Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

They might do that, they might not. Service mode details are yet to be seen. It'd be better if they do a future pack similar to the Diesel Legends one during the steam/diesel crossover that includes some BR green diesels and a separate timetable. I've seen a few comments around the forum since this route's announcement about how diesel/electric fans will have nothing new to drive but using the same logic, steam fans have had nothing at all until now. It would be 100% fine if this release remains steam only, these beautiful, breathing beasts of machines deserve to have their time in the TSW spotlight.

Hopefully DTG will drip feed some more information to us about service mode soon.

 

They got a nice year with 1958, since diesels like the cl.20 were still in testing. DTG can create a mixed traction timetable for 1960 or 62 as a gameplay dlc, there were changes on the route for sure, probably on the signalling etc, but i think even if we have to drive the 58s route with the diesel timetable, it would still be believable (compared to diesel legends )

 

I like that plan, if diesels are an option then they'd be in a different timetable option. I don't want to see diesels when driving steam, but I'd be interested in driving diesel on the route.

 

Of the trains we have in game, only the Class 20 (didn't run in the area anyway), Class 31 (albeit a completely different version), Class 101 (mentioned up-thread) and Class 08 were in service. Realistically, of that list, you could only really get away with a simple repaint on the 08, so unless something completely new is being built (such as a Class 24 or 28), anything diesel would have to be on a separate timetable.

 

And by "completely different version" of the 31, I really mean it - to the point the early ones built in 1957/58 were withdrawn early because they were non-standard.

 

Technically even the class 08 would need to be vacuum only. Im interested how dtg is gonna solve this. Really hope they take the effort to make it accurate.
We could have a second loco dlc, called "EE Type 1 - D8000+" dlc in br green livery.

 

Isn't that just the first Class 20? Is there anything (aside from it being the first) special about it?

Even so, I think a lot of people would be rubbed the wrong way if they released a BR Green 20 as a separate DLC particularly when we already have one with discs, although like I said above, they didn't run in the area at the time.

 

As much as I love diesels I think if we get any I would rather have a separate timetable layer so we can have an all steam timetable. As said in a previous post, this is the first steam route and there are other routes for classic diesel enthusiasts. One exception could be LMS Ivatt diesel numbers 10000 and 10001. Of which I believe a replica is being built.

 

Yeah, I think twin timetables, one steam, one mixed would be a nice way to go

 

10000 and 10001 would be awesome, though would probably end up aliased to the 37 or 40 for sound - I doubt any recordings of the real thing or folks who remember them are still about.

 

Yes likely. Isn't the replica being built around a class 37?

 

A 1958 timetable for steam traction and then something like (for instance) a 1960 mixed traction timetable would be brilliant.

Also, I've just noticed that the grand old Duke of Gloucester 8P was stationed at Crewe as far as I can tell in 1958... DLC anyone?

EDIT: In fact rolled off the production line at Crewe in that very year, so it would be in gleaming ex-works condition unlike most of the other traction?

EDIT 2: Perhaps not - appears to have undergone some reworks at Crewe in '58 (originally constructed there in '54) and hence is referred to as ex-works in my reference.

 

Yes the D8000 was just the first one, but the cl.20 wasnt the only type 1 loco, so they would need to name it somehow. There are many ways possible to create the br green diesels accurate. One new loco dlc for a vacuum br green cl 20 is probably too much, but i can immagine they could convert and sell 3 locos in each pack:

BR Diesels Pre Tops Dlc Pack 1:
- Cl.08 PreTops - D3000 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition
- Cl.09 PreTops - D3665 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition
- Cl.20 PreTops - EE Type 1 - D8000 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition



BR Diesels Pre Tops Dlc Pack 2:
- Cl.31 PreTops - EE Type 2 - D5520 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition + Steam Train Heating
- Cl.33 PreTops - EE Type 3 - D6500 onwards in BR Green, Dual Braked Edition + Electric Train Heating (Reskin only)
- Cl.37 PreTops - EE Type 3 - D6700 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition + Steam Train Heating


BR Diesels Pre Tops Dlc Pack 3:
- Cl.40 PreTops - EE Type 4 - D200 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition + Steam Train Heating
- Cl.45 PreTops - EE Type 4 - D11 onwards in BR Green, Dual Braked Edition + Steam Train Heating
- Cl.47 PreTops - EE Type 4 - D1500 onwards in BR Green, Vacuum Braked Edition + Steam Train Heating


There are many "payware" ways to get this right with era accurate models, a lazy approach with including the existing dual braked locos would not be an option for me to buy any of that content.

 

Um, I’m looking forward to the steam engines myself.

 

This is essentially my stance right now, whilst I wouldn’t mind seeing a steam engine or 2 on a tour or in a preservation setting, or even as an included loco, but I have no interest in driving them, let alone buying a DLC solely consisting of them (not that I’m saying such DLC shouldn’t exist).

Liverpool - Crewe is exactly the type of route I’d go for, and unfortunately my nightmare that is a route releasing in an era I do not wish to play in, has come true, however if the DLC came with timetabled diesel services, I’d be all over it. If it doesn’t I’ll have to wait until it’s on a decent sale and use it in scenario planner.

 

Totally get where you're coming from. It's like how I'm hoping for a WCML Over Shap route set in the 80's so that we can get the APT-P Class 370 and a Class 86, if that ever comes out modern day with the Pendolino instead, I'm going to the one be disappointed. Not that I dislike Pendolinos but they're not a patch on the 370 in my own opinion. At the end of the day, DTG have a lot of ground to cover in terms of routes and the era they're set in and someone somewhere will end up disappointed regardless.

I do wonder if remaking routes in another era may become a thing in the future? Or will it be more gameplay timetables along the lines of the Diesel Legends pack without changing the base route.

 

I wonder if third parties would be more likely to re-do routes in another era.

Personally I’m ok with anywhere between 1970 - Present day for routes, although my favourite era is the BR privatisation phase, I also wouldn’t mind steam - diesel transition period either, but yeah it is kind of luck of the draw with when a route is set.

On the subject of the 390, I wouldn’t be overly joyed about seeing it either, the cab is very quiet IRL, and DTG’s quiet cab set-ups leave a lot to be desired.

 

I think we’re getting a bit far from my original idea, which is what DTG could include in the route AT LAUNCH to make the traffic a bit more varied than just the two steam engines. While there are precisely zero engines extant that would be entirely correct for the area in 1958, the green 09 is at least ‘close enough’ (pretend it’s an 8). The others either didn’t exist yet, are blue, or have blatantly later features like headcode boxes.

 

I could feel the same way as you. This is my home route and I’m not really interested in driving steam locos. I’ll be all over this route on release though as I will be driving all kinds of trains on it and I’ll enjoy watching the steamers even if I don’t ever excel at driving them. I’m going to treat it as a challenge and am getting more excited about its arrival after living with the knowledge that it isn’t exactly what I wanted from a Liverpool-Crewe route for a while now. It’s still Liverpool-Crewe and that’s what matters. If there are diesels included or as DLC then that would make me even happier but I’ll take what I get with it.

 

At launch a BR Green or Black Class 08 wouldn't go a miss, simply to provide a shunting/pilot locomotive if such is needed. Then later provide a BR Green diesels pack with something new or with reuse of appropriate existing stock, within a separate timetable.

 

Absolutely. I'll be quite happy with the two steam locos on release. Yes having a Jubilee haul three or four Mark Ones on the locals might be a bit of a fudge, but not as much as a quick and possibly inaccurate port over of our existing diesel classes. I'm sure the additional DLC layers will arrive quickly enough following release of the main product.

 

Query for the RR historians: what locos did haul local stopping services on the LNER/NE Region in 1958?

 

Probably a large tank engine such as the V1, V3 or A5/6/7/8, or a small(ish) tender engine, like the K1. Branch lines would be a smaller tank engine like the J72.
Really depends on the route.

 

I'm not denying that steam shouldn't have their 'day in the spotlight' I'm thinking of how to make the route as popular as it can be whilst remaining true to the era.

At this time the majority of trains were steam no doubt about it but there were diesels as well. The route will be released with two steam engines which is great for the steam fans. There are players on the forum not interested in steam but are interested in the route and there are players (me included) that are interested in steam but not that fussed to drive one. What better way to pull more players in than by releasing a diesel DLC? An 08 etc, perfect for shunting the carriages for the steam engines and get people to try steam making the route popular paving the way for more steam to be released, I see it as a 'win, win'.

Did this route have slip coaches and/or Autocars? Love to see them in game.

 

Any DMUs or 1st-gen diesel locos?

 

Forgot 101s were in service by '58 (I actually had my head in the mid-50s when answering). They were already in service on the Tees Valley Line, Tyne Valley Line, Durham Coast Line and Newcastle - Leeds (which apparently had a buffet car, dunno how that worked), and were being rolled out to the local/commuter routes out of Newcastle.

Didn't really get diesel locos until the 60s (although some 40s arrived to Gateshead in 1959; possibly for the trans-pennine route), before then it was basically only shunters that were diesel.

There were, of course, the Tyneside Electrics at that time.

 

Well if anyone has £30 to spare, SIAM have a Windows Traffic Control for Liverpool 1958...
http://www.siam.co.uk/conc5/index.php/products/winnew/winsteam/
*Liverpool Lime Street 1958 - Back to steam days at this busy terminus on two main routes, with local and long-distance passenger and parcels services. This one has a single track screen, though of the larger size possible with Windows, covering the station and approaches. Turning and watering of engines can be done at Lime Street; for more than this engines must go to Edge Hill. At this time stock for most long-distance services was cleaned at Downhill Sidings, not in the station, so there are many empty stock workings, and also light engines to and from Edge Hill. Schedules are provided for weekday, Saturday and Sunday; the rush hour is quite a challenge! (Difficulty ###) Price £30"

Coincidence or what!

 

I think there were still some G5 0-4-4T's around in 1958, I wouldn't imagine J72 would have worked many branch line passenger services but I guess they might have. There were quite a few BR standards on the North East in the late 1950's especially the 2-6-0 class 2MT and 3MT.

My 1958-59 BR NE passenger timetable shows mostly DMU's on the lines west of Darlington. It proudly shows diesel trains on the Darlington, Barnard Castle, Middleton in Teesdale, Penrith route. The Richmond branch still seemed to be steam.

 

The Class 08//09 would be a really lame choice, there's already four routes it's available in, if you want to try out a 08 most players probably already own those routes. Also consider how few services the 08 receives in any pack it's featured in, grabbing a steam route just to get access to five services you can complete within a hour isn't gonna be compelling if all you're interested in is diesel ops.

 

Found this lurking on Geograph…

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2737863

There’s a few more too if you study the links on the LHS of the page. One thing that is immediately apparent is universal bullhead rail everywhere, as I indicated several pages back flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers will be plain wrong for this route. One of the other images shows a Euston express hauled by a Princess, not a Jubilee. Also interesting only 4 or 5 coaches, presumably a portion split at Crewe.

 

Thing is, it's entirely possible the 08 will have a lot to do on this route - it's before 'trainload' freight became the standard and everything was 'wagonload'. That should mean plenty of shunting and pick-up/drop-off freight services. In the later routes, like NTP and TVL, Trainload is standard so there's very little for the shunters to do (indeed most 08s were redundent within 10 years of being built, and some classes of shunter were withdrawn even just a few years after being built, such as the Class 14 which had a service life with BR of just 3-6 years, although most were sold off to private industry)

 

There would be a lot of possibilities for a class 08, station pilot duties for one, although I am not sure in reality in this period a class 08 would be used for this purpose, both Crewe and Liverpool would have had statin pilots. There could be local trip freights between yards, marshalling postal trains, empty coaching stock workings possibly, marshalling carriages in carriage sidings. There is a lot of scope if the imagination is there.

 

Does anyone know if named expresses had nameplates on the smokebox door from this time? Is this something we could see included?

 

But would that scope make sense for what would likely be a freebie engine? I don't see DTG doing a entire dedicated Class 08 DLC when they've already done it previously, nor do I think it would be popular. And while they could do a NTP Heavy Freight style pack and include it with something else I'd question how many services they'd be willing to do if they had a second loco they also had to do services for, and would likely be the bigger draw.

 

I think they did but I don't think Jubilees hauled them, so we probably won't see them.

 

Well that depends on them and how much they want to make the route an immersive experience.

Personally I don't expect anything extra on release, more than the two loco's, the freight wagans and probably a paltry selection of mark 1's. Which is to be expected with a first steam release.

But in the steam days the railways were a hive of activity and shunting was very much part of that, I would hope over time extra add-ons will go someway to reflecting that. I don't think they would make a green/black class 08 add-on, but I would purchase it if they did, depending on its content if I thought it would add more life to the route, which it likely would do.

 

A black 08 would look smashing and would surely be fairly minimal work to include. Frankly I'd be happy with a reskinned NTP/TVL 08.

I'd imagine they'd do the pilot workings for Lime Street as well as yard shunting for the 8F heavy freight.

 

My argument isn't whether they should or shouldn't do shunting activities, indeed there's a lot of potential there. But why would DTG rehash the Class 08 for that when you could instead make a dedicated steam shunter like a Jinty instead? After all this is a Spirit of Steam route, and the people buying it are gonna be buying it squarely for the steam content. Hell, even if they made addon diesel locos there's a lot of early diesel shunters that DTG haven't made, and I'm sure at least one or two of them served the area at one point. For example the LMS had a bunch of early diesel shunters, why not make one of those for a loco addon instead? Would fit quite nicely with all the LMS steam that's being included on the route.

 

If it's a paid DLC, then, yes, an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 tank engine is the way to go. I was trying to think of something which could be included with the route at launch, which means something that already exists

 

Yeah, at this stage there's no way they're going to develop yet another locomotive. They're already doing 2 and a few types of wagon, which is more than what they normally do.

 

I would love to see a Jinty used, I would prefer it if any diesel loco's were in a separate combined timetable, but a class 08 is a perfectly acceptable option as stated above it would be a useful extra loco to add in the initial release to give that bit more realism and extra "game play".

In fact it was the LMS who in the 1930's developed the shunters which the class 08 were based on. I suggested a class 11 shunter in an earlier post which was a direct descendent of the LMS shunters and of which the class 08 is a descendent.

 

Disagree, I'd love an 08 if it had plenty to do like in reality and there were other Diesels but not sure on the actual route. The 08 fits in perfectly as well but you seemed to miss my point as it would be a way of people that are not necessarily into steam but if this route had an 08 for example it might tempt them to try it and then try steam. I'm sure they will be future steam DLC. Surely the more inclusive the route is the better no? If it fits with reality of course.

 

Well in 1958 diesels would have been still very much in the minority. DMU's were just arriving in the area and apart from shunters most diesel classes would have been been small in number as they were still trialling the pilot scheme prototypes. You might just sneak a class 40 into the era that might be about it, not sure if class 20's operated on the LMR at the time. Apart from that the two LMS Ivatt diesels could feature.

I don't personally see why diesels have to be included as you can argue that for five years steam enthusiasts have been excluded from the franchise. I love classic diesels but for me the best compromise would be to have any diesels on a separate timetable.

.

 

Yeah, I can see that. My intention was to get more people to take up route if they are not sure about a Steam only one.


What is this one? And would it be viable? The photo is Crewe 1958

 

Yes there were three of those designed by Bullied for the Southern railway but ended up on the LMR in the 1950's. They could be an interesting item of DLC. But they wouldn't have been a common sight, whether they ever worked Liverpool turns I don't know.

I would be interested to see some period diesel DLC but just think it would be better on a separate "transition" timetable, although a shunter would be an exception for me. Personally, I would want to see one or two items of steam DLC first, unless of course they do add an 08 into the original pack.

 

I don't get this, any diesel DLC locos that are done for the route surely would be stuff that would've been in service at the same time as the included steam locos, thus there should be no need for a second timetable.

 

I was intially basing my thoughts about an extra timetable if they were adding any diesel layers or reliveried diesels into the base package.

But I would still like a diesel/steam timetable for DLC as l would purchase any diesel DLC but there might be times I might want to run a session with just steam. I may well be in a small minority though.

The layering system whilst having many advantages is flawed as you can't select the layers you want. This is the problem with WCL if you have NTP then you have unrealistic layers, unless you uninstall NTP, whereas as if the layers were on a separate timetable it wouldn't be so much of an issue for those who don't want to see them.

 

At that time I believe the very few 40s (1st production April '58) were being trialed in East Anglia.

 

They were, but the Eastern Region (or at least the East Anglia bit) didn't like them, as they didn't offer much advantage over the steam locomotives they replaced when holding a high speed, but the LM Region snapped them up because many of their steamers were on their last legs, and there wasn't need for them to hold a high speed.

 

Yeah their first use was on express services on the GEML I believe. The GEML would be a perfect candidate for a transition period route I think with a wide range of traction available.