German Train Crash

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by dhekelian, Feb 16, 2022.

  1. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I heard on the news that there was a train crash in Germany with 11 injuries but no deaths but it wasn't explained what caused it or I missed it. Could someone explain what caused it?
     
  2. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Two trains collided on a stretch of single track.
     
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  3. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    No explanation for it yet as far as I know. Supposedly driver error though.
     
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  4. Noel06

    Noel06 Well-Known Member

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    One person died.
     
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  5. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replies. That's a shame someone died. Didn't realise it was on a single track?
     
  6. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    That was although two days ago on the münchen s-bahn line 2 423 ran into each other during rush hour
     
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  7. Noel06

    Noel06 Well-Known Member

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    It was on the s-bahn line 7, not 2.
     
  8. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    Mate I was talking about 2 423’s
     
  9. Noel06

    Noel06 Well-Known Member

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    Oh sorry.
     
  10. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    This should help and these are from ARD ZDF Bayern 24. Can also been seen in SWR Stuttgart Appenweier WDR Aachen MDR Riesa-Dresden & Tharandter Rampe Routes. All are in German Language


    Here is the Article from BR24
    Not sure if the 423 Units involved are in HMA? if so DTG should edit HMA to remove the 423s involved in the accident
     
  11. jasonpfc

    jasonpfc Well-Known Member

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    Although it's bad what's happened, it would be wrong to speculate what's happened while an investigation is taking place.
     
  12. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    Speculation is that one driver pressed the over-ride button on a ZS1 signal to clear it.

    Unfortunately despite what some may think, German rail safely systems and culture is not as strict as UK and Irish based rail health and safety rules. A fact that still amazes me with PZB, LZB, and Sifa.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2022
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  13. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Can’t you override a TPWS stop in the UK as well? That’s something Matt showed off in Carthcart if memory serves.

    If so, then not really a difference here. A driver is never allowed to use the PZB override without explicit order from the dispatcher.

    What exactly do you mean by passing a Zs 1? If the driver had a Zs 1 signal, then they did have explicit permission to pass the signal.
     
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  14. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Yes, with explicit permission of the signaller.
     
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  15. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Not good news, then. Sad to hear someone died in the event. Hope those who were injured are able to recover quickly and well.

    ---

    Firstly, not really great instantly thinking about a game's recreation of a vehicle that someone died in.

    Secondly - no, they shouldn't. HMA is set in a time period, and those units were running in that time period.
     
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  16. lord everything

    lord everything Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunate. My thoughts are with the family of the dead person.
    Nah, because put it this way:
    Just because 43140 was destroyed in Stonehaven, doesn't mean DTG should remove it from GWR, because GWE is set in a time before it was destroyed.
    The units will probably be scrapped though
     
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  17. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for telling me about this so this case they would still be there for game purposes but in real life scrapped. Basically the game is some sort of time capsule that has the accident unit running unlike real life where it was scrapped.
     
  18. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    No. The game has routes represented in the time they were set. That's practically like saying "oh well the majority of the NTP stock is scrapped, so shouldn't it be removed from TSW?" - no. TSW is set in the period it is set in. it's not a time capsule, it doesn't advance with time.*

    *Rapid Transit is a half-exception, as it's new timetable is set in a different year, however the route itself doesn't change.
     
  19. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Well-Known Member

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    Yes, same as the Tripcock system on Chilterns fleet, didn't stop somebody resetting it of his own accord and narrowly avoiding a head-on collision.

    Humans are always the issue with a system that has a human override.
     
  20. lord everything

    lord everything Well-Known Member

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    To be fair I did find 627 on Boston sprinter which I thought was damaged beyounf repair in 2016 but that's probably to do with autonumbering.

    As for Munich-Augsburg, consider that TSG are making a 420 for it, don't think they run over there anymore, do correct me if I'm wrong
     
  21. lord everything

    lord everything Well-Known Member

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    Well also there are two timetables for GWE if you get DLOTGW, only a few 52s survive but I can still repaint it into ICE livery and run it from Koln to Aachen ;)

    I actually did that, it was crazy
     
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, the two leading cab cars will be; those were clearly totaled. Whether the coaches and trailing cab cars were significantly damaged is an open question, but it doesn't look like it.
     
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  23. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    They do still run there.
     
  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The 420s (actually, ex-Stuttgart 420s) were given complete overhauls 2014-16 and placed back in service in Munich.
     
  25. lord everything

    lord everything Well-Known Member

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    Oh OK.
    Even so, my point still stands
     
  26. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, sort of. The biggest example is Main Spessart Bahn which today is completely different from the TSW DLC, with a tunnel bypassing most (or the entire?) Spessartrampe eliminating the need of banking operations.

    Surely it has to be more complicated than this? PZB Override can only be used with explicit authorization from the dispatcher so I wonder if there is an element of miscommunication or something similar.

    Let's wait for the investigation... I wonder what the chain of events was.
     
  27. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I get the feeling that something like this is the case, especially since the train coming in the other direction was late and should have already cleared the single track section on a normal day.

    Everything following in italics is my own speculation based on what we know thus far. Please, do not mistake it for actual news on what happened.

    Maybe it was muscle memory? One article stated that one of the trains had suffered an emergency brake application by PZB which was cleared again before the crash. I haven’t been able to confirm this to be the case though. If it is, I could imagine the train driver in the station setting off due to muscle memory (train is ready to go, train in the other direction should already be past me) without explicitly checking the signal again. When the 2000 Hz magnet tripped, he mistakenly attributed it to either breaking the 45 km/h start program or an still active 500 Hz monitoring and cleared the emergency brake application without consulting the dispatcher (which he is required to do). All just speculation on my part, but since no alcohol was in play and the other train was delayed, I feel like muscle memory may be the culprit.
     
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  28. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting theory, and I could see that happen. The question now becomes why did he even close the doors on a red signal? AFAIK it's bad practice, but again if he went full muscle memory it's possible he didn't pay attention.

    Could this lead to more safety being introduced? I think an argument can be made that something like DRA could have made a difference? Or maybe PZB should indicate a 2000Hz stop clearly (as not to be confused with anything else, maybe require a different recovery procedure. Realistically I think this could be used as an example to try and make the ETCS rollout faster (like how some incidents helped the US in implementing PTC more quickly).

    The only way to know it's to wait for the investigation. It's definitely an odd incident though, with all the safety layers being in place on a modern busy commuter line. It's not like they are using telephone blocks or similar...
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  29. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That's what I'm thinking. He may not have checked the signal at all (after stopping) due to muscle memory. Just checked if all the passengers have got on/off, closed the doors, and set off.

    It does on MFDs (says 2000 Hz Beeinflussung on it). The 423s still have MFAs (LED indicators on the desk) though where it cannot be displayed explicitly.

    Interesting thought. That could definitely increase safety.

    If my theory is correct, then yes, something like DRA may have prevented the crash.

    As far as I know, ETCS is only planned to be used on new high-speed lines, to replace LZB, and on some international lines. So it's not really a case of faster, a track like this won't get it at all. If anything (based on how the media represents the crash here in Germany), I could see a push being made to get rid of single track sections for passenger rail and have them all be double-tracked.

    True. All this speculation doesn't really get us anywhere.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It has seemed to me from the time I first encountered PZB is that it has a serious design flaw: it will penalize you for doing something wrong, but never tells you what it was you did wrong. And since there is a single sanction for all infractions- Zwansbremsung - the driver is left to figure out whether he SPADed or failed to acknowledge a signal.
     
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  31. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is supposed to be mitigated in two ways.
    1. Newer trains with MFDs tell you what caused the emergency brake application.
    2. You’re not allowed to lift the emergency brake application until you’ve discussed the matter with the dispatcher and have been given explicit permission to lift it.
     
  32. raretrack

    raretrack Well-Known Member

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    This article infers there was a near-miss "in the area" six months ago too.
     
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  33. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That's reflected in Game too on selected German trains. Failure to acknowledge PZB MFD says WT Below that Zwangsbremsung
     

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