Would You Pay Extra For ‘pro Range’ Loco Dlc Add-ons?

I really wish I could like TS graphics

 

The secret is to play Run 8 for a few days, then try it…
In truth though graphics aren’t the b all and end all of it, as we have seen with TSW and the slight mess DTG have got themselves in with UE game engine. The biggest problem with TS as anyone who has dabbled with the editor will tell you, is terrain painting. Limited palette and clunky tools can lead to a rather blotchy appearance. Even this rather nice Shasta route suffers to some extent, but when you are getting a 110 mile route to thrash classic SP diesels what’s not to like?!

 

i very like TSW2 graphics

 

I was running ECML South on TS1 just last night with the AP track pack with the graphics on the highest settings and really at times you could be forgiven for thinking you were watching a cab ride video. I wasn't even running it with RW Enhancer which improves the graphics even more.

I personally don't think the graphics are nearly as bad as many state certainly not on more recent routes. Bare in mind ECML South is around ten years old.

 

The problem I have with TS aren't its graphics, but the frequent stuttering it does on my new machine. Haven't played TS since because of these frequent lagspikes, despite having quite a large collection of TS DLC.

TSW runs considerably better on my machine.

 

So long as you don't want to introduce anything from off route you're fine. Unfortunately many routes in TSC (even new ones, even third party ones) have issues like missing branch signalling and tracks set to single direction rather than dual (so you can enter a siding but not leave)

As usual, fine if what you want is an A to B drive on the main route, naff if you want to make it realistic besides

 

I think TS1 seems very fussy depending on your system and it doesn't seem to matter whether it is ten years old or brand new. Since having a new motherboard and CPU, not particulalry high spec, I have a generally very smooth experience, only a couple of routes stutter profusely, one being the JT Chiltern Line but I think that is down to the abundance of trees.

Granted the despatcher can be a pain at times but you can usually work around its tantrums. I have not had many problems making realistic scenarios including having AI running to and from portals and sidings on branches not forming the main part of the route.

 

Why would I want to pay extra for something that I should be getting already to begin with?

 

I had loads of issues with this, and gave up using TSC entirely last year

 

Exactly. If dtg say they make highly authentic recreations of locos and routes then why pay more for something that dtg should be delivering in the first place

 

I still maintain that DTG releases too much DLC. As such, their resources are spread far too thinly - which results in a poorer quality product. Less DLC, more resources to work on each one, better product. Or at least that’s what you would reasonably expect.

 

More dev usually means people working in each other's way and "new systems breaking old ones" which is exactly what happens with DTG (time and again)

Unfortunately there needs to be some time for testing and resolution built into the dev cycle and DTG don't seem to do this (evidenced by there being loads of last minute changes and addition even after the "preview stream" which is two weeks before release). For me there should be at least a MONTH of just testing and tweaking before release with no main dev at all

 

You think that doing tests and getting feedback and fixing clear issues whilst a product is in development would be a common sense thing to do. But I guess Dovetail lacks common sense at times.

Devs are passionate but the executives only care about the bottom line at the end. Reminds me of EA to be honest

 

Erm, Arosa released within two weeks of Clinchfield, where DTG did both mountains and new rolling stock

 

Reframing the question.

If we to offer a $100 locomotive range, what would it need to offer to tempt you that the existing range does not?

No, it's not something we're planning, I'm purely curious.

 

The good old fashioned reframe. Since you ask Sam, I guess people would say sounds sounds sounds, some grumbling about toilets, a bit of flange, a switch, working pis etc etc. I’d add in purely for satire, a pizza, DTG keying and hat and signed photo of you and Matt.


Personally I’m not fussed about pro range, just do what you do now 1%better and a slightly more frequent volume

 

As someone who hasn’t commented so far, whatever it contained I wouldn’t be considering it unless it was on sale for at least 75% off (bringing it in line with standard DLC). There is a level to what I can afford for this hobby and the current full price is just about it

 

While your theory is somewhat interesting, I think it is also far too complicated for DTG to comprehend.

 

Install DCS World. It is free. All models are free-14-days-trial, so You can try even the expensive (high fidelity) ones.
Choose F-16, F-18, F-14 (these are high fidelity examples). Go tutorial and just play. This is what* I want for 100$ BR o7

After that, It will be really EZ to understand what is mysterious what*

EDIT full cold start | full interactivity | 99% of switches / 99% systems are functional / etc.

and then compare all this with TSW no-EBuLa, no-even-half IFD functions working, etc etc

 

As stated earlier it would need a much improved platform on which to run. Same as why I won't be buying the PMDG 737 for MSFS.
And I don't think in all honesty I would pay $100 or £80 for a single DLC, regardless of how good it was. I couldn't get that level of expenditure past the wife anyway. If prices started hitting that level, then it would be time to go back to real model railways, at least there's something physical to admire, not just a bunch of 2D pixels on a screen.

So a modest premium, yes again with the caveats above - say £14.99 for a loco with stock or multiple unit and £29.99 or at the outside £34.99 for a route.

 

A 90% discount.

 

I can't remember the last time I bought a DLC for full price. (Not counting the base game or Rush Hour, which already comes with a nice price for a bundle of routes.) I think the best I did was buying Arosa at 10% pre-order discount.

I think current prices are already high enough (not a complaint, I'll just patiently wait for sales). I've got limited budget and a few other hobbies that occasionally require a monetary investment :P

 

I think that's awfully high. For that price, it had better make me sandwiches and walk my dog.

Now, at double current loco pricing ($30-40), we would have something to talk about.

 

I'd expect a Happy Ending at least.

 

There's nothing that would convince me to spend a hundred on a loco, because everything I'd want has been done for less in other comparable products. The most expensive train sim loco I've bought is the Searchlight AC4400CW at $35, and that's a amazing loco. If something comparable in quality came out for TSW2 I wouldn't hesitate to spend $35 on it as well. Granted I do understand hiking up the price that much would mean a lot of the current player base would be excluded for various reasons.

However it's not like you need to increase the price that much for a pro loco. As I mentioned in a earlier post Smokebox was able to bring us a highly detailed FEF-3 within the normal $20 price point, and despite the fact it's from 2014 it's still a lot better than newer content from other devs. And even more recently his 4-4-0's and the Big Boy, which are even more detailed, are only $5 more than the standard retail price for a loco. I don't believe a pro range would need anywhere near the amount your suggesting, in fact I think it would only need to be a modest increase at most. A pro range for $25, assuming that there's true a quality increase upfront, and had better long term support, I think would managed to be pretty popular.

 

Thats a good question, and even as a hardcore fan of all possible features, for me its really not about modeling every single additional valve and make a 100 dollar vehicle out of it.

I would pay 30 Euros for a advanced loco addon called "pro range", which means a solid quality standard of the locos like TSG delivers with its rolling stock. Also for all DTGs classic british diesel locos like the 20, 31, 33, 52 , br heavy freight i would pay 30 euros in the quality they are now. The class 08 is just a dream to drive and fun for shunting, because you can select the different brake mods, the entire thing feels accurate and is modeles in detail.

This thread has a real point, because there are companies droping a cashgrab like the br 187 on the marked, while TSGs br 101 is available for the exact same 20 euro price.

Usually i would say, dont buy if you dont like it, so yea i would like to buy an accurate 187 for 30 euros, but nobody is gonna create a second one.
So the conclusion about good stock in tsw right now is, if there a specific loco lacks of quality, its grounded, since the chance of a parallel product are ultra low. Who is gonna sell me a solid class 150 or br 204? 2 loco examples with wrong transmissions, inaccurate physics and a giant lack of features. The 150 does not even have a Battery isolation swith modeled.

Keep the quality up, its the only chance this franchaise will have a future.

 

Another selling point could be a payware upgrade:

A 10 Euro upgrade pack for wsr, which brings the class 09 and class 47 to a new standard. Currently the 47 has a really bad sound ambiente, and the 09 lacks all the features of the 08.

Wsr is an early dlc, so im not expecting vehicle upgrades, which requires fundamental simmugraph effort changes to get for free. But at least fans have a possibility to pay for an enhanced experience.

 

I feel that instead of a pro range it should be an interactive range.
It is 11.99 for a bundle of five or 2.99 for one.
It adds functionality to over 95% of the buttons, adds full working train management systems or equivalent. All doors should be openable engine rooms etc.
It also includes at least one extra livery,

 

I'm willing to pay more for the pro version. I don't mind buying a standalone DLC or a pack of upgrades for existing models (such as the Armstrong Powerhouse upgrades for the TS).

What I want to see in the pro version:
1. Model with a high degree of detail and high resolution textures;
2. High-quality sounds in the cab, in the engine room, external, in the chassis area;
3. Functional engine room;
4. Expansion of the simulation of the operation of control systems;
5. Improving the physical model of the movement of rolling stock on the rail track (wagging, jerking, rolling, swinging, bouncing);
6. High quality lighting and shadows;
7. Separate prototype models with visual differences and different liveries.
8. A package of exclusive scenarios with a large number of tasks and their complexity.

 

Numbers 1,2,4,5 are already happening, if you listen to the marketing.

 

There's been plenty of times where the marketing mentioned something, only for it to not happen, so I ain't taking their word for it till it happens.

 

I suppose this was pure irony

 

"Authentic simulation" was on the Steam Store page long before they fixed the diesel throttle problem that plagued Sand Patch Grade and Great Western Express in the early TSW days...

 

And more recently the Dresden branches, the SD40 horn update for Clinchfield, and multiplayer were all mentioned. The former was only partially addressed, and the latter two show no signs of life any time soon.

 

I’ve watched a few training videos about those newfangled EMUs and in each unit there are several cupboards each containing numerous circuit breakers and on the outside there are loads of cocks for the brakes etc. I’m assuming that in a pro range for TSW each of those would need to be functional so that the player could isolate any system in a defective unit in a scenario where one of the objectives is to troubleshoot and take the necessary steps in order to continue the scenario. For this, I’d want to be paid rather than paying well over the odds for the privilege and I suspect most others would feel the same. TSW is not my job, it’s a hobby. I want to drive the trains and not much else. I don’t want to be role playing stressful situations that I haven’t had the necessary training to be able to handle.

 

I would imagine if something like that was implemented then I am sure you would have the option to just turn off the possibility of a failure. If you have failures turned on then it would be purely by random chance that it might happen, or maybe you could set a likelyhood of an event level.

I think personally, a train breaking down and then you having to deal with it would be very interesting and something most real drivers will have to deal with at some point in their career I imagine.

I can't see it being implented though so it is unlikely it is something you would have to worry about.

 

I agree with Stujoy.
Too much authenticity and it becomes a full time job. And I'd expect to be paid.
Dovetail walks a line between what's enjoyable by the majority and what the more obsessive minority will accept.
Sorry minority but it ain't gunna happen.

Working toilets now.
These could be marketed as Poo Line...

 

Too much authenticity is what put me off OMSI 2 and X-Plane. Learning curve was like hitting a brick wall.

I think ETS2/ATS does things pretty well, keeping it accessible to a very wide public, but still realistic enough.

 

It's quite pointless to talk about Pro range or $100 locos when, apparently, it isn't possible to equip current engines with properly functioning headlights, consistently accurate sounds and, in too many cases, correctly modeled trucks as well as other exterior/ interior details.

Then there are the numerous core issues in the game which, particularly with consoles, would interfere with the enjoyment of these " super locos " anyway.

Best to focus on all the issues raised here and elsewhere before talking about $100 locos. When the base game is largely bug free and optimized would be the time to discuss such luxuries.

 

Well real life drivers sometimes do have to deal with faults in the train or trains breaking down. I feel like if something like that was implemented, it would be better to have that as an option so if players don't want to deal with failures, they can simply turn it off. It's like how you have the option in a racing game to turn damage off if you don't want to have damage that affects performance if you somehow crashed.

Although with the various issues that this game is currently facing due to DTG constantly making mistakes, I don't see a feature of that nature being implemented at all.

 

In a honest opinion, asking the community what they want (pro v basic) is a bit of a fruitless task. There will always be competing factions trying to shape the game to how they want (without perhaps realizing that both can co-exist with each other). I believe it's one of those cases where "if you build it, they will come".

People argue that they wouldn't pay for $100 DLC. To be honest, we're already halfway there with some TSXX content or enhancement packs from third-parties, who keep coming back with some innovating content. On the flip side, we also do need trains with basic levels of functionality for new-comers (not everyone wants to invest in learning in German signaling as an example. Before TSW, I would hardly touch German content).

This is more bang on the money from me. It is clear that DTG have made more of a concerted effort to improve the simulation in TSW than what TSXX default is capable of. But there are still a number of questions to be had.

1) Would DTG be willing to deviate from short-term turnover projects to focus more on deeper simulations
2) Would the numbers encourage DTG to continue doing so
3) Is the current platform suitable for deeper simulations

With that last point, I would argue not. 15 years after Rail Simulator launched, and arguably DTG is still using the same formula : Create a limited world allowing an A-B route to be executed, and then move onto the next one. Unlike flight simulators where the entire world and networks are modelled as default, Dovetails current environments wouldn't do justice to dynamic systems or gameplay that could properly be enjoyed by a "pro" loco. Including online gameplay, full length routes/networks, dynamic events and weather, collisions, spads, mission start/end. And that's before you actually consider the environments themselves which have proven to be inconsistent in quality, accuracy... and limited to future editing.

To that, I would rather see DTG create a richer world, one that actually keeps enticing people to come back, and gives them some incentive to develop further at the same time. Then maybe we can discuss trains with functioning mitracs/ ebulda/ gsm-r/ electrical systems etc.

 

There was a mention of X-Plane and too much authenticity impacting the learning curve. That is a mistatement - X-Plane provides the opportunity to achieve amazing levels of system detail, including failures, but crucially has provision for controlling the user input requirements and level of difficulty and disabling (or resetting) elements such as failures. The real problem with complexity in TSW2 is the near total lack of detailed manuals in recent releases. In-game tutorials are more or less useless when you have a route in progress. This is exactly the opposite of so many promises of manuals in preparation - when was the last time any of the protagonists even mentioned manuals or guides?

 

All I remember is not being able to figure how to get my flight path into that on-board computer or what's it called, so I'd be flying without navigation. And yes, I've spent several hours reading manuals, forums posts and watching videos.

What a terrible experience it was. At least good old MS Flight Sim X did that part well. Wasn't hard getting a flight set up in that old game. MicroSoft knows how to make things accessible.

I agree. There's some video guides (if you can find them) and in-game tutorials, but it'd be so great to have a manual in order to look up something specific. (Because I really don't want to go through a full 10-minute tutorial just because I forgot the exact order of buttons to press to make a power switch on SEHS, all I need is a short list of buttons to press...)

 

I wouldn’t go to $100 but I’d pay more than the current DLC price if I got:
- realistic physics (acceleration and braking rates)
- the ability to change the length of the train being hauled (with physics adapting accordingly)
- better sounds (AP style)

I’m less interested in every single little switch working, cold start-up, multiple liveries etc.

This is probably an example of how you can’t please everyone…

 

I don't know what you think happens in Toilets but when I used to regularly use Trains with all that drinking I was thankful they were on the train and working!

I think so too. There was an older Train sim that did have them, forget what it is called.

I agree but look at it this way, if there was a third party that started improving existing Loco's/Routes would you go for that?

If indeed there were to be a 'range' it would be a good starting point to flush out routes. But for me station lighting, sound, toilets (lol), proper RD controls, track noise etc have to play a part if DTG are doing it and I'm not sure they could deliver on that.

Fully agree, which is why I think perhaps if there were to be a 'pro range' it would be a third party that had the full editor.

 

Personally, I don't think much of a "pro-line" and agree almost exclusively with the criticisms of the previous speakers.

But I see an alternative that has not yet been mentioned here. She goes towards the "New Expansion Pack".

As we know, there are different players with different demands. First of all, everyone should get the same product, a basic standard. Now some want more than others.

I could imagine that features like "Ebula" don't necessarily have to be a standard, just like some don't play around with the PIS either. I e.g. would love to have Ebula and would you get it as DLC for a route bundle, e.g. all German routes, I would also be willing to pay for them. I would see it for what it is - an optional add-on. If it existed now and cost €25, I would buy it. Others would say they don't need or want it and refrain from buying it. Either way, it would be a useful but optional extension. That makes sense to me.

I see something similar for the scenario planner. It's good that there is a rather rudimentary scheduler as the default in TSW. For many it is certainly sufficient. Others, on the other hand, want significantly more functions and options. This too could be an optional DLC for those who want it. I would buy that again too.

The same goes for more open world. Some like to collect collectibles, others don't care at all. This also includes working construction workers, sheep and cattle herds and all that. This could also be offered as DLC, it doesn't have to be a standard.

I think there is general agreement on what should be standard. You can also think about whether and what can be offered as an optional dlc and techn. that is also feasible. Similar to the new journey expansion pack. This shows me a possible direction.

It should not be forgotten that the handling between the platforms can sometimes differ significantly. What is very comfortable on the pc with a mouse and keyboard can be torture on the console. e.g. ebula.
If it were only displayed in the MFD, it would be just as uncomfortable as the PIS settings. An additional view like the map would be desirable. One touch for the map, then the Ebula, then back again. That would be it.

All of this could be offered as DLC while maintaining and improving the standard. Because you can't have everything at once.

 

in about 2013 i discovered the Virtual Railroads Expert Line locos, and i've not really wanted to drive any others in train simulator since, as i love the extra scripted features they include that make them more challenging to drive, it really adds a lot to the immersion.

i didn't have much money back then, so got most VR el locos from places like green man gaming or in steam sales, called the 'Pro line' loco's there... (Just don't get the BR103 TEE 'TS Pro' off steam, thats had its good bits stripped out to sell on steam


I only got TSW2 as i got a PS5 for xmyth, and TSW2 was on sale for something like 5 quid when i was looking for a game to download for it, but i was pleasantly surprised that in the stock German route (i only drive German trains and routes) you actually had to do a little more than just 'press W then mash A' to get the train going.

I have TSW2 for the PC too now, and since i've found out Virtual Railroads made the BR101 in TSW2, and is making the BR420, i will be buying them at full price to ensure i support Virtual Railroads hard work.


i for one would be happy to pay a bit extra to get all the extra features that are coded into 'expert line' versions, and i'd pay 5 or 6 quid per train to update the original loco's too if that was possible.
Better sounds, more switches working (and able to operate them with keyboard or joystick buttons) and more realistic operations.
i.e. the free rundown button that should be in the BR112, motors that overheat if you push them too hard or forget to put the FML switch on, a working motor temperature display in the BR112, interlocks between power and brake levers, neutral sections of the line where you have to turn the main breaker off and back on, same with pantograph down sections,

Having to watch the ammeter and not push that power lever too far forwards when starting off or going up a gradient of you will overload the motors and trip the main breaker (do that on a steep gradient with a heavy train and you may not get going again)


All these features could be made optional, maybe even 2 versions of the train, so those who don't like having to do too much to simply drive and enjoy the scenery will be happy, and then those who want harder, more realistic and immersive train operations, i.e. 'zusi with good graphics' can have that option.

 

As others have mentioned, many of these features have been in TS for years. For instance, main breaker trip on ammeter overload and neutral sections have been on the Class 86/87 in TS for ever. It seems as if the feature list is randomized!

 

Erm, the 101, G6 and 420 in TSW were/are being developed by Train Sim Germany, not Virtual Railroads

 

Ahhh, what i mean, isn't it Maik Goltz who makes the BR101, G6 and 420 for TSW, the same bloke who makes the highly detailed and functional trains for TS20xx with Virtual Railroads.

So same guy, same high quality, different company name?