Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

I am certain you wouldn't have seen a Jinty working a local on a mainline route, especially 30 odd miles. Unlike the Pannier tank, Jinties weren't used overly much on passenger services and where they were it was mainly branchline work. Certainly a Liverpool to Crewe stopper would have used a medium to large tank engine or a smaller tender engine, if not something like a black 5.

It will be interesting to see if there are local train in the timetable or maybe gaps for them!

Long term it will need something I feel to keep it interesting. A trainspotter in the 1950's standing on Crewe, Liverpool Lime Street or somewhere like Runcorn would have been treated to a procession of different engines on different services and a variety of rolling stock both passenger and freight. Whilst I don't think anyone in their right minds would expect a total recreation of that experience, especially straight away, it would be nice to think in a years time we might have had a couple of extra DLC's and therefore you might not be able to predict what type of engine is on the next arrival at Runcorn.

 

I stand corrected! In that case a Black Five (plus green 08 for shunting) feels the easiest way to have an appropriate loco? What are the main differences between a 5 and a Jubilee, other than the number of cylinders (2 vs 3 I think)?

 

As WonterRail pointed out, two all-new engines breaks the mold; it's too much to expect three (especially since steam is a brand-new frontier for DTG's loco-builders). I do think interest could be increased if they included or layered in shunting with the green 09, which is period-appropriate and would make some use of the massive railyards they have recreated along with all the new freight wagons. Perhaps in the fullness of time it could be replaced with an 0-6-0 saddle tank, but for now it will do.

 

Strictly speaking the 09 was primarily based on the Southern Region, so it would have to be an 08.

 

We did get three new locomotives with GWE (HST / 166 / 66) - although I agree this is an outlier.

In principle I agree with what you're saying but to argue the other case for a moment:

- Steam is brand new and doesn't have many reusable assets at the moment or anything to layer in really
- Steam is, more than any other era, defined by the variety of locomotives / rolling stock
(and this is where it gets a bit 'how hard can it be?')
- The collaboration with BMG means that at least the basic existing models of the Black Five are available, and the similarity in operation could mean that a whole load of work can be carried directly over from the Jubilee. The Simugraph would need a bit of tweaking to reduce to 2 cylinders.

Speaking in hope more than expectation, I don't think DTG have confirmed anywhere that these are the only two locomotives coming with the route - it could be that they've held something back for a bit closer to release, or because they're not yet ready to show it.

Side note: does anyone know if the Class 40 would have been seen on local trains? There was at least one allocated to one of the sheds on this route in 1958 from my Googling.

 

40s would have been on express services

 

Matt said on stream, with Adam I think, that they wanted the GWE to be longer but decided to stop at Reading because of time restraints.

Also you can't get much simpler than just going to Reading no? IMO it should of gone to Bristol at least, even if they delayed it. The players wouldn't have minded, it is the bean counters who did.

 

That would have more than tripled the length of the route- and forced DTG, for its second TSW route ever, to make a route longer (112 miles) than it has even now, four years later.

 

Fine by me! Although that would never happen but they are other stations they could have stopped at, Bath, Swindon or Even Didcot. And if they able to merge routes in the future Didcot would open up a lot of other possible routes. I'm biased I know that but Paddington - Reading for GWE is a bit short imo.

 

Also, if they ran it out to Bristol, they would also have had to make a 158 for the local traffic at that end. That's four new locos in one DLC.

 

Yeah, sounds a lot better than the one we got eh?

 

And how much would you have been willing to pay for this splendiferous route?

 

How many bugs and inaccuracies are we talking here? Seriously, I would definite pay more for something I really want more than any other route in the game.

 

Hopefully some of the actual freight branches will be used here, namely the Winsford branch and the ICI Winnington works branch in conjunction with Wallerscote sidings (Inbetween Acton Bridge & Hartford), Also and I know this could be a stretch as it diverges off the mainline for a few miles there was a substantial goods yard at Northwich that was accessed off the mainline via the CLC spur south of Wallerscote sidings.

It would be brilliant if these could be used rather than simple A - B freight, the above would provide some great freight moves and shunting.

 

The black 5's had a slightly different boiler and a smaller firebox, and the two cylinders, although they weren't that much larger each than each of the Jubilees three cylinders. The Jubilee had a power classification of 6 and were considered an express locomotive. Black 5's were often seen on express services too. I don't think it would be unfeasible for one to work a stopping train from Liverpool to Crewe, they were certainly used on such services elsewhere. They epitomised the term "maid of all work".

BMG do have the Stanier 5mt Mogul in their catalogue, that would be a useful loco to have and they were certainly based in the area.

 

I wouldn't have expected three, but hope some DLC won't be far behind.

As pointed out though they are starting from scratch with steam and modelling a route where express and locals ran alongside each other as well as freight means that something will likely be left out on initial release or some fudge will be made, i.e. a Jubilee and three mark 1's on a stopper service. If they had modelled the S & D for example two loco's some carriages and wagons would have covered all bases, as in the original Rail Simulator release.

I was pondering earlier if they might include a green class 08 (or even a black one numbered in the 13xxx series), they have the model in the game and unlike some of the mainline diesels it wouldn't have changed much from 1958 to 2018. It could be used as yard pilots, work trip freights and possibly Liverpool Lime Street station pilot, not sure if/when they were used as such.

 

Agree, including the Class 09 would be the perfect opportunity to bring it up to the standard of the Class 08. The WSR Version looks nice, but its a low joke compared to the cl.08 features. A loco upgrade is highly needed.

 

Was the only difference between the 08 and 09 gearing or something? I think the 09 had a slightly higher top speed. If so, and I don't know what I am talking about admittedly but could the "physics" just be amended to suit?

 

That's because the HUD isn't telling you what setting it's at, it's only telling you which direction you're spinning it. You have to use the in cab indicator to know what setting it's actually at.

 

I'm so glad that steam is almost arriving. This will definitely be in my wishlist, pre-purchase/day-one acquisition.
And can't help dreaming with a "Spaceship" in future DLC.

 

I do also hope there is some kind of mail train represented. For some reason mail and newspaper trains always catch my interest, it's just weird to think those trains were once among the most important express services on railway networks, without even carrying passengers!

 

Wasn't there Milk trains as well? Paper Trains got me out of many a tight spot but yeah, it would be great to see them in game.

 

You would hope they are represented. They were a fundamental part of the railway scene up until the last 20 years.

There is a lot of scope for DTG to recreate a really immersive long lost experience, I am very much looking forward to it. I hope they rise to the challenge.

 

Visit to Edge Hill depot in spring 1968. The only steam left at the depot by this point were Black Fives and 8Fs. Also towards the end of the video covers some of route that was shown in the reveal stream and how it has changed.

 

And how people like myself, who never ever drove a steam loco will learn to handle these beasts realistically? Dovetail Manuals are not accurate enough to fully cover the handling of a more complex loco (e.g. US freight just to name one) , let alone those ridiculous learning scenarios. I am not going to master the driving of a steam loco with useful suggestions like "you will be spending a lot of time in this seat" and " coasting is an effective method...." etc.etc.

 

Brave of you to assume that there’ll be a manual.

 

This was the problem I found with the Bossman 8F in TS. The manual didn’t really make it clear that the standard HUD is effectively redundant and you need to watch what’s happening in the cab. Cue huge workload trying to manage the loco from the full in cab view (which I found very dark and hard to see anything) trying to see signals through the tiny window which makes the Electrostar cab view seem panoramic in comparison! Traditionally in the sims you tend to drive using the head out view and rely on the HUD to monitor what you’re doing with the controls and levels. DTG need to recognise this and not go hardcore Bossman on the experience.

 

I am sure there will be tutorial videos on youtube. If you use automatic fireman it isn't hard to get to know the basics. Mainly just the brakes and regulator, the hardest thing to get used to is using the reverser and balancing it with the regulator, each locomotive is different. Managing steam pressure is the other important thing, all this can be done with trial and error and you can have a lot of fun trying. Other than that if using automatic fireman there is only really the dampers and cylinder drain thingies (insert perfectly innocent word which is now cencored in this apparently enlightened society we now live in)!

Matt may make some tutorial videos, I am certain I have seen them from him on youtube for TS1 steam locomotives. There are certainly tutorials on youtube for driving steam locomotives in TS1 and I cannot see them being much different than in TSW, some of the TS1 locomotives are very advanced.

It might be worth taking a look at what is on youtube.

 

2 ways are possible.

1. Go with tsw and make learning by doing. With the 8f or jubilee are both not easy for somebody never drove steam locomotives.

2. Get yourself the 3f jinty for ts and start with a small advanced steam loco.

I recommend second, its still a while until spirit of steam comes, so plenty of time to get used to how it works.

 

Why are we all assuming TSW's simulation will be advanced amd comparable to TS's Pro range addons?
I fear it's just wishful thinking, especially considering the console crowd and the different approach to trains between TS and TSW. I believe TSW's steam will be heavily leaning on the arcade side to please it's type of users.
We can already see some people afraid of steam and it's not even out yet. Hard to believe it will be as advanced as we hope...

 

Physic behaviour in ts was a giant effort. Its also a giant effort in tsw. So the loco works anyway with values from the simmugraph.

Probably it would be more effort to create a basic operated loco out of the advanced simmugraph than just feeding the values with the players inputs.

My guess is you can do everything by your self, or use the auto heater, which represents the "simple mode"

 

Arcade or not arcade, this is not the question. Even if it is arcadish, there are going to be tons of switches and all different kind of contraptions which may not be effecting the phisics in the gameplay but I want to know what it is for, and I am maybe mad but I do turn the things on/off as they should work in real life even if they don't do anything in the gameplay. So the question is (was) how I will get this knowlage. Now I know: youtube, TS and this forum.

 

Learning by doing is still the best way, nomatter on ts / tsw.

When you forget your waterlevel you can reload. Next time you wont forget. Ironicly i have to think about the suggestion of the hardcore mode in the topic of the score system, which gives penalty for mistakes.
Below another profile reset

 

My favorite workplace saying: “Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.”

 

Yeah if you run out of water and things get explosive you will have issues hiding it from the boss

 

It looks like Cthulhu is escaping the boiler .

 

You could try telling the boss that you simply lost the boiler along the way.
Oh, nevermind, here it is:


Ok, in all seriousness. This is what was left of the loco:

You can imagine what incredible forces must have been in play here. Sadly, 9 people lost their lives (including the engineer and the fireman) while 45 more were injured since this happened in a station (Bitterfeld in fact - yes the one from Rapid Transit). You can read more about it here, which is also my source for the pictures.

 

I agree with the comments about 8F and Jubilee spam would spoil the route to an extent, as cracking as those locomotives are and as exciting as they arrival of steam is.

An easy solution would be:

8F (freight)
Jubilee (express passenger)
08 (shunting, short freight work) could be in either BR Black or Green
101 (local passenger work) in BR Green. I don't know how prototypical it would be, but it's the quickest and nearest solution already in-game that avoids Jube's looking totally out of place.

If they released the above, I think the route would be well-received and they could charge a decent price for it and people would still buy. If not prototypical the 101 could be switched out in the future when something more appropriate is released.

I'm very much looking forward to this route, and I hope it's not spoilt by Jubilee spam- they are my favourite steam locomotive but to see a ridiculous amount of them would affect my enjoyment of the route and make me hesitate to purchase.

 

Or not include any stopping services at all (which I suspect will happen) then have a loco DLC sometime later adding these in. Something like a standard 2MT with Mk1 suburban or ex-LMS stock would be ideal.

 

The class 101 wouldn't be prototypical although Crewe South had a few for a while but I don't think they worked the Liverpool services although they could have I guess. Allerton class 108's would have been more likely I would have thought, if indeed DMU's ever ran those services.

The class 101 would need more than a repaint, it needs to be put back into its pre refurbished form, original coloured seat cushions, original lighting replacing the florescent lighting.

 

I read the story about the bitterfeld "steam" explosion. Heryesa, thats a bold one. they were out of water 2 times actually. The driver lied about refilling with water just to save time to keep up the timetable. When braking at bitterfeld the remaining water flushed forward at the overheated metal and caused the explosion.

Here a Link of an interview with the man, who investigated the accident back then: Language German

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SM6u_tUSro

Zitat: Der Fahrer ist einfach drauf los geschrotet, ob mit oder ohne Wasser, interessierte ihn nicht . (The driver rushed away, didnt care with or without water.)

 

This would be a better idea than adding diesels to the route. It would allow DTG to add an extra steam locomotive to the TSW roster rather than reuse stock we already have.

 

How long do you want to wait and how much are you willing to pay?

The most recent loco DLC from DTG, the Class 313, was released in late October 2021- nearly two years after its home route, East Coastway.

 

To be fair, the melting plug on 01 1516 failed, likely due to neglected maintenance (when she had just returned from a major inspection a few days prior!), and the crew was under extreme pressure to make up for lost time. It's not my place to cast blame in any direction and the driver is definitely largely at fault, but I'd say there were other (external) contributing factors as well.

 

True with the plug. I wasnt there, but according to this investigator the driver was unexperienced.

 

That's just one of the more extreme examples... The 465/9 on the other hand, came out not long after after South Eastern Highspeed. There's no predictable pattern to loco DLC releases.

Anyway I'm not expecting DTG to do a loco DLC for the route right away, although I'd certainly be very happy if they did follow up the route with one! I'm just saying I'd rather see new steam locomotives added to the game for those potential commuter and shunting services, I'd prefer the first steam route to consist only of steam traction rather than layering in any diesels.

 

Saying that DTG always do the numbers game and go with the more popular way of doing things rather than the more accurate way. Don't you think DTG will be thinking of all the Diesel fans (even Electric) that did not buy the steam only route but would if there was a Diesel on it? I would say DTG would be missing a trick if they did not do this.

 

LMS 'Little and Often' firing instruction video on a Black Five.

I believe British Railways regarded 4000 lb of coal an hour as the maximum rate for sustained hand firing by a single fireman, which meant larger locomotives with larger fireboxes, like the Coronation class (50 sq ft), required two (or more!) firemen in order to provide a sufficient firing rate to attain maximum power. This is the case for LMS 6234 Duchess of Abercorn when it sustained 3300 hp - it had two firemen working flat out. For even higher sustained firing rates a mechanical stoker was a necessity - and that is what would have appeared on the LMS 'Improved Coronation' design, a even larger 4-6-4 of 70 sq ft firebox and wider boiler that would of almost certainly been built had it not been for the outbreak of World War 2.

Also, I was pleased to see that the Simugraph screenshots from the stream clearly showed the boiler size being taken in account - the firebox size, the amount of firebox (direct) heating surface, the tubes / flues (indirect) heating surface and superheater surface, as that's necessary in order to acquire an estimate of the evaporative capacity of a boiler (in lbs/hr usually), a vital performance parameter. The Jubilee boiler with its slightly larger firebox should produce slightly more steam than the 8F boiler and this looks as if it's represented that way in the sim. I hope that the boiler steam production figure is visible in some way as it was in TS1.

 

I'm with you on this. We need something like the F5 menu in TS Classic.

 

Better to have a separate timetable with diesel layers to keep us all happy, or follow on with something like a BR Green diesels pack.