PC The End Of Tsw?

Does anyone else get the impression DTG are increasing the development resources of Train Simulator 20xx because we're about to see the demise of TSW?

Firstly we had Flight Sim World. Despite the game having bugs and missing features, DTG said everything was going well and they kept churning out DLC. Then out of the blue it was annouced that FSW was cancelled.

Secondly we had Euro Fishing. Once again, despite the game's bugs and missing features, DTG said everything was going well and they kept pushing out the DLC. Then Fishing Sim World was announced, but still DTG kept promoting the DLC for Euro Fishing. Then out of the blue it was annouced that development of Euro Fishing would cease, despite the many bugs that remain unfixed.

Then we have Train Sim World. And again, despite the game's unfixed bugs and missing features, DTG say everything is going great and they keep churning out the DLC. DTG have now annouced that TS2019 will be a 'dawn of a new era' and they are making a major update to the game engine, this is after a few years with only minor updates (menu changes etc).

Shouldn't TSW be the 'new era?' I want to be excited about TSW, but I get the feeling it's going to go the way of Flight Sim World and Euro Fishing. We've heard nothing of the tools aside from 'they're coming.' There are bugs and missing features from previous DLC, one of which is PZB on RT, which DTG say 'we don't have the time to fix.' Then there's SimuGraph, which DTG say allows them to accurately model locomotive systems and associated physics, yet the physics are inaccurate (by DTG's own admission) and the physics updates to past DLC is taking months.. Lastly there are the player numbers, which have been on a downward trend since the original peak when the game was initially released.

So which is the new era? TS2019 or TSW?

 

If you think that TSW is remotely close to being cancelled then look at the facts again. TSW doesn’t only have a large PC audience, but it now caters to fans on consoles like PS4 and Xbox, that to me is the only detail I need to answer the question is whether TSW will be cancelled or not, and the answer is a very straight up NO! You can think it’s on a downward trend, but the way I look at it, it’s only going up, and with the support of us fans, DTG will continue to release great quality content like RSN and make the game better then it already is. Yes, it has bugs, but so does every other game, and not one game ever has ever came out “bug free” and they’ve definitely shown that they’re getting rid of the bugs better then before like on RSN.

 

Another one of these posts. Move along people. Nothing you haven't already seen here. Now, may I direct this discussion to a location with more like-minded people? Or ya'll gonna scream and shout right here?

 

The major update you speak of is TSx going to 64 bit, it’s a major change but not that major of a change, although that should fix a lot of our crashes and generally make the game run better. - I don’t see that as hurting TSW at all, quite a few folks have thousands of dollars invested in that and they want to still be able to play them reliably

DoveTail did take a gamble with Flight Sim World and unfortunately it did not pay off for them and they had no choice but to shut down the devlopement. If anything them shutting it down probably helped their train sim franchise as they could devote more resources to the project. For many of us it’s still a sad day and we wish they could of found a way to keep it going. - It needed more time, but time = money and when you are a small developer like DoveTail is you have to make difficult choices.

I can’t speak on Euro Fishing other then maybe they canceled the DLC after they announced their new fishing game so they can spend more resources / time on developing that. It has always been my understanding that Euro Fishing was really a test for UE4 to see how well it works for their train sim franchice, but they found out that there really is a market for fishing simulators, therefore they went ahead with Fish Sim World to broaden the game out. - it’s looking good btw, and up for pre-sale if anyone wants to check it out.

As far as Train Sim World - I don’t see it ending anytime soon. DoveTail is putting in a lot of resource into the product and yes, while the developement of the product can be slow and not as fast as what some of us would like (again, due to DTG being a smaller company, they have less resources to spread around). I look at it in the long term, RSN I think is a good example of the direction they are heading and the standard they set with that DLC is quite high.

The player numbers can be inaccurate, you can’t really judge a game based on those numbers alone. Train Sim is a very niche market so that alone will cause it to not have that many players. I guarantee once the 3rd party editing tools is out for the public we will see a big shift in Train Sim World.

I am confident that they will fix some of the more glaring bugs with time, it’s not going to happend overnight.

 

I do not feel that TSW is going anywhere I believe Matt even has said a few times that TSW is not going anywhere. There are still 3 routes in production, I believe that it is here to stay, otherwise they would not have spent time moving it to console.

 

Always wonder when one asks such a question as the OP, if they have even taken a spin on the latest TSW DLC? Then gone back and run any scenarios in TS2018? Don’t get me wrong, I have over 4500 hours in TS2018, but both WSR and RSN beat any TS2018 routes. The new Germany locomotives give the third party VR German locomotives a run for their money.

No, I don’t see TSW going away....

 

TSW is here to stay!

 

Cant compare Euro Fishing and Flight Sim World with Train Sim World. Yes DTG is only up for the money (nothing new) so the their two games who didnt bring the revenue they expected/wanted got cancelled.
TSW just got ported to the consoles, they are already working on the next 3 dlc's and this community proved DTG to buy their products even if they become the most customer unfriendly company in human history.

Edit nvm Euro Fishing got ported to the consoles too, never knew that. DTG proved TWICE they are not trustworthy in regard to future development of their games. Unsure how the future with Train Sim World will look.

 

I don't understand where everyone gets their optimism? I really want TSW to be a success, but I just don't see a way forward.

Why haven't we seen anything of the tools? Why haven't DTG fixed the bugs and missing features? Why have they cancelled a couple of other games under similar circumstance and what makes TSW different to those?

No one can answer these questions (even DTG it seems,) yet people are optimistic, what am I missing?

 

Nope.
Conspiracy theories are a wonderful thing, aren't they?

 

So rather than address my questions you just dismiss my concerns as 'conspiracy theories,' despite evidence to the contrary with Flight Sim World and Euro Fishing.

I'm after reassurance, so as a customer I have confidence investing my money in your product. I don't want to spend a couple of hundred quid on DLC only to have the game fall by the wayside, as happened to many FSW players.

I find your response a little flippant, given I have spent well into four figures on DTG products over the years, as well as creating content, both free and payware, to add value your product TSxx. You're certainly not making me feel like a valued customer and developer; Perhaps in your eyes I'm not, and that's fine, at least I know where I stand.

 

We've already said, repeatedly, that Flight Sim World's fate had no effect on the trains franchises. We meant it then and we still do now.
All uncertainties about Train Sim World's future have come from nothing more than conspiracy theories. To say that TS19's emergence is evidence of TSW failing is utter nonsense. We have been saying all along that Train Simulator and Train Sim World will continue to be developed side by side, Train Simulator 2019 is proof of that.
The trains franchise is, by a long shot, the biggest core of Dovetail Games. Both trains titles are doing well.

 

At the time you guys said FSW was doing well, in fact on Facebook you said it was the future of Flight Simulation, then two weeks later the project was cancelled.

This is why I'm after something solid like a beta version of the tools, or a host of updates to correct bugs and add missing features rather than rushing out new DLC. Just something beyond words, because in the past reality has contradicted your words, that's why conspiracy theories form.

 

I just think you're paranoid.

 

This is the Google Trends page. TSW is just getting started getting some traction. And if you now compare it to TS then you can see that both of them are pretty popular:

(Blue = TSW, Red = TS)

 

To continue from MCGermanyFan's post...

As we can see here TSW has since the console release seen a surge in popularity (4-10 times as much as Euro Fishing or FSW). TSW is going considerably better than the other franchises.

 

I think that it is going to be different when the editor will be released. The last one DLC is very good. And there are much more contents for a new user than at the release of TSW:CSX. The engine of the game is well, details are impressive, and performance (on PC) are good. The future is TSW and not TS2019.

Now, it is necessary to be honest. There is no place in the future for two games designed at the same public. After update of TS 2019, DTG will have to concentrate more on TSW.

 

TSW has only one Problem, not all people have a good PC and money to buy one. So can a lot people not buy a TSW, because they have not the computer for it. Somebody have a console, so can somebody buy it, too. So was it more that can buy and play TSW. A few people can not buy one of it... And I must also wait that I have saved enough money for a PC. And I think so it is by other people, too. It is also a Game what not so much interest for it. So can we not think, they can sale it so much how other games, like Call of Duty or something else... I think Dovetail calculate with it.

 

well, it's not correct. My computer it's an I5 with a modest 960 GT. No video card 1080 GTX for 500-600 euros, necessity to run correctly Train Simulator, as I see at many user's of my players' community. And TSW works very well, it has pleasant to play and very immersif on my computer. I stopped TS who was much less efficient.

 

Complain about DTG not fixing bugs all you want, but Euro Fishing didn't get cancelled. Development stopped in favor of a successor.

 

@Salon
It give also people like me, they have a computer from 2010. I have only a AMD Athlon(tm) II X3 445 Processor with 3100Mhz with ATI Radeon 6670. Also with only 4 GB Ram. I'm happy that I can play TS with virtuell RAM. I told from very old computer. Not from the last 2-5 years. My PC is now over 8 years old. And was not the best on this time. Not all have money to buy new computer all 3-5 years.

 

TilmannB, I'm not buy new computer all 3-5 years, but it is a tower and not a laptop computer. My case has to be 10 years old. And I develop it gradually. I changed the video card. Later, I changed processors + motherboard (before it was a core 2 duo, taken advantage of a promotion). Recently I added a hard disk SSD. It is not a hardcore gamer computer, but it is now correct for TSW.

 

I do not understand where people get their pessimism? Seems no amount of improvement in the DLC can overcome their worry about the future instead of enjoying the journey. Several state they will not buy the newer DLC till bugs in older DLC are fixed. Fine, but that is sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I look at my route collection I have in TS2018 and note the vast improvement they have made over the years. It is very easy to tell the early routes and locomotives. Many early models have the “automatic Cruise control” complained about so fervently in these forums. Newer locomotives don’t suffer such problems. Many of the older routes are amatueristic at best. Some of the newer routes are beauties to behold.

If I had followed the boycott of purchasing DLC till Cajon Pass’s problems were fixed, I would have missed several thousand hours of entertainment while enjoying the continual improvement in the TS201X franchise. I do not expect TSW to be any different.

Tools are slow in coming out, but yet people overlook the vast improvement as the company learns and refines their use of said tools. I am confident they will come.

But what if I am wrong - well atleast I will have enjoyed myself TSW was instead of being worried over stuff I can’t control. Much rather have some enjoyment in the moment than constant angst and worry over something that, in the big picture, is rather insignificant when all is tallied up.

 

TrainSim-Luke given your comment ‘both train titles are doing well’ and looking at the second graph posted by MCGermanyFan if that’s a positive five year trend then business has clearly changed since I retired a couple of years ago. I’d read those graphs as TSW looking like it’s getting some progress at last (and I’d guess that’s console based) but it’s too early to be of any statistical significance. TS has been in a long slow decline and is currently at about 30% of its peak. Maybe 64 bit might halt or slow the decline. The pattern isn’t unexpected given the age of the product.

Potentially I could imagine that sales numbers, at least year on year, might be improving but longer term Dovetail look as though they need to do a lot to keep these products healthy going forward. One real positive is that TSW seems to have escaped the ongoing malaise surrounding the fishing games. What will be important now is that the spike in TSW isn’t just the release of pent up demand for the console versions but something more sustainable.

 

Well you have to know that this is just the search term that is counted. It does not represent how many people buy the game.

 

Assuming the tools do materialise, I think the main issue with the consoles will be lack of DLC compared to the PC. Consoles are lower spec'd than a lot of PCs and that gap will grow as time goes by. This will mean that 3rd Party creators can make routes that will run on the PC but which won't run on consoles, purely because the route is too detailed. There's also a barrier to distribution, especially for freeware. Currently I can repaint TSW stock, (such as the BR blue Class 09 in my profile picture) and whilst I could make it available to PC users, there's no way of making it available to console users. The same goes for payware, Just Trains and AP for example, how would they distribute their content to console? Would they be forced to go via DTG? Granted some of their TS content is on Steam, but most of their content isn't.

It's these questions for which there seems to be no answer which results in some of my uncertainty for the future.

 

MCGermanyFan yes it is just an indicator which is why I suggested that sales figures might (at least year on year) be better. You yourself used those graphs to suggest

‘TSW is just getting started getting some traction. And if you now compare it to TS then you can see that both of them are pretty popular’.

If you think about it one added factor in those searches is the growth of google searches on everything over the last five years. Many things would look more popular just on the basis of more people using search engines.

To @LeadCatcher’s valid point in why pessimism. I personally think there are some positive trends but it’s way to early for DTG to think things are going well. Gradually they’ve been closing down franchises whereas they should (for their own good) be expanding. Now their entire future is effectively based on executing Train Simulation strategy well.

DTG have made mistakes in the past. Quality would be one. There’s also a question about why 64 bit wasn’t introduced for TS earlier. Was it not possible or was the bet that TSW would make it unnecessary? Personally (and it’s just a hunch) is that the Achilles heel of TSW is going to be that the development work in producing that rich graphic content just takes too long (even with experienced programmers). Presumably packages are based on a sale price, by expected number of sales offset by the cost of development. That I think is why routes are going to be short - that the cost of producing per mile is just too high.

If you think about other sim software the solution is easier. Flight sim software for example can use all sorts of digital content to produce continents of data and then focus on the ‘last five miles’ to the airport. Other Sim content doesn’t have to focus on detail over a hundred mile route. So that to me seems the TSW dilemma having to build the route one building and one tree at a time.

 

Abandoned, cancelled, stopped in favor of a successor... call it what you like. Point is, Euro Fishing wasnt nearly at a point to call it a finished game. It still has numerous unfixed bugs and all DTG did was milk some more money out of their customers .. by releasing dlc's every 3 weeks just to finally come up with Fishing Sim World. Funny thing is, even people who bought the season pass got charged for the dlc's

 

Not in the least -- in fact, contrarywise!

 

The console version will simply have only have first party DLC and maybe some third party DLC that is available on Steam. Console versions always have limitations compared to the same game on PC, this isn't unique to TSW.

 

TSW is not being abandoned. But I'll be 100... I'm not a fan of Dovetails "priorities." First with the 'big' announcement with the console versions, the closure of FSW, and a still increased focus on TSXX.

The core team of TSW is very passionate and work hard, but to me, it just seems like Dovetail are prioritising their more long-standing ips, rather than investing 'full steam ahead' with the future tech. Where are the routes, content creation tools, multiplayer (a feature which was one of the first things highlighted in the TSW announcement trailer.) You can't expect to build up anticipation for a platform, and deliever on the content 1-2 years down the line, and I believe this is what the real fustration is with the community right now.

TSW was such a remarkable achievement and a platform with great potential... but for now, worlds feel devoid of life (ironic), content is limited, sessions are repetitive, and the greater community can't contribute towards resolving these issues. Meanwhile, titles such as flight-sim and euro truck sim continue to offer enticing gameplay, economy modes, multiplayer etc.

These are all issues I feel Dovetail would have to seriously address in future iterations.

 

Back on @Digital Draftsman’s comment on 3rd party developers ‘would they be forced to go via DTG I’m not sure that DTGs model wholehartly embraces them. I think that DTG like developers who provide content for them to distribute (it shares the risk of producing DLC and widens the supply, and provides them with revenue) but independently distributed content less so. So, yes I think that’s DTGs preferred vision.

As to whether they’ll want an ‘unequal’ product, that is more powerful on PCs than on consoles that’s interesting. The editor (when available) obviously would start that trend. But going back to those graphs earlier in the thread, and that recent uptick in interest around the console release, if ultimately the majority of TSW users are console based would there would be a commercial interest from DTG in making that the baseline?

Removing user generated content and independent third party distribution is an anathema to the majority of the current user base but until we see some signs from DTG that they are actively supporting both taking them for granted, or at least at the levels we see now on TS, is a leap of faith.

 

I'm afraid as long as no third party developpers have access the base of TSW, it has a chance to go down exactly as FSW did. Hopefully not...

 

I see post are being deleted again.

 

Well this is a discussion as long as we remain courteous there is no reason for posts to be deleted

 

This game has a wonderful potential. It has been on the market for a couple of years now. There are still a lot of tools such as the editor tool missing. We need to have third party devs to have access the game.

The fact having very short routes does not help. We need for example Just Trains of AP to produce longer routes.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the 3rd party devs already have the tools and are starting to make content for the game now. Of course they would be under an NDA and wouldn't be able to say if they did.

 

pdxmark77 I do agree that the third party developers work under an NDA and you will find that they all are very circumspect about avoiding any public conflict or criticism about DTG. But I am curious as to why an NDA would say that they couldn’t announce that they were working on DLC for TSW. What is the downside to allowing for what would be partners to say that they were working on the game? DTG must know that such news would please the current and potential user base. What negative would occur is (say) JT were to announce that they would be working under license with DTG on ‘this exciting new product’? If anything it would lift sales as it would encourage people to get onboard.

Presumably there would have to be some sort of license, even to use the trademarked TSW name. That might, in defense of DTG be the point. They’ve developed and taken the commercial risk on TSW, remember even the engine isn’t stock. What should be the cost of entry for third parties into having access to the product? Equally if you’re a small developer - as many are - what sort of bet are you going to make on becoming a partner (which has costs outside of licensing) until you’re sure that TSW is going to take off?

You won’t have to look very far to understand that for small developers paying a decent part of the DLC fee to both DTG and Steam for distribution which as a consequence greatly reduces their return. That’s not saying that DTG and Steam do anything untoward or inappropriate in taking a fee but it’s just the way life is.

I also believe that there’s a huge difference between third parties producing loco, rolling stock, sound packages, enhancements and reskins compared with building routes. Given the effort DTG had to put in to produce A TSW route for the WSR why do we think that JTs is about to step in with an equivalent of Western Mainlines?

 

Well, for one thing DTG themselves don't announce upcoming DLC's until it's about ready for release, that and the tools are not out for the public yet, so maybe (if they have any at all) only 1-2 3rd party devs who have access to it right now.. (I'm just guessing, and I could be completely wrong). So I wouldn't be surprised that DTG told them to not mention anything about it until they get the go ahead from them.

Even with Train Simulator, I don't think they talk about what they are working on until the product is nearly finished or it's finished.

I could be completely wrong and it's quite possible that no one has the tools yet, although DTG has announced to everyone to download the UE4 editor and start practicing - which is a big hint that the tools won't be too far away from release.

 

But going back to the OP, TSW is not going anywhere, Train Simulators are DTG's bread and butter, and they would kill off Fishing Sim before they killed TSW. With the upcoming editing tools it will encourage more development and content from 3rd parties and users to further enhance the game.

 

Or that the tools don't exist. This convo is kind of predicated on TSW having a similar developer system to TS1, which may not be the case at all

"Too far away"... Is that in the same ballpark as "coming soon" which turns out to be three months?

 

I would be shocked if the tools didn't exist, all signs are pointing that it is coming, with them telling us to DL the UE4 editor, etc. They wouldn't be telling us to do that if they didn't have any tools. They have been quite frank in the past discussing what the plans are for the editor and also why it's taking a long time for them to release it.

As far as having a similar system to TS1, Who knows really what they are going to do, they have talked about it in the past, and I see no reasons why they would do it differently with TSW. I don't want to quote what they said as I don't remember exactly what they said and don't want to misrepresent what they have said in the past.

Even if it's 3 months away, in the grand scheme of things that really is not that far away.

(posted edited to fix a couple of typos, and to add the last sentence)

 

They did say to download UE4 way back when the CSX HH beta was around. I downloaded UE4 and spent a lot of time developing assets to create a TSW route as I assumed the tools would launch with the game, or at least sooner after. That was a couple of years ago now.

We haven't seen any evidence that public tools are in development, aside from DTG saying "they're coming." DTG also said that FSW was the future of flight simulation just a few days before cancelling it, so their word isn't exactly reliable.

 

Flight Sim World is something completely different than Train Sim World and has a different team behind it. Why don't you just get that?!

 

well, FSW is a different story altogether. but I do not remember them saying to download the UE4 editor back when TSW was in beta, all I know is that they recently said to download the UE4 editor to get practicing. They have talked about the editor in the past, maybe not on here but at least on Discord they have talked about it - again I don't want to quote them as I don't remember exactly what they said.

If they for some odd reason decided not to release the tools / editor it would be suicide for them and I doubt they would do that.

 

the tools / editor will be released. I do not worry. It is unthinkable a simulator without tools. All the simulators which work have tools / editor : FS, x-plane, P3D, Aerofly 2, Orbiter, Truck simulator, Farming simulator, Arma etc.

 

pdxmark77 I think you are mistaken in believing that the only thing that is holding back third parties is waiting for an editor. TSW is a DTG product. If you want to market anything using that name you’ll have to pay something and come to an agreement with DTG. This isn’t just a developer saying ‘when the editor comes out we’ll do the ECML’.

I don’t know the finances of the third party providers but I’ll guess that most of them are very small and that they don’t have a lot of financial wiggle room. Devoting money to a TSW route at this point would be risky both in terms of execution (this is new engine for them) and financially (what is going to be user base of TSW say a year in the future). As much as DTGs actions over products like FSW worry us as users remember those concerns are heightened as a third party provider. You could invest in TSW and then have DTG stop development. That could kill your company - and in the case of many third party providers that hurts an individual owner financially.

In terms of DTGs commitment to TSW having just invested in the console versions I think they’ll see how that works out. I think the product would have been on much more shaky ground if it had been a PC only solution as the pick up had been poor.

Yes, train simulation is very much DTG’s bread and butter and their expertise. But if TSW doesn’t achieve the financial targets they’ve set it, like any commercial company and product, it’s future isn’t guaranteed.

I like DTG. I think they’re making progress. TSW has promise. But if they were a public company would I buy their stock at this point? No, shedding products and having traction issues with what should be the new flagship product are warning signs. But that’s what DTG management are paid to manage.

 

Because it wasn't the FSW team that cancelled the project, it would have been upper management, the same management which ultimately oversee all of DTG's project. If TSW is costing more than it's making then the management will cancel it.

Without the tools there is no income from DTG's cut of third party DLC. They are completely relying on their own DLC which they are pushing out at the expense of fixing bugs and adding promised features to the base game. It's not a good situation.

 

MCGermanyFan yes, it may be a different team (although I wouldn’t be surprised if some people weren’t reassigned) but it’s the same management team. You’re assumption is that FSW failed because the team didn’t produce. It’s far more likely that the strategic thinking on the cost, effort and timeline needed to produce the product didn’t map out. If project teams don’t produce you change the people. If your thinking is shown to be wrong you can the product.

 

Bottom line is that we have no reasons to worry. Talking with some DTG staff on Discord they don't sound worried at all. If they knew their days were numbered they would sound worried. Train Simulator has lasted a long time and I don't see any reasons why Train Sim World won't do the same thing. The company knows what they are doing