Why Is There No (or Little) Historic German Content?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by jolojonasgames, Feb 19, 2022.

  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, as many of you know not all TSW routes are set in the current time. Tees Valley Line, Northern TransPennine and Clinchfield RailRoad all take us back a few decades to yesteryear. The upcoming Liverpool to Crew route will go even further into history. In addition to that many countries have plenty of old rolling stock in modern times such as the '72 stock on Bakerloo and the new old SD40 for Sand Patch Grade.

    That makes me wonder why there is so little, if any historic content for Germany. The closest things are the BR 155, 143, 204 and 363. There however seems to be a great lack of content here, defenitely compared to TS classic. There are no old West German electrics, old main line diesels (the BR 232 from TSW will change that, and the BR 420 is a welcome addition aswell), etc., let alone a full on period route. I've made two '90s suggestions (The Saalebahn from Saalfeld to Naumburg and the Main-Weser-Bahn from Frankfurt to Marburg), which have seen some popularity on the forums. In addition to that there seems to be a general call on the forums for something that is not a plastic EMU.

    [​IMG]
    120 129 in front of IC 702 "THERESE GIEHSE" near Maua, August 23rd 1996, from my Saalebahn suggestion

    [​IMG]
    103 156-6 hauling an InterCity from Leipzig near Rudolstadt, July of 1995, again from my Saalebahn suggestion

    [​IMG]
    A BR 140 and A BR 141, both hauling local trains, in front of Frankfurt Hbf, from my Main-Weser-Bahn suggestion.

    [​IMG]
    A BR 111 in front of an InterRegio, again from my Main-Weser-Bahn suggestion.

    However, historic German content seems to be limited to a few old loco DLC's for modern routes and some upcoming TSG loco add-ons. I feel like that's a true shame, since so many bygone era's of German railroading are so interesting (with my favourite being the '90s due to the eclectic mix of liveries and East and West-German rolling stock). With some hints being dropped for Dresden - Chemnitz becoming the first German route to see steam (thus meaning a loco pack or singular add-on for this modern route) it also seems like there aren't any upcoming period routes for Germany due to Spirit of Steam either, even though routes like the Moselstrecke before electrification are well documented and very

    [​IMG]
    A BR 23 with 4-axle 'Umbauwagen' between Winningen and Kobern, from my Moselstrecke suggestion.

    [​IMG]
    A BR 44 with a mixed freight train, photographed just after the BR 23 from the last picture, again from my Moselstrecke suggestion.

    [​IMG]
    A BR 01 with an express train from Paris consisting of both m-Wagen and n-Wagen heading towards Koblenz near the entrance of the Kinderbeurer tunnel, again from my Moselstrecke suggestion.

    All in all I just really wonder why there's so little historic German content. Is there really no demand? I guess I also just feel a slight frustration at the fact that the scope of German and West-European content in general is so narrow (with only LGV and Rivet products bringing change to this). Please let me know your thoughts on the lack of this type of content below. Also feel free to let me and others know what kind of historic content from Germany you'd perhaps like to see and what your favourite era's are and why. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  2. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think Matt said that the main 3 markets for trains sims are Germany, UK and the US because the big portion of train fans in the US and UK, while in Germanly more people seem to enjoy simulators compared to other countries, and generally DB trains are well known in Europe.

    Also IIRC Matt said since generally train fans (UK/US) tend to be older than Simulator games players (GER), and generally people are more fond of the period when they were young, they figured there is more demand for older content for the UK/US train fan community, while the German crowd being more of a "simulator enthusiast" community (?) [This is so awkward I'm sorry], generally tends to be younger, and thus appreciate more modern content.

    Definitely don't quote me on this, I'm basing it off memory of a long gone stream, and even the thought of trying to find it after all this time is daunting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  3. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    It would be good to see any german route set sometime in the DR part of Germany or the DBB part
     
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  4. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I can recall Matt saying something like that, but it’s just from memory in my case as well :D

    Another issue is probably research. It’s not just Germany not getting much/any vintage content, the US doesn’t really either. When CRR came, Matt explained that the only reason DTG could do it was that they were in contact with one guy who had all of the necessary reference material and personal recollections of their operations. If vintage US stuff is already this difficult for DTG to pull off, then how difficult is a German vintage route where language is yet another barrier? Don’t think it’s impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but the bean counters probably don’t see a good cost/benefit quota in it compared to another contemporary German route.

    For now, it seems like our best bet for vintage rolling stock at least is stuff still running around today, mostly run by private EVUs.

    I’ll die on this ship if I have to, but since you asked for it, I’ll bring out the broken record again. Any Einheitselok. Preferably a 140 (or 150, but that isn’t really possible anymore).
     
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  5. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    That's a shame, these young sim enthousiasts truly don't know what they're missing out on :/

    I mean, the reference material is definetely there in the moddeling and railfanning community, perhaps just not within the simming community. I can think of so many blogs, forums, instagram accounts, etc. where tonnes of reference materials are shared just because, or to help others perfect their layout. There definetely is the possibility, no doubt, DTG would just have to look outside of the sim community.

    I completely feel that :). A BR 120 in orient red would also be a great pleasure for me. Actually, now that I think of it, there are so many things I'd love to see that there's no point listing them out here.
     
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  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It would be nice to see a German route set in the 80's similar to TVL or NTP for the UK. Classic diesel and electric locos, UIC compartment stock with the unforgiving hard plastic half back seats or the bum numbing Silberlinge experience!
     
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  7. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    I have gone back to model railways and uninstall TSW2 as although spirit of steam interests me my era of 1980 to 1994 seems to have now been ended with West Cornwall and we all know how that panned out. The lead time of development for this platform is huge and by the time the next DLC comes out I may have built another layout. I had started picking up DB content but after a while the predictably in every run means I am ended up on quick drive on TS2022 or MSFS which has more randomness. To get back on point a 103 would be ace or any of the older electrics. The diesel front is lacking already as a 218 is lacking although 232 on the way in the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    232 and the 420 EMU will be a step in the right direction for retro (if and when they appear) but will still be running on modern DB routes amidst a sea of red Electric Karts and Dostos.
     
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  9. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    People will props be quick to paint the 232 into the old DR era of the 232
     
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  10. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I know I will. It's also the first thing I did after a repaintable 143 came available, and the 112 from HBK was immediately repainted into orient red :).
     
  11. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Here’s hoping the 232 will be an altbelüftet (with the original cooling system) version and not a completely modernised one.
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this. The reality is that not many german players prefer older German routes and there is nothing wrong with that. Not many German players wouldn't want to drive old clunky german trains that belong in a scrapyard. There is nothing wrong with that. Just because some people may prefer a certain route in a certain era doesn't mean that others will. I certainly wouldn't buy a historic german route because I prefer modern German trains. So if DTG know that a key part of the playerbase doesn't prefer historic german routes, then the safe option would be to not make them because they may not sell well for german players. Sure it may suck for some that there isn't a historic German route but nobody would be missing out on anything especially since alot of these older trains aren't in revenue service anymore

    There are still many modern german routes that aren't in the game that have different trains as well
     
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  13. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That’s a little harsh, don’t you think? Some of these locos are still going strong 60 years after they’ve started revenue service. To use your logic, just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they’re scrap.

    What does that have to do with anything? F7s are hardly in revenue service anymore either, but does that mean CRR has no place in TSW?
     
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! We get it that Mr Tallboy likes modern plastic trains and DTG have provided plentiful entertainment for that particular niche, with the virtually identical Plasti-Karts and Dostos. But I travelled around Germany in the early to mid 1980's, I'm an old fart and proud of it, want to relive those days, just as in Flight Simulator I want to use DC10's and Tristars, not modern carp flown by computer...
     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think you misinterpreted what I said in my entire post so lemme try to clear the air.

    The reason why there are no historic german routes in tsw is because most german players perfer modern trains according to dtg. Meaning that if a key part of the playerbase doesn't perfer historic German routes, it wouldn't make sense to make them because they may not sell well. We perhaps may see one in the future although I believe there were not many historic german routes made for Train Simulator either. DTG are clearly playing it safe in that regard. You may not like that but that's currently how it is at the moment. At least the recent german routes come with older trains like the DB BR 363 and the DB BR 143. The DB BR 232 should also be a good train for those who like older trains

    The reason why we have historic american freight routes and historic British routes is because those audiences tend to be much older folk and there is a general level of people in that playerbase who want modern American and British routes and also historic British and American routes hence why dtg make them. If the german playerbase prefer modern German routes and not historic German routes then it would make sense for dtg to make modern German routes as from a business perspective, they would be playing it safe to satisfy that playerbase and the wider playerbase as a whole since these routes sell well anyways.

    As for me calling old german trains clunky and pieces of scrap, that was more of a jab to those who call modern trains pieces of plastic. You don't see me saying to people that they are harsh in saying that a modern emu is a piece of plastic so I don't see my statement being harsh.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  16. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    I think thats very unreflective, as TS prooves there is a high demand for historic German content. Also I as a a german do not generally prefer, but would like to see older routes. I dont know why DTG thinks that it wouldnt be popular in TSW, as its very much so in TS.

    But the thing about older german stuff is, that you dont necessarily need to make a route set in the past, as many Altbauloks could be seen in operation well in the 21st century. DB Red 111, 141, 151, 218 with older Dostos or n wagen (German Slam door stock :D) etc would fit perfectly on routes like MSB or RSN, so that would be appealing to both modern and ,,heritage" players.
    Of course something like a 103 needs a ,,historic" (70-90s) Route, but DLCs of older locos like the ones above are perfectly doable in current routes, while providing a different style of gameplay than set AFB and Press Q now and then.
    Also older routes would be relatively compatible to modern content, as in germany safety systems werent invented somehow in the 60s like in the UK and then just rarely spread across the Network. Indusi (PZB) dates back to the 30s, and it was unthinkable that any medium or major line in the 70/80s in Germany wasnt equipped with safety systems, so you could run modern stock at least realistic in terms of operation on German routes in the past.
    And if you choose a route where modernisation of stations or such wasnt the fastest, you could perfectly have a route with a 80s and say 2010 timetable without major unrealitic parts like the DLGW Pack. Eletrification? Already there in the 80s. Signalling? Still the same as back then. Of course it depends on routes but there are a lot of examples for such ,,cross era" routes.

    So the reality is that there is demand for something other than a traxx, and theres nothing wrong with that :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  17. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Is there? Because as far as I know the majority of German TS content is modern plastic stuff.

    We'd be missing out on variety.
     
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    So when dtg say that most german players perfer modern german routes, that's unreflective and stupid then?
     
  19. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    There is, to be fair most isnt from DTG, but most major classes of electric and diesel locos are there and some in an astonishing qualitiy like VRs 103. There arent that many historic routes though, at least some, but as i said german stuff is pretty compatible across the last 4 centuries
     
  20. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    And I'm throwing in the disagreement wench on that.
    I would love to see another US historic route being made, rather than another modern route that everyone is used to seeing these days, and I'm sure many would agree to that (which I know you don't have the answers to that). And would also agree to Lamplight's point that it would require the right amount of research materials to make the route look very accurate in that time period, but at least it'll be worth it in the end if that happens. Plus, I wouldn't mind seeing a historic German route either, I would go for diesels and steam in that country than doing another electric loco or EMU any day of the year.
     
  21. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Stupid may was the wrong word, i deleted it from the original Post, but yes, older german stuff would have an audience.

    So arent they bringing Steam to germany, as it would be historic and german?

    It would provide variety and as i said would fit on modern routes, and something like an ICE 1 is already 30 years old, ICE3 20. . Bpmmzs were (unmodernized) already around in the 80/90s. 101s are starting to be withdrawn. Are those already too old then? Something like a 111 was in frequent service all across the country less than 5 years ago, and still can be seen today in regular service.
    Of course its DTGs decision, but saying that nobody wants it is just wrong.
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh but remember there are many other modern german routes that aren't in the game that could be made that doesn't only feature dostos. The DB BR 1440, DB BR 481/482, DB BR 641, DB BR 147 IC and the list just goes on and on.

    Also recent German routes have seen older German trains such as the DB BR 363 and the DB BR 143. The DB BR 232 and the DB BR 420 are also on the cards. DTG can continue to add older trains into these routes where applicable so satisfy those who want older trains on german routes.

    I think if there will be historic German routes, the best chance to see them will probably be from third parties considering that DTG haven't made many historic german routes before. Perhaps there will be historic german routes in the future
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    So you disagree with DTG then?

    I'm only saying what dtg have said as to why there haven't really been historic german routes and what the playerbases from the big three countries prefer according to what dtg have said in the past from surveys and streams. It's easy to ruffle some feathers it seems
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  24. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Well, that has never happened in the Forum before, has it? ;)
     
  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG haven't confirmed any steam route in Germany. The first steam route is in England.

    Yes older german routes would have an audience, but I am just saying why dtg haven't made older German routes because the preference according to dtg for most german players is modern German routes. Most of the historic German routes in ts weren't made by dtg but by third parties. Im not against a historic german routes coming to tsw but all im trying to do is explain why there haven't been historic german routes in tsw based on what dtg have said in the past.

    Also I never said nobody would want a historic german route. [Removed by Alex: Rude Remark]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  26. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with DTG, I just disagree with your statement of the playerbase. That's all.
     
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And my statement of the playerbase and the preferences when it comes to why we have modern German routes and why there is flexibility in eras when it comes to American routes and British routes is based on what dtg have said in the past before so it seems like you do disagree with them but ok
     
  28. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Early German diesels would be sweet.
    Nice post OP.
     
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  29. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    Let me put it this way:
    If there wasn't the playerbase to be considered, whether it's business related or not., then at least there would be more historic routes being made without people making a fuss, more or less, on what they like and just go with it.
    But since this is my opinion, I doubt you would understand, and still gonna rehash on what DTG have already said in the past that I already know by now. So good day!
     
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  30. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Most British players prefer modern routes too but that hasn’t stopped DTG from making historical routes and locos in the UK. The ONLY way DTG can see if players want historic German content is by making a historical German route and seeing how well it sells, something they seem reluctant to do for some reason.
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And the reason why dtg make historic British routes is because they know the British playerbase like both modern and historic routes.

    Making a historic German route would be somewhat of a experiment since most German players according to them prefer modern German routes so it could be that they don't want to make something that perhaps wouldn't sell well. It would be cool if they did though to satisfy the people who are interested historic German routes but I feel the best bet for a historic German route would be from a third party considering most historic german content in ts wasn't made by dtg but by third parties.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  32. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I understand your opinion. It's not like I can't understand other people's viewpoints.
     
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  33. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648
    I think, in order to make your case, you should define what you understand as "historic" (historical?).
    Old stuff? From the very beginnings, like 1890-ish? Or 1960-ish?

    I´m an old fart too, I´m not getting too excited with those "plastic EMUs", lever forward = drive, lever backwards = brake. Duuuhhh ...

    My favorite loco is the BR 155 (ex. DR BR 250).

    And, yes, I´d like to see more rolling material from the 1960s and 1970s (DR BR 211/242, DR BR 106, BR 118, BR 120, BR 132, BR 103, Kö etc). But that´s where you get also in trouble because of the german division until 1990. You´d have to built up completely different rolling stocks and ambience. Would be quite an endeavor for a studio that needs to survive on it.
     
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  34. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Please let's not start this pointless debate.

    There is no answer, some like modern stock, others like older trains, an argument on what era would fit best into TSW can be successfully made for both options. I'm sure DTG has considered/is considering releasing a handful of older DLCs (kind of like they did for the UK - they said that "the past" is more or less equivalent to another country... so at least 2 or 3 DLCs need to happen and sell well in order to make this endeavour successful), but alas they decided to not do it.

    What I think it's going to happen (personal wild speculation) is seeing more routes set in the 2010s (like MSB) which allows older locos to run on a modern era context. At the end of the day standardisation means there are only so many more modern locos and EMUs to make before starting to get repetitive, which IMO is a decent compromise, even if I would like some older routes myself.
     
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  35. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I would love to have historic German routes. There is a lot of reference material available, so that cannot be the real issue. Maybe it is a problem that DTG people do not speak German and that ca be a big issue in understanding German reference material.
     
  36. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Because it doesn't sell very well. End of discussion.
     
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  37. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    I didnt know there was something old german on sale that doesnt sell well. DTG thinks it doesnt sell very well, probably based on surveys or such, but there is no real evidence of it, because there isnt a historic german DLC (if you want to count it there is the 155, but it doesnt seem like noone wants it....)
     
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What case? I am not trying to make any case. I've only been saying why DTG don't make older/historic routes based on what DTG have said in the past. Sorry if DTG have given answers that don't satisfy you. I'm not gonna get into a pointless debate on modern v old/historic. We all have our preferences. What's next Freight Vs Passenger routes? It would be good to one day see a historic german route in tsw for those people that would like it. Perhaps a german route set before the pre unification of East and West Germany would be interesting. I've just been explaining why DTG haven't made historic routes based on what has said in the past. That's all.

    If you want to see an historic german route, make a suggestion and put it in the suggestions part of the fourms. Maybe one day your route suggestion will come to the game
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
  39. LodeStar

    LodeStar Active Member

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    Making a historic route situated in Germany opens up another, more senior/mature player base...making it wider and not just for the sim-fans but also for the huge rail fanning community in Germany... ;)
    DTG is with their surveys only fishing in the current pond of fans..the market is much larger than just that.

    I know for sure a lot of people would easily be happy with a part of the TEE Rheingold route with a BR103 + matching (Panorama) carriages. Just to start of with a REAL classic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  40. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to Germany post war was divided into Deutsche Bundesbahn West Germany and Deutsche Reichsbahn DDR. It has to be one or the other Deutsche reichsbahn retro Routes feature mixed traffic operations on DR BR132 243 250 & V100
     
  41. Kangaroo Conductor

    Kangaroo Conductor Well-Known Member

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    You have no idea how much I crave for a BR 120. I think it's one of the best looking german engines ever made, and I would love to see it in TSW2. Also, I totally agree to your point made. While I enjoy going back to the past in america, with Clinchfield, and TVL or NTP in the UK, I really, really want to go back in time in germany as well.

    Also, contrary to what's mentioned in other posts in this thread, I am "fairly" young. I'm 25, I grew up to the stuff we see in the game right now, yet, I still want to go back in time and experience other trains. It's not about "what is familiar", but also the driving experience. And those are very different among decades in all countries.

    And while we are at the topic of 90's trains, I'd like to make another suggestion that I get reminded of every time I drive to work by train every day: The ICE1:

    [​IMG]1.024 × 612

    Especially with that big dining car.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
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  42. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Hi tallboy7648,

    I´ve mistakenly directed my post to you. However, it was meant for the thread starter. Please accept my apologies. No hard feelings, please!

    I´m having fun with TSW2 as it is now. Sure, some german adds would be nice to have, as explained in my post.
    On the other hand, I´ve no illusion that a suggestion post from me would turn DTG´s strategy around. And why would it.
     
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  43. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    My general definition is anything pre-2000, which is broad, but seems fair as the nineties are already very very different from what we see now with way fewer EMU's and a lot of dated rolling stock still around.

    I'm 18 myself, so yes, it's not just older people that would be interested in historical routes :).
     
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  44. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my thoughts, there will be a lot of induced demand if such routes ever come to the game. Current players might turn out to find them interesting after all, but most importantly, a huge community of German railfans that currently sticks to hobbies like train photography or model railroading could be attracted to the game by this. What's even better (for DTG) is that, as shown by their current hobbies that are way more expensive than simming, these people have a lot to spend on their hobbies. It should be DTG's aim to involve and engage this potential customer base.
     
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  45. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    As someone who likes both old and new, I have to say that the inflammatory remarks towards both sides of the scale are pretty childish, does it really matter who likes what type of train? TSW is only a few years old, I’d argue that it needs abit of everything, apart from the childish behaviour of certain users.

    As for German stuff particularly, I do hope that we will see something old enough to layer in with German steam, and then something a little later (maybe 90’s era?) to layer in with potentially younger 2000/2010 routes, some of the older, post DR/DB, DBAG liveries are quite nice, and make for some interesting consists.
     
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  46. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to see something in the sixties in Germany...
     
  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think that there is an erroneous assumption underlying DTG's assertion that "the majority of German players are only interested in modern routes": the notion that only German players buy German routes. I think that that is highly incorrect; and if nothing else there is a considerable base of US and UK players who were stationed with the military in Germany, or whose parents were, during the Cold War and have fond memories of pre-1990 German trains.
     
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  48. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this statement on its face falls flat because there is no legacy german route in the game, like at all. I can understand, if they publish one and then see instead of going on these assumption. I like the modern german routes but some variety is always good.
     
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  49. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    DTG seem to apply this logic to alot of their content, they said this with LGV, and French content, and more recently with the expansion pack, with the 3 routes.

    Always annoys me when they make such statements, but then I think to myself that they’ve been at this for decades, surely they aren’t so naive.
     
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  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It's not the routes per se, more the trains particularly the EMU's - plastic electric karts are the DB equivalent of the Electrostar and offer no real variety between types. Hopefully the 420 will address that balance but when (?), 'tis only vapourware until DTG confirm a release is imminent (like wise the 232). Already mentioned the Dostos and boring cab car experience. Yes I know the silberlinge used cab cars too, but most medium distance services were "proper" loco hauled, the E and D train network with BM232 etc. UIC stock.
     
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