Can Someone Please Clarify I Am Not Going Mad (lirr Signalling)

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Feb 2, 2022.

  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I was just picking up LIRR for the first time in ages, left New York, heading towards Woodside. 2 questions if I may.

    1. Are there any speed boards anywhere?
    2. If no, is this in cab speed indicator working as coming into Woodside it went from 50-15mph and I saw nothing?
    3. Is there a different form of speed indicator I need to be vigilant for?

    America seems to be the least explained anywhere in terms of how the heck to survive it.
     
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  2. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    The ATC is just a buggy mess, don't worry.
     
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  3. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't sure if it was just me missing something .
     
  4. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    It’s not just you! There are no speed boards on LIRR or Boston, which goes against the logic of the advice given in the streams, which is to keep to whichever is the most restrictive, be it ATC or track speed. It makes driving without the hud impossible, and one has to wonder how it is done IRL - do ATC and ACSES in reality take into account track speed? That would explain the lack of speed boards. In any case they are a bit of a mess and are not even used in official streams. Shame, as they made a reasonable job of PZB.

    Also, why they have never implemented working TPWS on the more modern UK routes escapes me. So DTGs track record with safety systems is a little patchy, but fingers crossed they will make more effort for future routes.
     
  5. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    This is written with NEC: Boston in mind, since the safety systems in LIRR are almost completely dysfunctional.

    I definitely need to learn more about ACSES, but the main point is to check track speed

    "Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System"

    So ACSES = Track Speed. ATC = Signal speed

    If all signals are clear, ACSES will monitor the track speed, if you encounter a restrictive signal, the system which enforces the lowest speed takes priority. So if you encounter a signal that restrict you to 45mph but you are on a 30mph curve ACSES will still have priority.

    Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can talk about speed boards and track side signage, I'm afraid I can't help you for that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
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  6. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Nice, thank you. That could explain the “missing” speed boards. I will try a run on Boston tomorrow sans hud but with the safeties on.

    P.S. I realise that by doing so I will get pulled down to 30 mph at the merest sniff of a yellow 10 miles ahead lol.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
  7. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    And this is why LIRR Needs to be looked at by the team. I also experience this as well while driving on that route. I stop playing this route for a while because there are problems with the FPS, and signal as well, so I am going to wait until it is fixed before coming back to this route.
     
  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Go for it. ACSES and ATC are (IRL at least) really advanced system which (in TSW) really reduces almost to 0 the route learning needed to go HUD-less, it also takes into account train data so it won't give you a max speed higher than the train's max speed (so the Acela will go up to 150 while the ACS will go up to 125, the F40 up to 90) - when Boston released it would give the wrong max speed to the MBTA trains (I believe 100mph+) but I believe it has been fixed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    In real life the LIRR Hempstead and Ronkonkoma Branch lines do have speed limit signs across the route but unfortunately with a broken atc system, signal speed limits are just all over the place
     
  10. fevers

    fevers New Member

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    Im pretty sure LIRR doesn't have any Speed Boards IRL, thats why theres no speed boards in game. But i can be completely wrong on this. However, the ATC on LIRR is completely broken currently and surprisingly has not been fixed, even though its been broken since launch.
     
  11. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Wasn’t LIRR signalling supposed to have been looked at by the Preservation Crew?
     
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  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    DTG Natster are you able to shed any light on this please?

    Is ACSES broken and to be fixed?
    Will this form part of Matts upcoming US signal tutorial.

    Thank you
     
  13. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly I found Lirr disappointing and have only played it a couple of times,
    As to your sanity, that's harder to answer...
     
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  14. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    There are speed boards on LIRR. Not everywhere, but at some places. There are some even in game, but less than in real life. The route in TSW is also missing all whistle posts, even though in real life the route is full with them at crossings and bridge underpasses.

    So anyway on LIRR you're supposed to know the track speed limit from the speed boarda or from route knowledge where there aren't any.

    Of course the fact that even some track speed limits are incorrect don't help either...

    As for ACSES, it's not implemented on LIRR, but yes, ACSES would follow the track speed limits where needed, unlike ATC, which just shows a limit based on signals and ignores the actual track speed limit.
     
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  15. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I fear that box has a hole in it :D
     
  16. Jonne1184

    Jonne1184 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe to clarify a bit further, ACSES is not meant to replace knowledge of the track speeds. Basically you should already know where to slow down and do so, before ACSES will enforce you to do so.

    ATC on LIRR however is a mess. Even with the minimal traffic the route has, you are way too often forced to speeds significantly lower than the track speeds. At the same time speed for diverging tracks is not enforced even when there is absolutely no clue beforehand you will be routed onto another track.
     
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  17. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Well I tried a run to Boston this morning from Stoughton with safeties on.
    I got a sticky red signal at Canton Jn, had to contact the dispatcher to get past it. The train I originally let past was long gone, and several sections ahead.
    Further on I had another sticky red before Route 128, nothing in front of it and the signal after was yellow, go figure. It eventually cleared but delayed me for no reason.
    When I got routed into Boston South, ATC took over from ACSES and displayed 20 mph, I would have expected ACSES to display 10 mph which is the track limit. Something weird there.

    Anyway ATC and ACSES actually gave me less issues than sticky signals, but Dovetail should definitely give it another pass over with the signalling team.
     
  18. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    I think Matt has addressed this before. LIRR doesn't have ACSES. It only has ATC and it does not indicate speed limit. You would need to have route knowledge to actually keep speed limits in LIRR. Someone has already posted a full route map with speed limits in this forum, if you search for it, you will be able to find it. But if you go HUD-less but have ATC on, you will likely overspeed in many places.
     
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  19. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I think that's correct the way it is. The track speed limit is 10MPH, but that short section doesn't have ACSES so the ATC just shows 20.
     
  20. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense Dino, thanks.
    ACSES seems to have trouble with warning you to slow down in time for speed-restricted curves. It doesn’t warn you until you’re almost on it, so you don’t really have time to brake in a reasonable manner without tripping the safety braking. Even then you’re already well into the curve at excessive speed. It just doesn’t seem credible, so maybe there’s some work to do there also?
     
  21. Jonne1184

    Jonne1184 Well-Known Member

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    As I have already mentioned above, it is not supposed to do that.
     
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It would if it were correctly implemented in the sim, but it isn't
     
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  23. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I shall hang fire on any more time here then based on the above commentaries.
     
  24. Jonne1184

    Jonne1184 Well-Known Member

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    I will take the quote from Wikipedia here, which is again a quote from Amtrak.

    Again, ACSES is not there to give you sufficient information on upcoming speed restrictions, but to enforce them if you screw up. In this the current implementation is correct. There are however other unrelated problems on the Boston Sprinter with signaling which appear to be in the same category as on LIRR.
     
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  25. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, so why are there no speed boards on these routes? Even with route learning, a physical reminder of a speed reduction is surely a basic essential?
     
  26. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    That's what I wondered . I've seen the marker posts on Sherman and San Fran but never spotted on here. Unless they solely rely on knowledge and the in cab system in real life
     
  27. phaze#6129

    phaze#6129 New Member

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    I know this is an old thread but I'm currently a LE trainee for LIRR. Their are no speed restriction signs in most places and it's all based off knowledge. When you go for LIRR LE, you need to recite and write signal aspects their indications and definitions in verbatim word for word. You need to know the physical characteristics of each interlocking(location of crossovers, signals, switches etc) by heart and the maximum speed of each track. You need to be able to draw each interlocking on a sheet of paper by heart.

    After doing this I have respect for LE's and even conductors. LE'S have to learn this all in 14 months, AC's have 3 years to qualify. But you have to pass tests before you even get hired on that you don't get paid for. And you have to requalify and do all this stuff over every 3 years.
     
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