Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

I also think steam would look fantastic on the Clinchfield!

 

Its simple: All of them

With the long handle you apply power, the reverser you turn fully to eather one side for your direction, and with more speed and torq you turn it to the center (like a gear ratio).
The live or exhaust steam injectors are used to bring your water from the tank into the front part. The difference is when driving you can use the exhaust steam for that, and when you are at a station for example you use the live steam from the boiler to bring water inside .
Cylinder c.ocks need to be able to open (when you at a station for a long time condense water is created in the cylinder, without opening you can have a really bad day).

The dampers are used for the fire and with the blower you can "enhance" the steam generation in the boiler for example on a station when stationary. The firebox has to be working . Watergauges needs to be working, since there was no Hud back in 1958. Obviously the vacuum brake, which is similar to the cl.101 with a lap position.

The question is how far they are gonna implement consequences when you not handle the loco properly. For me is important the different smoke colors. From that you know when your coal is burned and when its time to grab the shovel.

I hope they implement at least damage of cylindercocks. The lubrication system and coach heating should made interactable. Technicly the heating uses also steam, so it would be realistic on a passenger loco.

There is really no way for dtg to take short cuts since all handles are driving relevant.

 

The job was made by a driver and fireman. Very challenging for no hud drivers want do both jobs and take care of the 1700 signals.

 

That can work for a US Steam route in addition to Sherman Hill. Germany either West Germany DB or East Germany DR DDR 18 201 for DCZ 1980s

 

I expect there will be a modified HUD for steam showing the essential readings, steam pressure, boiler water level, fire level/temp etc. Similar to TS Classic. They are going to need more than a few new key commands - blower, damper, firebox/shovel and injectors. If anyone has tried the steam loco in Derail Valley (which has no auto fireman), you have to physically interact with all the controls which makes it virtually impossible to drive and see where you are going. That was driving at around 20 MPH with no signals to monitor. Crewe to Liverpool will be a different story, running at up to 70 MPH, trying to check a procession of semaphore gantries.

 

They did have this:

picture credit

 

OldVern I'd been wondering about the HUD last night. Wondering about how much they'd redesign the HUD to show pictorial representations of cylinder LOVE state, dampers etc., or whether a lot of it would be shown in an F5-style text-based overlay. Or maybe some of it will just be checked on the controls themselves, similar to the Transition Lever on Clinchfield.
Also, the warnings about the next upcoming signal and next upcoming speed change could potentially have the next upcoming tunnel added

Also thought about RailDriver again. I'd said previously that RD wouldn't really work with steam. But maybe it would be okay for the reverser, regulator and brake levers and the other controls can be controlled in-cab.

edit: I notice that the forum filter has replaced that control that is used to allow condensed water to safely exit the cylinders with the word love (cylinder love). Nice. Ironic when potential modelling of damage to cylinders was mentioned above. "Show them some love".

 

A grab from the Bossman manual for the 8F in Train Simulator. All can be operated by the mouse or keyboard.

 

hehe that are a lot of things to control
makes me wonder if there will be an easy drive mode for steam trains
or a perfect tutorial with all the steps
or else everyone needs to study the manual for some time :P

 

Well I don't think anything is confirmed yet and although it would be disappointing if some of the controls don't work, it is still a WIP I think.
On TS1 there's an easy mode for most locos (especially those by DTG) and I think Matt wants the same in TSW2. Also the autofireman that Matt talked about in the stream will handle a bunch of the controls (injectors, firebox and anything with water in the name presumably other than the waterscoop, which isn't likely to be needed very often on this route as it is only needed when the tender water gets low and this route may not have water troughs).

 

Had a quick look on Steam for the TS 8F but can’t see it listed. Any idea how it’s described?

 

OldVern It is by BMG if that helps. Was on offer (40% off) this weekend, as was their Jub.

 

It's in the Pro Range. A bit more from the manual which shows they could/may provide varying levels of difficulty.

4.16 Driver & Fireman Assistants
Using the headlights button on the HUD it is possible to switch on various
assistance systems which help the player control the loco.
Mode Number Mode Description
1 Automatic fireman.
2
Automatic fireman, water trimmer assistance and boiler warning
indications.
3
Automatic fireman, water trimmer assistance, boiler warning
indications water level alarms.
4
Automatic fireman, water trimmer assistance, boiler warning
indications water level control.
5
Automatic fireman, F4 HUD now disables the reverser lock and
opens small ejector.

 

Thing is, the TS1 8F looks like a great product (I bought it at the weekend after the announcement), but it is a different product by a different developer for a different simulator.
BMG are helping DTG, but this is a DTG's baby I think. A closer comparison would seem to be with Riviera in the 50s for example. On that, there is an Expert/Legacy mode. Here's a description from the Riviera In the 50s manual: "The steam locomotives included with this route have both “Expert” and “Legacy” modes. Legacy mode allows the user to drive the steam locos without using complex controls such as the ejectors, and also doesn’t use the realistic steam chest simulation. In expert mode, all controls need to be used to get the best out of the loco and a real steam chest simulation is present. To toggle between these modes, press B."

edit: What I think they're saying here is that if you drive with autofireman and legacy mode on then the simulator will take care of adding coal to the fire, adding water to the boiler and using the ejectors when taking the brakes off. The steam chest simulation adds a delay between moving the regulator to add steam, and that causing the loco to move. Basically, although there's still stuff to worry about (not running out of steam by using it too quickly, not going through red signals etc.), there's a lot less to worry about.

 

What a monster that engine was

 

Indeed. I’d love to get my hands on something like that in TSW at some point.

 

I think they go in full advanced. The auto heater would be a simple mode, so he takes care about coal and water.

The other way all the effort to bring steam to life with cutted back functionality..., that wouldnt be fun and im almost sure its not the case. Ts made progress with many impressive dlcs in steam, so it has to be at least better than that with the benefits of simmugraph.

 

I wonder if they'll implement something like the driver's assist (or whatever it was called) that was on Riviera in the 50s and then nothing else. It was basically a series of pop-ups advising you to do something while the scenario was running, and highlighting the control. It wasn't perfect, IIRC it broke if you had the auto fireman on, but was good for learning outside of a tutorial environment.

 

I am intrigued as to how budding driver-firemen will be able to perform the essential steam locomotive functions with a controller. I imagine many will be able to be mapped to an expanded Operations Shift.

I admit to being rather disappointed that it will not be possible to fire the engine whilst the AI takes care of the driving. Perhaps one day this could be partially solved with a two person multiplayer co-op option?

 

I am very much looking forward to steam in TSW. My best TS experiences were with Smokebox steam trying to drive and fire over busy routes with grades - it is quite a challenge and will keep you busy.

One way to learn how to fire was to use the “expert automatic fireman” and watch what happened. You can also get a “firing report” at any time during the run; it makes for great screenshots to share. Finally, if you get in trouble firing during a run, enabling the expert will get your fire in better shape.

With the Big Boy - highly recommended! - there is also an expert automatic engineer. You can turn on either the fireman or the engineer. You can even run with both where all you need to do is blow the whistle and bring the train to a complete stop when needed.

It is outlined in the manual on page 28:
https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/...-_Big_Boy_Manual_-_EN.pdf?t=1622120549#page28

The programming looks to be complex and more appropriate for later attempts at steam simulation once all the other complexities have been ironed out.

Automatic engineer would not work with AI physics. It would require a whole new set physics for a realistic in cab experience based on the state of the fire and appropriate behavior for player driven locos.

 

It would be great if the timetable was set just prior to the station closure (say a week or two). That way you could add some great historically accurate signs advertising the loss of service (assuming the team can find reference material).

I've seen lots of examples for other stations that were closed in this period. This was from Stockport Tiviot Dale in 1967, admittedly a bit later but I'm sure they'd be something similar.

 

Slight downer from me. Just tried the Bossman 8F in TS, had to give up in consternation and refund it. Seems to have been designed for the "pro" user, but I couldn't even get the reverser to engage and very few of the standard keys/processes work. Hopefully the TSW version will come with easier controls as an option and a decent tutorial, which of course is what's missing in TS.

 

Yeah, you really have to study the manual of BMG locos in-depth. Were you engaging/opening/whatevering the reverser lock?

 

I pressed and held down E, W shot straight to 100% with no control, released E but then the reverser still snapped back to 0. Too complex for my old brain!

 

Why giving up that fast? My personal recommendation for learning steam is the 3f jinty for ts.
Can i ask where were the difficulties? Was it the operation of the engine it self or the inputs with your controller?

 

Looks like it's the fact the HUD doesn't correctly show the state of the controls which had thrown me. Ah well, next time it pops up in a sale I'll give it another go.

 

Forget the hud. Use the gauges and the color of the steam. You dont need anything else.

 

I'm sure in the future there will be a steam route I'll want to buy, but this time around DTG have picked the route I care about the least, in a part of the country that isn't very glamorous. Liverpool and Crewe might have nice stations but it's what is in between that counts, and what's in between isn't very interesting.

And as for the locomotives (thanks for the insults everybody), they may be internally very different - and I'm glad both are being added - the problem for me is that they look so similar. I'm a complete supernerd and for years I couldn't tell the difference between an 8F, a Jubilee and a Black 5. When the largest visible difference is the wheels, there's not enough difference.

 

Do you use the F5 HUD? Sometimes a bit tricky to see when driving a steamer (it's white text with no background, so it often blends into the clouds.) but gives much more accurate information about the loco than the F3/F4 HUD does.

 

What an intriguing location. I know nothing about the area so have been doing some research.

Between them, Edge Hill and Crewe North & South loco sheds provide a huge amount of potential additional traction DLC. I'm sure that Ed (MeshTools) & Ben (Bossman Games) are already even busier. Various 5MT & 3Fs seem to be the traction of choice for everything else, along with a huge overhang of some rather lovely, esoteric, legacy locos.

Completely agree with and trust the strategic decisions made -
Length ~37 miles because of the huge number of assets required. Given the lower speeds of the time, I guess it'll probably work out at nearly an hour for an end to end run anyway.
Limiting the complexity eg no branches, modifying the existing Mk1 coaches and wagons, modular buildings and signals
Liverpool - second port of the empire as was, so huge people & freight flows from an iconic station and a huge yard
Crewe - main line, huge interchange both for passengers & locos, loco works that open the way for new steam & diesel and non native locos for scrapping or maintenance
As the first route in a new era all the assets for 1950s Britain and 1950s British Railways have to be modelled from scratch. It sounds like a lot of fun for the art team.

Shed traction (quantity order) -
Edge Hill - 3F Fowler Jintys, 7F Beames G2s, 5MT Black 5s, Passenger (Patriot, Jubilee, Royal Scot, Princess Royal), 8Fs
Speke Junction - mainly freight locos for working out of Garston Docks. 3F Jintys, 7F Super D, 8Fs, the LMS D3 diesels, D20/1 (TOPS 40) diesels.
Crewe North - Express passenger locos to London & Preston and mostly LMS 5MTs and down to LMS 1Fs.
Crewe South - A freight/MT shed. Roughly equal numbers of 3Fs (Fowler Jintys & Johnson) and 5MTs (Hughes Crab, Stanier Black 5 & Lobsters), LMS D3 diesels, some wartime 8Fs and a miscellany of smaller locos. Some early BR diesels D2 (TOPS 04), D3 (TOPS 08), D10 (TOPS 20). Various locos passing through to or from the works - express passenger locos from Edge Hill, new 9Fs, 2 & 4MTs.

In terms of other assets, hopefully we'll get some lovely light trucks, used for local delivery from the yards -
Scammell Scarab 3 wheeler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scammell_Scarab
Karrier Bantam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karrier

I'm loving this - there's so much to it.
(and if it all goes tits up, which it won't, the boss is to blame)

 

Probably there are already loco dlcs in planning. Small shunters like the 3F are needed, and the wagon fleet didnt show any milk or petroleum wagons, so likley they come with the first dlc.

Looks to me like you didnt lock the reverser in your adjusted position when adding steam power with the handle.

 

Good luck with GWR steam locomotives then. They're so similar that from common parts you can build one from another.

Seriously though, the loco choice seems to be based on what Bossman Games have already produced, in which case the Jubilee and 8F are probably the best choices. A Black Five, Royal Scot, Patriot and a Stanier Mogul could have been the alternatives, which are all very similar looking also. I wouldn't mind seeing the Meshtools Stanier 4MTT make the light of day in TSW though.

 

Looking at the route and all the signals that DTG have to get right is this route in danger of being a Rush Hour mark II. Good intentions but missing the mark because of time constraints?

Don't get me wrong I'm well chuffed Crewe are in there, I like the industrial side of the Railway just as much as the scenery, but given that this is DTG's first steam route in TSW2 wouldn't it have been better to pick a much more simpler route just to get in the swing of doing Steam?

I can hear DTG saying they had to cut back the route which (even though I would not have picked this route) would be a shame to to some no? Wallingford - Cholsey would have been perfect, hehe. I would of thought if they had chosen a simpler route but one which could be added to just to test and get things running.

 

I sincerely hope that all the locomotives will made to be fully compatible with Raildriver controller ‼️

 

35.5 miles according to the timetable of the day. The fastest I can find is 51 minutes, start to stop, on the 08:40 Liverpool Lime St - Euston, first stop Crewe. Most trains take quite a bit longer than that though.

 

This is why I would have been more confident if they had done something like the S&D or any of the others on my wish list, maybe even just a short branch line. Proof of concept and all that. I fear the complexity of the route and steam physics may prove too much. I can’t really see how they could shorten the route any more than it already is though, no logical loccation between Crewe and Lime Street to cut it off at.

 

Having a short branch line would be a bit underwhelming though, going big is probably the best way to attract the largest audience. Same strategy as back when Great Western Express was released as the first UK route in TSW, DTG chose a complex route over something simpler (West Somerset followed however).

 

I added the short branch line as an afterthought, but something like the S&D or Mallaig Extension with relatively uncomplicated infrastructure would have offered substantial gameplay without the risk of running into massive optimisation issues. Of course there wouldn't be quite the DLC possibilities that Crewe to Liverpool may offer, but then no one's going to buy add ons if it runs like a dog. I guess only time will tell if they made the correct decision.

 

That's assuming we get low performance. Train Simulator is far less optimised and unstable compared to TSW, it does run slower with steam but nothing game-breaking, so I remain hopeful. If anything TSW would handle it better, having a more modern architecture. Regardless, the skills of the developers in optimising it all will be critical here, which is why I'm slightly cautious about a release scheduled 'in a few months' when they haven't tested steam in a complete state yet. Those few months need to be used to ensure it runs smoothly. Hopefully it doesn't result in a delayed or disappointing release.

 

Absolutely. The particle effects will probably be a nightmare to implement with little performance impact. Especially when, as Matt said, they want steam to be bouncing of bridges and such.

 

The GWE was intended to be far longer than what we were left with (less than a third of the route) and they blamed it on time constraints.

 

Looking at snapshots of the depot allocations from BRDatabase in 1958 gives some idea of what future DLC locos are possible. I believe there will be 3 depots included in the route, being Edge Hill, Crewe North and Crewe South. The Jubilees are allocated to Edge Hill and Crewe North whilst the 8Fs were mostly based at Crewe South, with a few at Edge Hill.

Edge Hill
Crewe North
Crewe South

The Princess Royal class 4-6-2 are a good bet, being roughly divided between Crewe North and Edge Hill, as are the Fowler 3F 'Jinty', being allocated to Edge Hill and Crewe South.

Whilst popular, I can't see them adding the Black Five as it's too similar to the Jubilee and 8F and in fact is part of the same family of locos which share very similar boilers all with the same 68.375" maximum boiler diameter. The Jubilee (type 3A), Black Five (type 3B), 8F (type 3C) and Stanier Mogul (type 3D) differ primarily in regards to firebox length and length across tube sheets, of which the type 3A has the longest firebox and tubes/flues. Two Jubilees - 45735 and 45736 were rebuilt with the larger type 2A boiler as found on the Rebuilt Royal Scots.

 

Let's be honest, if they had the time and money, GWE would've gone all the way to Penzance and/or Wales. From what Matt said, the branches to GWE weren't cut because they ran out of time, they were cut because it was felt they needed the scope to be much simpler.

 

Yes, the Bath- Templecombe route would have made a gentle introduction to steam. I cut my teeth, as it were, learning to drive steam locos on that route. Not too difficult, as I recall. Then there was the Q1 and the Spitfires doing somersaults overhead. Those were the days. ​

A bit short for TSW, though, unless it was extended to the coast.

 

In mileage yes, but not in journey time. Looking at a couple of timetables (as I mentioned in another thread somewhere) it took absolutely forever to get from Bath to Templecombe.

 

Wow, I’ve never heard of that before! Did they ever publicly talk about that or is it just a rumor?

 

If DTG were vehemently opposed to everything but the most unique locomotives for TSW that would be one thing. But that's clearly not the case when you look at lines like London Commuter and Harlem Line, those make use of locos which are very similar to ones which already exist in TSW. If it fits the route I'd be surprised if DTG don't push to get it made, especially considering Bossman are already familiar with the Black 5.

 

Correct and if WCML Liverpool-Crewe needs more steam locomotive a Standard 2-6-4 4MT Belle or Ivatt 2MT Arthur can do the Job shunting & Mk1 coaches commuter while a Black Five Henry runs both Freight and Mk1 Coach passenger

 

To be honest an LMS or LMR route without a black five is like having a WR route without a Pannier or London to Brighton without an Electrostar (well maybe not that extreme).

However personally, if there is to be some DLC, which I assume there will be, some representing local passenger traffic would be good, something like a Fowler/Fairburn/Stanier 4mt with some non mark 1 carriages. These could be used on freight and parcels service too.

A Jinty would be nice but a black or BR green class 08 would have been very common by 1958, or maybe we could have the LMS designed class 11 or class 12 (I forget which one it was).

 

Was pondering last night what worked the stopping services to Ditton that we see in the timetable, prior to DMUs being introduced. Definitely scope for a DLC as the planners and controllers are not going to waste a Jub and set of Mark Ones on a local train, except as a last minute replacement for a failure.