I watched the Luzer-Sursee live stream today, matt had an EB condition while driving in the rain, I didn't understand why it happened, so I watched the video over and over again Screenshot of the train at 2 km from the target point of the speed limit, with the signal as the end point and unlimited speed indication 1 km from the speed limit point, the signal is still green, no speed limit indication, no change in DMI The ETCS then triggers an overspeed at about 600m from the speed limit point and an EB occurs Is that correct? I compared the real ETCS and found that it was not consistent
To me it seems like the ETCS is getting the information about the upcoming speed limit "too late", hence the braking curve does not start at 160 and is already way below the current 160 - and therefore an emergency braking is triggered. This seems to happen at the moment when the train passes the speed board that announces the reduced speed. If that is something to avoid with route knowledge (i.e. the driver should already be braking at that point) or there is something wrong (e.g. speed board placed too close to where the speed is enforced, ETCS points not set properly) I don't know, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can shed some light on that.
I tried to play this live stream at 0.25x and the speed board on the signal did not have any speed remind. The part of the railroad seem did not have any individual speed boards being placed. Maybe I'm missing something
There are speed boards, I’ve seen at least a couple, although the system works different than in Germany for example. Go check out the manuals from the Swiss routes on TrainSimulator, they have some explanations of the signals and boards
I've noticed a similar thing when approaching Sursee. If it's a bug thankfully it seems limited to those two places thought
Yes, that's the second thing I didn't understand. In that scene, the ETCS only reacted to the approaching signal to slow down, and the gray bar jumped from 100+ speed to 40 directly, that's very strange, under normal circumstances, it should have shown a yellow bar to indicate in advance that the train need to slow down to 40km/h
In that situation I have the feeling that the signalling is not set up correctly. You go from a yellow to red in 300m, that seems too short and probably the last signal before Sursee should have a speed limit (maybe 60 or something) - similarly to how the Ks signals work ( e.g. around Dresden).
Yes, I just checked out the Gotthardbahn Alpine Classic DLC manual which made by Rivet. But that line is used the Integra Signum and ZUB safety systems, this line is ETCS. In my understanding, ETCS should know the speed limit in advance, Instead of slowing down only when approaching the speed limit point. Maybe my understanding is not right？
Yeah, sorry, was referring to the manuals for the signals and speed boards, not for ETCS Since this is ETCS level 1, it might be correct how it works, but I don't know. Rivet promised a manual, maybe that will help to figure some of these things out.
my fault, mainly I feel that ETCS L1 and L2 should read this information automatically, without the driver needing to read the speed board additionally, likeness Germany LZB system, but the brake need the driver to exert
I think I remember hearing on one of their YouTube vids on the route that there are no speed boards in real life but they added them to make it easier for people. I believe the ETCS communicates all the info to them.
I don't believe that behaviour is correct. I believe (not a fact, but an inference) that at a fixed distance from the new speed limit there should be two balises that tell the train when the next speed limit starts, and what the new limit is, and from that ETCS calculates the appropriate braking curve. Something along these lines This screenshot is from a video about a slightly different system, I just posted it here to better visualise what I'm trying to say. Or at least I guess it should be able to know the limit beforehand. As far as l understood the point of ETCS, even if only on Level 1 is to have the driver concentrate more on the In-Cab signalling rather than relying only on route knowledge or track side signs and signals, unlike PZB. To me, (again it's a GUESS) it wouldn't make sense for ETCS to behave like that IRL.
Which level of ETCS did they use although? Stole from steam store description >>> ETCS Level 0 & 1 (Level 1 has “Staff Responsible“ and “Full Supervision“ modes)
Well, the ETCS is some mix of different things. As Jasper admitted on Stream, the Flirt cannot run on ETCS on this line in reality. For gameplay they still included it as safety systems. In reality the line is equipped with ETCS L1LS, but Rivet did some sort of Level 1 Full Supervision.
ETCS L1 Full Supervision. Even if it's not realistic for the Flirt. If I understood what Jasper tries to say, Level 1 LS is not implemented. Options are: Integra/ZUB ETCS L0 ETCS L1 FS
They did not include ZUB, just Integra in their model. And Integra+ZUB would be active in ETCS L0 irl. Irl the SBB Flirt we get in the game has following options: ETCS L0 (which just controls maximum speed)+Integra+ZUB or ETCS L2
Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't sure about what I understood from Jasper's explanation. But alas they have gone for ETCS L1 FS even if unrealistic.
I can´t see the operating level/mode in the screenshots, but ETCS should work as follows (simplified explanation): - Level 0: while in Unfitted mode (UN) you only have a max speed supervision. If you overpass it system will brake. This is normally used at the areas where there´s no ETCS trackside yet or where another national system is used. - Level 1: after starting in Staff Responsible (SR) you have a max speed supervision. After you read any appropiate balise at main signals you can switch to Full Supervision (FS), or maybe to On Sight (OS) to enter an ocuppied track. After that system behaves as LZB, meaning that you have a braking curve to a target speed and onboard will supervise it applying brakes in case of overspeed. Any signal changes are updated at the signals balises only and you see the same braking curve indications as in LZB (coronas with colors on the speedometer and target distances in the vertical bar on the left side). - Level 2: same as in level 1, but while in SR the RBC can also send a initial max distance to run. After train passes balises RBC will send the movement authority allowing train to go into FS (or OS as before). The onboard again behaves as LZB but the movement authorities can be updated at any time in the block. Signals are not mandatory in this level and if they exist its normally because line is operated with another national system as backup. - Level 3: same as in level 2 but this is like a CBTC basically. There´s only balises and nothing else. There´s a kind of moving block created around trains and according to their reported positions. So basically level 1 behaves similar to PZB in game and level 2 similar to LZB but in both levels you have a braking curve to the current target speed when you are in FS mode. If you have a sudden overspeed ETCS will command service brake first and emergency brake later if overspeed exceeds the defined values (normally they can be 5 km/h and 15 km/h in most countries). Even if sudden target speeds are possible depending on the signaling conditions ahead, if target speed decreases too much resulting in being impossible to prevent the brake application, then most likely the system is not behaving well in game or the distances are not properly calibrated for the braking capacities of the train. In real ETCS you enter the braking capacities in the display during start of mission so braking curves are always adjusted to prevent this. There are some other interesting operating modes which are commonly used as well: - Override (SR): its a modified staff responsible supervision triggered by driver, allowing to override the end of authority and pass stop signals therefore - Shunting (SH): to perform shunting movements. Can be selected by driver or sent by trackside. - Trip (TR): triggered by ETCS when overpassing a stop signal and emergency brakes were applied by ETCS - Post Trip (PT): used after driver acknowledges TR allowing driver to reverse train and be able to place train in front of the stop signal again - Reversing (RV): to reverse a train in case of emergency (a fire inside a tunnel for instance). This is normally sent by RBC at very specific areas and if the conditions are met (e.g: no other trains behind you). Cheers
From the DMI icon information, the train uses ETCS L1 and it has entered Full Supervision mode when the train is running in mainline I found a video of a train that also uses ETCS L1. At 5:40-5:50, it demonstrates ETCS Target Speed Monitoring, Target Distance and TTI in DMI to inform the driver how to get the speed reasonably reduced when the speed limit changes. But in the broadcast, we don't seem to see a similar scenario, only with the ETCS EOA ahead, guiding the driver to reduce the speed to 0 km/h. So I tend to think Rivet missing some feature that caused the two emergency brakes in the broadcast.
Nice, thanks. Then what you should always see in the real ETCS is what´s displayed in the screenshot above, in particular: - A dark grey corona meaning what the target speed is - A light grey corona indicating what your current permitted speed is - The light grey corona turning yellow and decreasing periodically when you are inside the braking curve to the target speed Any change in speed limits should follow those rules, allowing driver to adapt to the speed limits in advance. If there´s a sudden signal change (eg: a signal is closed ahead of you) and this happens too close to it then this can produce the brake application. Then the root is most likely the game dispatcher updating routes. Real ETCS normally has movement authorities long enough to prevent this. So when you have a stop signal you still have at least the stop announcement signal ahead of you. You may have only sudden stop aspects in case of failures on track circuits or if any rolling stock enters track without permission (eg: they had a SPAD). Cheers
This ETCS has so many bugs that it is incomprehensible. Why is the game DLCs released with bugs nowaday instead of releasing it after the bugs are fixed?
Bold of you to assume Rivet even has any intention of even fixing ETCS, let alone doing it before release
Hopefully, but realistically I think maybe SMH has the best chances out of all of them, I have no hope for LIRR and I'm very sceptical for Luzern
Is it normal for ETCS to limit your speed to almost a stop through a signal which has recently just changed from red to amber ?
Yes if you are in level 1, because the update is done at the balises placed at the signal, so onboard still has the original stop information stored and has to follow that braking curve until it reads the balise group at the signal. To improve this some lines have infill balises, which are placed some hundreds of meters before the signal and repeat the main balises telegram, so you can get the signal aspect update before reaching the signal. In some countries they also use radio infill (same thing but working via radio and covering therefore a continuous area before the signal). Cheers
Ok makes sense. From a gameplay perspective in how it's implemented here....it is quite annoying as it makes it hard to stay on schedule and obtain gold medals (which is another issue with this DLC in itself)
That's an issue in real life too. Depending on the train types the braking curves can be so flat on the last portion of the movement authority that drivers may need to approach signals below 5 km/h. To avoid that you need either radio infill or level 2 directly. Cheers
