Creators Club Unnecessary Confusion - A Question For Anybody At Dtg

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by WaveyDavey, Feb 24, 2022.

  1. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    I’ve posted this in the PC section as it’s seems to be the most frequented section of the forums but apologies beforehand if mods deem it the wrong place to post.

    I have something to raise about the new Creators Club that I can’t seem to find any clarification on either on here, the official releases from DTG or elsewhere on online groups and social media.

    I can see a list of companies that it is ok to share liveries of in the Creators Club. Now this is perfectly fine and to be expected but I also see a list of companies who it is not ok to share liveries and who have obviously said they don’t want people creating and sharing their liveries etc…..

    My point is that there are hundreds of other companies who are not down on either of these lists and there seems to be no clarification of where we stand creating liveries for these other companies.

    Now if we CAN share these unlisted companies then that obviously means there’s no point in the list of companies that we can share….. And if we CAN’T share unlisted companies then there’s obviously no point in the list telling us companies we can’t share?

    It seems to me that having a list of “create these” and a list of “don’t create these” is fine if it covers ALL companies out there but it obviously doesn’t so surely only one or other of the two lists is required saying either “only share these real world companies” or “share any real world company except these” and that would then confirm the stance on the hundreds of other companies out there that aren’t mentioned on either list.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
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  2. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    well the list of don't are companies that have asked dtg themselves specifically to not be allowed to be used. companies not listed are under the terms "The use of any other real-world brands/trademarks is not allowed." it is mentioned that the list will be updated over time as well to include any other additions. i do see what you mean that they could have just done one list saying you can do these but anything else is prohibited but you would still have people asking can you do this and that.
     
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  3. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    The 'don't' list is companies that've specifically told DTG that they don't want anything to do with it, even a likeness.

    Officially, you can only upload liveries of companies on the 'do' list, but unofficially it seems they'll let it slide as long as the company's not on the 'don't' list, unless they're told otherwise. "If you ask us, we have to say no".
     
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  4. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    But having two lists with companies not on either just creates more opportunity for people to have to keep asking though so therefore just adding more confusion.

    Let’s say for example that I create ten liveries over ten weeks and none are on either of those two lists then I will ask the same question about each livery ten times…..

    But if there is a single list of either “only these are allowed” or “only these are not allowed” then I look or ask once with my first livery then don’t have to ask again for the remaining nine liveries.

    This raises two questions…..

    1. Which creates more work in the long run for DTG in having to continually answer queries regarding Creators Club.

    And more importantly IMHO….

    2. Which gives the user/customer the easier and more user friendly experience?
     
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  5. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    well if the companies aren't in either list then go with it being stated upload_2022-2-24_16-44-58.png
     
  6. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Like Matt said - if in doubt, don't do it. In the Ts and Cs it clearly states you can't upload the livery of a company who isn't on the allowed list, and you don't hold the license to. I really doubt there'll be that many people who will ask DTG about it.
     
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  7. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Hold on, there’s a specific “don’t” list? Where?
     
  8. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    So in response to both you guys you are both just confirming what I’m trying to say if you think about it…… There is ONLY a need for EITHER a “Only these are allowed” list OR “These are not allowed” list.

    Personally I think the easier of the two would be the first one. No need to muddy the waters and add grey areas unnecessarily.
     
  9. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    But there is a difference between the companies on the "don't" list - they expressly, categorically, want nothing to do with it

    Companies not on that list don't really care that much, and theoretically you yourself could get a license for that company.
     
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  10. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Also, off topic but just noticed this in my signature. Nice one, sam :D
    upload_2022-2-24_16-58-51.png
     
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  11. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    To add to my last reply….. there may not be too many people ask like you say but what about this……

    Someone spends hours creating some liveries after seeing only seeing the “Not allowed” list and not seeing those companies on there only to then have them all rejected.

    Personally speaking I think I’d be a little perturbed and probably put off bothering to create and others in future if it was me and not the best user experience in any way.
     
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  12. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Why would someone look at the not allowed list, then make a livery of one of those companies?
     
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  13. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    I’ll ask again….. why do you need to be told that those companies have not given permission when the DTG statement pasted by Knightfire above already specifically says not to create anything not on the allowed list?
     
  14. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    We're updating the 'Allowed' list when we get a second, as it was an older version of the FAQs - the 'Not Allowed' list is an old version too and won't be there in the updated version.

    Essentially, anything not on the approved list runs the risk of being removed, automatically or manually (upon request or reporting).
     
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  15. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    I think they mean that they wouldn’t see the company on the not allowed list- for example, somebody could make and upload a TransPennine Express livery. It’s not on the “not allowed” list per se, so they may not realise they shouldn’t upload it.
     
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  16. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    No re-read what I said….. they look at the Not allowed list and see that their livery IS NOT on that list so create it only to have it refused because it’s not on the allowed list (that they haven’t necessarily seen)
     
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  17. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Never mind, i’ve found it.
     
  18. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Aha, that makes sense. I was a bit confused as to how Network Southeast were allowed when they’re part of BR. Who would you need to go to to get it approved. Also London Midland. I thought Network West Midlands was allowed.
     
  19. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    If a company's not on the not allowed list, you can upload that company's liver to CC, unless and until DTG have a reason to remove such liveries (ie they go to DTG and say "could you not").

    I know TfL is on the not allowed list as I've already fallen foul of it, even after significant changes (that livery's going back to TSC when I can be bothered).
     
  20. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    Thanks JD my point as I’ve said is that surely the simplest and most to the point way is to just keep a single allowed list that is updated.

    That way a user looks on that one single list and can see simply in one place whether or not their livery will be allowed.

    Unless you’re going to cover every single company worldwide then there is absolutely no point having the two lists as it just creates the chance of more confusion.
     
  21. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Someone who isn't the DfT holds the rights to the NSE logo and livery for some reason I believe.
    London Midland and Network West Midlands are two completely different entities (London Midland is a former train company, NWM is the public transport authority for the Birmingham area).
     
  22. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    What’s the point in this statement then???

    upload_2022-2-24_17-10-22.png
     
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  23. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Oh right. I thought they were the same, for whatever reason. NWM is odd though. As far as I know they don’t even run any trains so I’m not sure what people will do with them.
     
  24. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Because you can upload liveries of people not on the allowed list unofficially. Remember what Sam said and I posted earlier "If you ask, we have to say no", the implication it can be yes if you don't ask.
     
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  25. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Their logo appears on trains and trams (and I think buses)
    [​IMG]
     
  26. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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  27. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    But the statement I pasted specifically tells you not to upload ANYTHING other than what is on the allowed list.

    And therefore if what you have just said there is the stance instead then you only need to list the companies who have specifically refused their permission and keep that one list updated instead. ;)

    However you keep describing it you still only need one list or the other. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
  28. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    It's just a legal thing to cover their backside.

    YouTube says you can't upload trademark/copyright infringement, but they'll only really take such things down if they know about it, or they're told not to allow specific things on (ie their Content ID system). Despite that, I can go onto YouTube right now and watch full episodes of, say, Homes Under the Hammer - even episodes that aired only recently, uploaded by unofficial channels; but I can't watch full episodes of Doctor Who, because the BBC have told YouTube specifically not to allow Doctor Who onto its platform.

    Similar system.
     
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  29. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    But YouTube don’t create two separate lists of allowed and not allowed content though do they. They just say don’t do upload this which does the job perfectly well and yet again is my exact point.
     
  30. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Holy wow. That’s a hell of an upgrade.
     

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  31. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Last edited: Feb 24, 2022
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  32. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    You go to the rail companies and ask, right? Or do they come to you?
     
  33. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    The former.
     
  34. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    ICE? DBs changed its opinion quickly.
     
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  35. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Okay, follow up question- What’s the selection process for asking companies? Also, does GWR cover FGW and what about other FirstGroup licenses?
     
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  36. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

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    From reading a bit further on, you can use the logo/livery - but there are some trains that cannot be uploaded - and these are listed as the ICE3, ICE 3M, the G6 and the upcoming one from Rivet
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Specifically, DB have trademarked the ICE3 (BR 403/406). The train, not the livery. In theory it might be possible to do an ICE-T or ICE2 if those ever come into the game. And you can put the ICE livery on anything else- a TGV? A 1938 Tube Stock?

    I'm not quite sure of the trademark situation with the G6, but it appears in this case to be Vossloh: all real-life G6s have the Vossloh logo prominently displayed, but the TSW version has it removed. Perhaps Maik Goltz could tell us something.
     
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  38. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    The licensing also covers fallen flag United States terminology for defunct railway operator owned by the current existing railroad European Railway. Remember there are German Democratic Republic DDR Deutsche Reichsbahn Dr BR243s in Creator Club since the Deutsche Reichsbahn DDR license is covered by the Existing Deutsche Bahn licence.
     
  39. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    I can't really go into that, I'm afraid. Licensing and copyright law is not my specialist subject, and is pretty complex legal stuff.

    The approved list contains the brands who have specifically said yes to being included. Other brands not listed may be at risk of removal, either automatically via our filters, or upon request.
     
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