Train Sim World 2 - Roadmap Update 25/01/2022

There is no indication that the rate of DLC release has changed any from the start of TSW: 6 routes per year, plus a couple of locos or "gameplay packs." If anything, the frequency of loco DLCs has dropped off quite a bit from 2019, when there was a huge tranche of old British diesels released.

However, I agree with the matter of overwork- both with regard to QA, and the fact that Adam's PC now have three jobs: updating old routes to include modern features AND repairing any and all bugs (since the Core Team have apparently washed their hands of it) AND, now, 'advising' Rivet and Skyhook on how to make their products non-rubbish.

 

Been waiting to play the updated Oakville sub and San Francisco for a while now. Any ideas on that?

 

Don’t forget making stuff for DLC expansion packs and all the Mastery rewards.

 

I thought the same until someone pointed out something to me - despite the small size of Adam’s team, just look at the amount of stuff which is waiting to be released. I think the team will be able to handle it. It’s the testing which needs serious attention to it, which is delaying everything.

 

I probably should have missed out the "more". The point I meant to make was that DLC is where DTG makes its money and that non-imcome generating DLC would definitely be the last choice for QA time.

 

My post was an attempt to explain the background to why QA is struggling for those who may not be aware how TSW platforms have mushroomed since TSW's launch around three years ago. In a perfect world and without the issues that a virus caused management might have recognised what was happening and taken steps to forestall this issue happening. We don't live in a perfect world, the virus turned up and we are where we are with a QA bottleneck which I suspect is unlikely to vanish anytime soon IMHO. I would be delighted to be proved wrong on that last point.

 

I think you are in danger of confusing real world to the Digital world. In the real world if you buy a product and say 100 people buy that product and say 5 people publish a fault with that product then it is easier to stop people buying said product and the company goes bust or remedies the situation. In the Digital world if 5 out of the 100 find a fault with that product companies like DTG will think 'it works for the other 95' so probably won't do anything about it.

And if you buy a faulty product in the real world and don't complain about it you're either a fool or so rich it doesn't matter . Even if you buy the same product elsewhere isn't it a courtesy to highlight the fault in so helping other people who might have the same fault but didn't realise? And you should know by now with software if no-one complains then nothing gets fixed only ignored or in the pres updates just not released. If there are only one or two people complaining on a forum they will get heard but if lots complain eventually they have to address it.

I think your view of 'fair' is flawed. You like real world analogies so here is one. Say you bought a product in the real world and it developed a fault and the manufacturers said it would take 1 month to fix then three weeks later they told you that it will now take another 6 months as someone who just bought the product had a more serious fault than you. That is OK is it? To me it is not, you should have priority because you have been waiting for longer. Used to be known as good service and good manners once upon a time....

 

Still no ICE T and Class 700 on the Roadmap is pretty annoying

 

At the same time I feel so sorry for adam's team, now having to handle, three stuff, which is putting too much pressure on the team. They have to expand the team, or the community would not be able to get what they wanted. The company really needs to step up the game and really needs to make changes that are equal and fair to the team as a whole. Have a separate QA Team, for each own franchise, instead of one big team doing everything. I really hope they would understand how much it affect their company and will make changes fair.

 

Now that the public can go back to work couldn't DTG invite people in to do testing?

 

What people? If you mean Joe Public it’s unlikely that would ever happen. Besides which everyone would need to sign an NDA.

 

I know they have pots of money but EA do just that, in fact they fly some members of the public in. Obviously DTG couldn't afford this but given that their excuse is a bottleneck in QA/testing I'm sure their would be plenty of volunteers prepared to give up a day or so to help DTG out and by doing it on site there is no danger of their software going walkies.

I do not see signing a NDA a problem if one is needed no? I've had to sign a couple in the past other people more.

 

Wake me up when the next stuff with TSG involvement is going to release ;-)

 

The ‘bottleneck’ as you describe is merely the fact they DTG want to and keep pushing out DLC too quickly! All that needs to happen is that they release new routes less frequently for a while and give Adam’s PC team time to catch up. This would benefit not only DTG but also ultimately end users.
As I see it now DTG are trying to spin too many plates at once and not very successfully at that! If I remember correctly Adam said that his team were involved in QA now…there’s an example of that plate spinning!
I too am a paying customer and frustrated at broken elements of the game but we should all remember this is just a game and not a matter of life and death!

 

I agree about the DLC releases but I can't see the bean counters at DTG changing their ways.

Adam's team have completed the 17 pres routes that need updating and are awaiting release for the past two months so the bottleneck is in testing and even though Adam's team are involved they are involved with third parties as well now, like you say 'plate spinning'

I wouldn't say it is a matter of life or death either but I would say it is frustrating. I just want the GWE, haven't played TSW2 in months. There are a few that want just the RD updates for the preservation Loco's (again has been done, awaiting release) no idea why they couldn't have been released by now.

 

As TSW is essentially a business, this will never happen. They won’t delay and/or stop DLC purely for the benefit of preservation updates. The issue lies in how DTG manages their QA process.

As an end user, I am not particularly interested in the way they handle their internal management, nor are their issues/limitations/problems our problem. All I care about, and probably many other players are, is a stable and well functioning game, with all routes having the same amount of features and staying up to date.

DTG, the ball is firmly in your court…

 

DTG are going to have to bite the bullet and let there be one mega download once in a while.
Folk on metered internet access as I was, will be sensible enough to have automatic downloads switched off to manage their update schedule themselves.
The mega update isn’t an unprecedented thing, when gen 9 consoles came out, all the folk upgrading to those versions had to do just that.

 

Pedant mode on; TSW is not a business it is a product from a business namely DTG. Their internal processes are a matter for their executive management team not us whether you are interested or not. Any business will look to mitigate any issues/limitations/problems - does anyone seriously think that a business wants to sell an inferior product?
I totally agree that none of their problems are the customers problem as you mentioned but at some point a line has to be drawn. Their problem with QA appears to lay in the fact that there aren’t or weren’t enough people doing that role. Moving resource from one area to another will inevitably impact all parts of the production process.
This is what I see happening….Pres Crew moved to QA…preservation route updates grinding to a halt or at best intermittent and people on this forum complaining that nothing is happening on that front!

We’ll get there in the end!

 

this train want 99% guarantee for Swiss route

 

I don't know where some people get the idea that fixing bugs, making improvements to dlc and QA testing are non revenue activities. Those processes are part and parcel of the production process and all contribute to making the product better and more desirable, thereby increasing sales, especially among those new to the hobby. Everything that a company does when producing a product for sale is all part of the revenue producing stream. So those activities are just as important as writing code. It's not only new dlc that sell, older routes and locos are still for sale and improving and fixing them contribute to profits.

 

While that's true, it's awfully hard to turn that into a number that fits in a spreadsheet. Whereas anticipated revenue from a new DLC can be.

 

Not confused. I don't see a difference. If enough people online complain in the spaces where people go to look for reviews then it's "buyers beware", which is the same in the bricks and mortar world

 

Is it 100% sure that this is the loco of the new TSW2 Swiss route? (Would be very nice.)

 

Rivet said at Instagram that the model is from Train Simulator.

 

I wonder if potential TSW2 players who fancy some of the older routes rather than the new ones would think 'I will wait for the updates' . Would DTG take that as lost revenue?

 

I'm thinking 'I will wait for a bigger sale discount' for some of the routes. Although I like the concept of West Cornwall and Cane Creek, reviews about numerous bugs and low quality make me very cautious buying these add-ons. Perhaps some bugfixing would tempt me to buy these add-ons at a higher price tag.

 

In concept, yes- but it's almost impossible to attach a number to that.

 

I can accept that but as a business surely you have to take that into account no? I'm no businessman but shouldn't potential lost sales be part of the calculations even if it is estimated? Or perhaps DTG think it is a loss releasing pres updates and would rather churn out new DLC?

 

Oh no, I'm sure most companies incorporate all kinds of overhead and variable costs into their Cost of Goods Sold spreadsheets, and fix prices, budgets and revenue estimates accordingly.

 

I agree with you dude it is disappointing and ridiculous they want instead of fixing stuff they want to go by a popularity contest so when they start losing money at won't be our problem. They aint listening to us they are doing whatever they feel like and leaving bugs in the game that are preventing most of us from playing the content we have already . I wont buy anymore stuff till DTG get off their lazy British rears and fix whats already wrong and has been for years

 

To any dovetail employee that wishes to read this: Dovetail games need to get their heads together and in one spot and come to the senses that you guys need to launch the bug fixes before you start worrying about making new content and before you even think about launching another content release you guys need to crack down and get the bugs fixed and stop with this popularity stuff that's dividing your community in half. . Now let's see how smart DTG is or if your going to keep going down your current path of destruction and the path of loosing players due to community division .

 

How can you quantify ‘potential’ lost sales against any possible delayed improvement of old DLC? It’s an impossible number to know and even an estimation would be very difficult. The simple fact is that upgrades to DLC only actually affect people who have already purchased them and any improvement isn’t going to generate any revenue from those players. Not a single penny. DTG can afford to take their time improving any single DLC as it isn’t likely to massively affect income one way or another in the short term. Selling new DLC does affect income immediately. Not selling new DLC will have the single biggest detrimental effect on their income overall both in the short and long term, so it is much higher on the priority scale. That’s why we are waiting so long for other work to be released.

 

You should realize that the people who fix bugs and the people who make new content aren't the same people; shutting down the one won't make the other move any faster.

You should also be aware that the current problem is not the bug fixes themselves - most have them have been done - but rather a bottleneck in testing which is delaying those fixes from being released.

Also: if DTG stops selling DLC, they can't pay their bills. Starting with staff pay- and the first staff to be laid off would be the ones who fix bugs.

 

With the exception of the Preservation Crew, if I understood things correctly...

 

Surely the fact that they have asked the question as to how we want to fixed delivered means they are trying to listen to us? And most of the bugs aren't preventing you from playing content, in most cases it isn't as enjoyable or immersive as it should be.

I don't know why you have to start getting personal and bringing nationality into it?!

Personally what ever way they decide to do it I wish they would start soon as I am not sure this debate is going to help despite the good intentions behind starting it.

 

Surely the fact that they have asked the question as to how we want to fixed delivered means they are trying to listen to us? And most of the bugs aren't preventing you from playing content, in most cases it isn't as enjoyable or immersive as it should be.

I don't know why you have to start getting personal and bringing nationality into it?!

Personally what ever way they decide to do it I wish they would start soon as I am not sure this debate is going to help despite the good intentions behind starting it.

 

For once I have to disagree with you - at least on that small highlighted part

Two not so very unreasonable scenarios came to my mind were this indeed could be the case: First, from personal experience, the missing upgrade can hinder a customer from buying a loco DLC for a preserved route. I admit that's not going to have a large impact on the revenue but it does exist - originally I had an eye on the MP15 for Pen Corridor because I really like that route - but wanted to wait for the upgrade to make it feel 'complete'. Now, nearly a year after the upgrade was first mentioned I severely doubt I'm going to make another purchase for it again as my time is limited and I don't think that in the meantime I'll play Pen Corridor in such an amount again that I'd consider purchasing the loco.
Second, there is still a market left for the preserved content. Many new players came along with TSW2 and some even haven't left yet - players, who don't own the TSW2020 bundle (and will not due to its withdrawal from sale). Those would have to pay full price for inferior routes to todays standard and it's more likely to buy something recently released with the whole featureset than spending the same amount for a product which offers a less appealing experience.

Which leads me to the conclusion that I find it very strange how it was possible to turn last years quite euphoric atmosphere into the current one.
I mean, I remember when the first roadmaps came out it was quite an event, the streams interesting and there was a time where I was looking forward to more than 10 roadmap items (new DLCs).
Now there's only one left for me (the 420), I personally haven't watched more than five minutes of any stream for months and DTG find themselves in a position with lots of criticism all over the place.
Despite delivering a really good experience with recent releases - well at least on PC and mostly Series X...

It reminds me a bit of Man United with Mourinho or Dortmund with nearly every manager after Klopp - results are there, yet it doesn't feel that way.
And from a customers point of view it feels very unneccessary in TSWs case.
Comparing to the efforts put in the game it feels like a minimum would be required in order to solve current issues- but honestly if they always are colourfully described as rocket science difficult it makes you wonder how on earth games can get developed at all or if they are not coincidentally found alien technology...

 

You are quite right, it will have a small effect on sales of related DLC and in my case I never bought the M3 for LIRR partly because the route itself hasn’t been fixed to a playable standard. However, for me it wouldn’t have been an extra purchase but just a factor in choosing something else to buy instead. Other issues like the current PS5 DLC limit has stopped me from buying any DLC for a while now, with the exception of Hamburg in the sale, and to other players just the quality of some routes will be enough to have the same result. I just don’t see how the addition of PIS system and some working crossing gates to NTP is going to increase sales of that route because it isn’t currently broken to a point of unplayability.

In the longer term sales of older DLC will increase if they are improved to a level closer to newer DLC in terms of features but it will never get close to what DTG will get from new DLC in the short term. A lot of dedicated players are quite resilient in their acceptance of having to wait a long time for improvements but I think a lot of people also abandon the game due to all the frustrations it comes with. Promises of improvements that don’t materialise will have an effect in that too, so the more DTG can improve overall will be good for them, but in terms of priorities for revenue putting more time into testing new DLC to make sure they come out in a better state initially may well make getting older DLC improved in a timely manner even more difficult. It’s the sales of new DLC that drive DTG and efforts to make them much more appealing is probably what has caused the backlog in QA. In a way they can’t really win, and we live with the frustrations for longer.

Increasing QA capacity like I and others have suggested does have a quantifiable cost to it and maybe DTG don’t feel it will be covered enough by the marginal increase in revenue from legacy DLC for the investment to be worthwhile just now. I think they will have to do it at some point because the game is progressing, new features are coming, and DTG are getting bigger every year.

 

Yes, the people who fix bugs may not be the same as the people who make new content but the people making the content are the ones who developed the bugged content in the first place so it should be easy to temporarily move them into the bug fixing team.

I agree that they should continue making new content, not only to keep the revenue stream up but to keep user interest up. There needs to be a balance though. If people expect new releases to have game breaking bugs (many of which are experienced on day one by users, which is a damning indictment on testing), this is only going to affect sales as people will wait and see how good it is before purchasing. I’m afraid I fall into this category now. I haven’t bought Dresden Chemnitz yet as, although it has generally good reviews, there have been problems with crashing identified on Xbox (which is the platform I use).

 

Well, let’s see, TSClassic has well over a decade of being on the market and is still kicking, go over the the MSFS 2020 forums and you will read the same comments about fixing bugs and releasing new features as in this forum with the same predictions of doom, the same vows of voting with their wallets, the amazing amounts of armchair MBAs and software engineers that know how to do everything better than the current company,. To be quite honest, it all gets to be reparative and frankly a bit of a bore.

 

It wouldn't be a permanent stop selling the DLC it would be temporary . They could even reach out to their player base I bet some of the people here would be more than willing to help test bug fixes I know I would in a hurry .

 

Speaking of Dresden-Chemnitz, I bought the route a few days ago for my series X. I had a $10 Xbox gift card that a friend gave me a while back so I ended up spending $16.99 on it which is a steal. Ironically I had no crashes on the route and I played it for 5-6 hours doing RE3 and S3 services The crashes seem to happen on Series S and 8th Gen console it seems from what I found. I was gonna refund the route when I heard about crashes on next gen but since I didn't have issues, I didn't refund it. I enjoyed the route to be honest.

But honestly I wonder how dtg does testing on 8th gen consoles. They say they test items but then how in the world is 8th gen and Xbox Series S users getting memory crashes. It makes no sense because that is a game breaking issue. I thought DTG would never release a product if there was a game breaking issue.

Honestly i feel like 8th gen and 9th gen players should probably take the statement that dtg test things with a grain of salt and don't buy dlc's on day one like I did with this route. If dtg tests dlc's then there shouldn't be memory crashes on these routes which again raises the question on how they test their product because their has to be a problem on how they test if memory crashes aren't popping up on their end and yet when customers get their hand on the route, memory crashes happen. Or perhaps they do happen but they release the route anyway just to get initial profits

 

The thing is DTG usually develops a route dlc's in 6 to 9 months so right now there could be a dlc in development that we don't know about. They can't stop making routes or loco dlc's because that's how they make money. That's the business model dtg put in this game. DLC's make money since DTG don't release a yearly game. If they don't release dlc's or stop production of dlc's then they won't make money even if it's temporary.

What would be better is if dtg can get it right the first time so routes won't be released with issues that are so bad or even game breaking such as memory crashes and leave it to the Preservation Crew to fix and release a year later

 

While that is usually true, it isn’t at the moment. DTG decide on a annual basis what the coming year’s (April-March) DLC are going to be. Those discussions are happening right now and the choices have yet to be made, so right now the routes in production are Harlem and Liverpool, the last of the 2021-22 set. Another half dozen or so will be selected soon. (Also, DTG only have the staff to have two routes in production concurrently. It was just one at a time; Sherman Hill and Chemnitz were the first routes developed in tandem)

NB: “Production” of course is a slippery term. It probably doesn’t include research, and may not include concept art and preliminary asset building, stuff the film business would call “pre-production”

 

Don't know what proof you have on this, but it's my understanding there's multiple teams which can (and do) work on multiple routes so even if two are the main focus other people can develop things alongside. The Pres crew jumped on some of the RH work for example (three routes being worked on at the same time)

 

AIUI, the RH routes were developed sequentially. It was Matt who said in a recent stream that SHH and DCZ were the first time they were able to have two routes in production at the same time.

That doesn't of course preclude Adam's people being pulled off their regular jobs to help out, or for that matter bringing in second-party contractors like Rivet, Skyhook or TSG

 

Fixed that for you...

 

Be nice. Rivet did a lot of the Cathcart scenery and it's very good.

 

Maybe I'm not the one to speak, and I don't want to turn this personal or derail the thread, but I have to say, so does the constant "whining about the whiners" here and on Steam forums. I just find it a bit ironic.

 

It constantly amazes me how much " insider knowledge " some people have about the inner workings of DTG, even though they don't work for the company. You really don't have any more idea of what's going on in Chatham than any of us. Am I right?

I have no problem with speculation, but you need to label it as such.