Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

Yeah, I can see that. My intention was to get more people to take up route if they are not sure about a Steam only one.


What is this one? And would it be viable? The photo is Crewe 1958

 

Yes there were three of those designed by Bullied for the Southern railway but ended up on the LMR in the 1950's. They could be an interesting item of DLC. But they wouldn't have been a common sight, whether they ever worked Liverpool turns I don't know.

I would be interested to see some period diesel DLC but just think it would be better on a separate "transition" timetable, although a shunter would be an exception for me. Personally, I would want to see one or two items of steam DLC first, unless of course they do add an 08 into the original pack.

 

I don't get this, any diesel DLC locos that are done for the route surely would be stuff that would've been in service at the same time as the included steam locos, thus there should be no need for a second timetable.

 

I was intially basing my thoughts about an extra timetable if they were adding any diesel layers or reliveried diesels into the base package.

But I would still like a diesel/steam timetable for DLC as l would purchase any diesel DLC but there might be times I might want to run a session with just steam. I may well be in a small minority though.

The layering system whilst having many advantages is flawed as you can't select the layers you want. This is the problem with WCL if you have NTP then you have unrealistic layers, unless you uninstall NTP, whereas as if the layers were on a separate timetable it wouldn't be so much of an issue for those who don't want to see them.

 

At that time I believe the very few 40s (1st production April '58) were being trialed in East Anglia.

 

They were, but the Eastern Region (or at least the East Anglia bit) didn't like them, as they didn't offer much advantage over the steam locomotives they replaced when holding a high speed, but the LM Region snapped them up because many of their steamers were on their last legs, and there wasn't need for them to hold a high speed.

 

Yeah their first use was on express services on the GEML I believe. The GEML would be a perfect candidate for a transition period route I think with a wide range of traction available.

 

Yeah 40’s on the WCML weren’t really a thing (if at all) until 1960.

The thing is that other timetables have in the past added at least an option to run a rarer train which has little to no chance of being spotted being ran by AI, DCZ & WCL making use of the Talent 2 & BR 101 as an example.

The only issue I see with doing the above on this DLC would be that there would need to be some not so little changes to the 08 & 40, so I don’t really see this happening.

I have mentioned not being interested in a steam only DLC, but I don’t think the 40 & 08 should be layered into the DLC as they are. As someone who’s most preferred era has only been replicated once in TSW (BR privatisation 90’s), and had that route spoiled by incorrect stock, I know only too well how much damage such decisions do to the immersion of a route.

 

To the 08 yes; but I think the green WSR 09 is close enough for what we're doing here. Not perfect- but a better match than running 422s on Köln-Aachen or wrong-door Dostos in Hamburg! The (disk-front) 40, besides a reskin of course, would also need the dual-brake system removed and (I believe) AWS as well. Whereas the green 09 is internally and externally period, since one really doesn't notice the slightly different gearing.

 

The LMS had its own diesel shunters (built 1939-42), externally quite similar to a class 08, but diesel-electric rather than diesel-mechanical. BR numbered them in the 12000 series and they survived until 1966/67, not quite long enough for TOPS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D3/7

 

True, but they did run from Crewe, in the early 1980s we used to go to Crewe from Liverpool to ride the 33s from there to Shrewsbury.

 

The Gronk was diesel-electric

 

Only latterly when something more reliable than the ragtag of Type 2's that featured on the services was needed, probably around 1983. That entailed putting the 33's on cyclic diagrams from Eastleigh with a mixture of Cardiff to Portsmouth and Cardiff to Crewe services plus a bit of West Wales work. You would not have seen a 33 at Crewe or Liverpool in 1958.

Someone is going to have to buy that SIAM game, put us all out the misery of the speculation as to what worked what around Liverpool in 1958! (And I suspect DTG probably already have as it must be the single most focused reference for train services in the area).

 

ALso because they didn't exist in 1958.

 

The cl09 in tsw2 is so what of basic in terms of features, that i refuse to spend any time in that loco. No fun at all. Until it gets the update, which it deserves, this one gets a strictly "ignore" (for static & a.i traffic might be an exception). Beside the gears there shoudnt really be differences between the 08 and the 09.

I can call the 08 a nice shunting experience, since somebody really paid attention to detail with it.

 

Good point. This is why DTG really can’t do much at all with the existing diesels for SOS. The 09 would be wrong as AFAIK these were allocated to the Southern when new. Basically we will need a light mixed traffic steam DLC fairly quickly to get some decent layers and variety on the route.

 

Keep in mind this route was planned to be in 1955 initially, any thing they've got planned for it was decided upon with that in mind. A 40 & 20 might debatably work in 1958, but with all the stock being planned with 1955 in mind they probably weren't planning the DLC or timetable with them in mind. Also with Bossman being attached I tend to think they're the ones who will handle the DLC locos here, not DTG. Considering they really only do steam locomotives that might make it even more unlikely we'll see any sort of diesel based DLC for this route.

Honestly I think if you want a mixed route you're best hope is to wait for them to build up a nice collection of steam era assets first. Then hope they make a route in the 60's which reuses the assets from those other routes to fill out the stock list, like what Nahverkehr Dresden & Tharandter Rampe did.

 

Given how poor Dovetail have been at producing manual documentation for their TSW2 releases, one hopes at least this route gets a proper manual.

 

Someone has done a few manuals, I forget his name, and to me they were really well done. DTG could make use of him.

 

And wouldn't exist for another two years in 1958. What I'm saying is that the game's 09 is close enough to an 08 to serve. Just pretend it's an 08; it's not like you can tell by looking at them.

I mean, if we really want to get that fussy, there has been no Gronk at Lovers Walk since 2016.

 

Watching back the livestream lets play Matt did this week and he's said no diesels at launch during his run through of cathcart circle,

Wonder how they'll implement shunting etc! Maybe an idea of future dlc isn't too far off?

 

I'm not the kind of person who needs a running commentary normally but it would be reassuring at this point for one of the Devs to pop their heads up and give us an idea of how they're planning to do shunting, local trains, piloting at Lime Street etc. - even if it's a compromise or they're planning on doing loco DLC followups.

Might help with not having any nasty surprises and setting our expectations in the right place!

 

Separate timetables are probably a lot of work (i.e. creating a new timetable). It would be really handy though to have some way to enable or disable layers.
This is pretty OT until diesels of about the same era are added, but yeah, I'd want to drive diesels on the route but to turn them off when I was driving something steam-based.

 

Point still stands DTG, what is going to happen with the shunting? Will it be done automatically by the AI?

 

Apropos of shunting, there's a heck of a lot of sidings on this route.
I do hope they will be well populated and not left empty like Hoo was initially.
Nothings worse than miles of shining track and no wagons to justify them.

 

I do agree as there has been a lot of speculation and we're not really sure what to expect.

Although hopefully they can give us something soon rather than the community coming up with all of these ideas

 

Why the hell would it be done by the AI? They're gonna have to use engines the player has to do shunting, there's no reason for them to be AI only.

 

Would any shunting that’s required just be done with the included locos we know of? Or would that be a complete no-no?

 

It'll probably be like GWE then, full route runs only, no shunting. No Idea if either one is a terminus station, but if so, that will require facilities to turn the loco around. This might be done without shuters: a train come to the platform. A second loco, already facing the correct way, connects at the back. The first loco, sandwiched between the buffer stops and its own carriages just disconnects and, after the train leaves, goes to the turntable and prepares to pick up the next train.

 

It wasn't generally done like that.

They would have had a station pilot for moving carriages and any parcels vans etc around the large stations. After the coaches have been taken away from the platform the engine would then be released and then would generally go somewhere to be watered, maybe coaled, possibly checked over, re-oiled etc. That could have been an area in the station environs, not sure if Lime Street had such an area, or a local shed, probably Edge Hill in this case.

Goods yards and the like would generally have a shunting engine, or maybe multiple engines. There might be some shunting done by the "train" engine in the case of goods trains.

 

I hope there's room for a shunter or some kind of mechanic at some point as the routes track layout looks incredible and it would be great to utilise that

 

I imagine engine turnarounds will be like how it's done in DLGW. Probably minimal yard shunting, too, and any shunting that IS done is done with the 8F.

Defo would help with a future DLC to add shunting and locals.

 

As spirit of steam’s selling point is the feeling of being there (from the first steam article), I hope dtg are not going to cheap out on the role of station pilot at least. It would be integral to authentic movements.

Perhaps we’ve not been shown all there is in the pack as yet? A long shot but obviously there was always going to be a need to make a lot of new stock for a first steam route so not impossible maybe.

 

Worth then repeating my quote from the SIAM game description a couple of pages ago:
"*Liverpool Lime Street 1958 - Back to steam days at this busy terminus on two main routes, with local and long-distance passenger and parcels services. This one has a single track screen, though of the larger size possible with Windows, covering the station and approaches. Turning and watering of engines can be done at Lime Street; for more than this engines must go to Edge Hill. At this time stock for most long-distance services was cleaned at Downhill Sidings, not in the station, so there are many empty stock workings, and also light engines to and from Edge Hill. Schedules are provided for weekday, Saturday and Sunday; the rush hour is quite a challenge! (Difficulty ###) Price £30"

It is going to be very difficult to emulate this without some sort of steam pilot loco to handle the in and out workings. Ideally a Jinty though the 8F's were used at Euston around this time on pilot duties.

 

Well 'Mr why the hell' we know that 08's operated at Crewe at this time and did the shunting or some of it. DTG have said that the first release will be steam only so I deduced from that there will be no diesel to do the shunting clever eh?

I don't know if they had turntables and a steam shunter has not been announced so I asked the question would the AI do it. I can't see DTG adding a fully functional turntable can you? I mean 'what the hell?'

 

I thought I saw a turntable when they were going through the route diagrams in the stream, so maybe that is it, you only need one on the Liverpool end of the line as Crewe will have a portal.

 

We don't really know much of anything regarding how the route itself will play out. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a steam shunter loco DLC - a Jinty would certainly be a good addition. I'd rather see that doing shunting on the first steam route rather than an 08.

I wouldn't be surprised if turntables are featured on the route. Sand Patch Grade and West Somerset Railway have operational turntables already so they aren't new to TSW.

 

They already have fully functional turntables for the players to use in the game so as long as the AI can use them to turn locos round as well then both the AI and players can use them in the timetable. There definitely needs to be a way for AI locos to turn round between runs.

My current guess is that a station pilot will be provided but it will be one of the two locos included doing that duty in place of a dedicated shunting loco. I’m looking forward to seeing how it all works whatever they come up with.

 

I didn't realise we had turntables in the game already, I had stop playing ages ago. But cool, then that seems most likely then as you said the trains surely have to be turned around and I imagine using a turntable would be quite fun.

Personally would love to see a class 08 in the game at some point but as you also said it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

Well, although the 8F could be used as a pilot in a pinch, I don't fancy maneuvering a full size steamer around the yards and terminus. The route is going to be seriously short handed if it doesn't come with a dedicated switcher/pilot, steam or diesel. We already have versions of the 08 in the game, why not use one?

 

This is what I have been trying to say and it would increase says of the route as some Diesel fans would pick it and then give steam a go without it they would not bother.

 

Class 08 shunters were very much part of the railway scene by 1958 and the LMS had been using them since the 1930's so I wouldn't see the harm in an 08 being included. It would be more realistic to see those in the yards and more desirable to have one as a station pilot even if it wouldn't be totally impossible to see an 8F taking up those duties.

If they have a stopper service to Crewe, I wonder if they are intending to turn engines at Crewe or have them run tender first.

 

Push pull would be a lot of fun!

 

The AI needs a loco to do so, and whatever loco it needs has to be one that the player also has. DTG haven't done AI only locos, and I doubt they're gonna start doing that now. Fact is even a AI loco would still need a high detail exterior model, and basic physics. Considering all the stock that already needs to be done adding in a AI Jinty would be a rather large increase in the workload. Also if they were planning for that it would be odd to not make mention of it alongside all the other stock they were doing, even if it was AI only.

Yes I could, it just means the route will focus more on mainline traffic than shunting. And even for the shunting services they'll need to do it's not like mainline steam locos are incapable of shunting, they're overkill for that purpose in most cases, but they were perfectly capable of it. Whether that inaccuracy is something you're ok about is one thing, but it's far from inconceivable how they'd work around it. After all this is the same company who put a Class 101 on the GWR, I don't think a 8F doing some shunting is anymore absurd than that was.

 

Opportunity for a shunting dlc…

 

Personally I would rather they include an 08 to do the shunting/yard work rather than leaving it to one of the two included steam engines as that would give a little more variety to the route.

This is where I miss the TS1 scenario editor, we are hamstrung by DTG's limits on what they want to include and how realistic they try to be or what research they are looking at, the class 101 on GWE being a prime example.

They seem to put more effort in realism on their modern routes, they even changed ballast on the SEHS route as it was the wrong colour. Yet the incorrect train, in the incorrect livery on GWE isn't a barrier. Those absurd incorrect layers on WCL, although that may be a Rivet decision I guess. On NTP why do all the expresses have the BG at the rear, do DTG think that there is a large loop at Liverpool and Newcastle as if it is a model railway? Why did they include a three car class 101 on TVL when such a thing would have been vanishingly rare at that time if not unknown. yet on NTP they supplied all two car sets at a time when three car sets would have been common alongside them.

As the first steam route we know there will be compromises that is understandable and hopefully there will be some DLC to fill any gaps on shunting and local services, I can see from Matt that DTG are enthusiastic about it and I do have hope that it lives up to expectations, I am sure it will look stunning, but I just hope it doesn't turn into a one hit wonder and gets ignored.

Steam period enthusiasts are just as much into detail as any other rail enthusiast, more so I would argue. Obviously a bygone period is harder to model as much of it has gone but there is so much research material in books and films and people memories then a realistic experience is possible, they managed it well in TS1 and going back to other simulators like MSTS.

 

Upon release I would imagine the 8F being allocated shunting, station pilot and stopping passenger services, as well as freight of course. Heavy express passenger services would be handled by doubled headed jubilees until a larger engine comes along, such as a Royal Scot or Princess Royal.

In my opinion the route needs the following relevant locomotive classes added so that most operations can be appropriately served:

Princess Royal Class 4-6-2 Extremely route relevant. The 12 Princess Royal pacifics at this time were allocated to Euston - Liverpool Lime Street top link express services, with all/nearly all members of the class divided between Edge Hill or Crewe North at this time. If you wanted to drive a Princess Royal, this is the route. The Royal Scot is also relevant, but if I had to choose I'd rather have the Princess Royal. The later and larger Coronation pacifics were mainly allocated to Euston - Glasgow Central services at this time.

Black Five 4-6-0 or Hughes Crab 2-6-0 Necessary for mixed traffic work. Both were widely seen on the route. Although out of the two, the Black Five seems the more likely addition as it's more well known.

Fowler 3F 0-6-0T 'Jinty' For shunting and station pilot duties.

If any Diesel are to appear on the route then the class 08 and class 20 seem most appropriate, as by late 1958 Crewe South had been allocated several class 08 and class 20 (D8000 - D8004). Also of interest is that a few class 24 - D5000 and D5001, were allocated to Crewe South late 1958.

 

For me a big tank engine to work local stopping services is the the most important addition.

 

2-6-4T either LMS or BR Standard (like the old Wrenn model) = Day 1 purchase for me.

 

DTG are not going to make more than 2 locomotives for a new route. Heck, two is one more than normal. And the Class 20 is right out, since the existing 1990's Railfreight model would have to be rebuilt from the ground up to be correct for the fifties; not just the paintjob, but the entire cab (which was reconfigured sometime in the 70's for tail-first running, not to mention the dual brake systems).

The only extant locomotive which could plausibly be included is the WSR 09 masquerading as an 08.