

 

Its simple: All of them

With the long handle you apply power, the reverser you turn fully to eather one side for your direction, and with more speed and torq you turn it to the center (like a gear ratio).
The live or exhaust steam injectors are used to bring your water from the tank into the front part. The difference is when driving you can use the exhaust steam for that, and when you are at a station for example you use the live steam from the boiler to bring water inside .
Cylinder c.ocks need to be able to open (when you at a station for a long time condense water is created in the cylinder, without opening you can have a really bad day).

The dampers are used for the fire and with the blower you can "enhance" the steam generation in the boiler for example on a station when stationary. The firebox has to be working . Watergauges needs to be working, since there was no Hud back in 1958. Obviously the vacuum brake, which is similar to the cl.101 with a lap position.

The question is how far they are gonna implement consequences when you not handle the loco properly. For me is important the different smoke colors. From that you know when your coal is burned and when its time to grab the shovel.

I hope they implement at least damage of cylindercocks. The lubrication system and coach heating should made interactable. Technicly the heating uses also steam, so it would be realistic on a passenger loco.

There is really no way for dtg to take short cuts since all handles are driving relevant.

 

The job was made by a driver and fireman. Very challenging for no hud drivers want do both jobs and take care of the 1700 signals.

 

That can work for a US Steam route in addition to Sherman Hill. Germany either West Germany DB or East Germany DR DDR 18 201 for DCZ 1980s

 

I expect there will be a modified HUD for steam showing the essential readings, steam pressure, boiler water level, fire level/temp etc. Similar to TS Classic. They are going to need more than a few new key commands - blower, damper, firebox/shovel and injectors. If anyone has tried the steam loco in Derail Valley (which has no auto fireman), you have to physically interact with all the controls which makes it virtually impossible to drive and see where you are going. That was driving at around 20 MPH with no signals to monitor. Crewe to Liverpool will be a different story, running at up to 70 MPH, trying to check a procession of semaphore gantries.

 

They did have this:

picture credit

 

OldVern I'd been wondering about the HUD last night. Wondering about how much they'd redesign the HUD to show pictorial representations of cylinder LOVE state, dampers etc., or whether a lot of it would be shown in an F5-style text-based overlay. Or maybe some of it will just be checked on the controls themselves, similar to the Transition Lever on Clinchfield.
Also, the warnings about the next upcoming signal and next upcoming speed change could potentially have the next upcoming tunnel added

Also thought about RailDriver again. I'd said previously that RD wouldn't really work with steam. But maybe it would be okay for the reverser, regulator and brake levers and the other controls can be controlled in-cab.

edit: I notice that the forum filter has replaced that control that is used to allow condensed water to safely exit the cylinders with the word love (cylinder love). Nice. Ironic when potential modelling of damage to cylinders was mentioned above. "Show them some love".