The quality (technical aspects) of the products from DTG & The Others (not you Maik, not you, ez) is going downhill, overspeeding heavly. BR o7
Imagine a world where this game is looked after by someone who's got the passion of TSG's Maik and similar enthusiasts. But the reality is that this route's got 10 reviews on Steam, and they're all positive.
Just read some of the reviews. I was surprised to read things like "I found some bugs, but they will be fixed soon" again. The main problem with TSW2 is that bugs are not fixed soon, and sometimes do not get fixed ever.
Can we maybe stop making me the "Pope Of Quality" please. The work from all the other people is worth every penny at least too. You generally get what you pay for. Prices for TSW DLCs are really low compared to the work (men hours) that get spent into the making of them. I do spend simply too much into them, what is economically a disaster and can't be done by companies that have to pay their employees each month. Just don't expect too much or you will ever be disappointed with each DLC. What lots of people asking for in the forums, what is basically AAA quality, is not possible with such a niche-game. Some people should really get back to earth with their expectations.
You have to start understanding one thing, Maik. We are customers. We expect that things that worked before will work with our next purchase. Last days it is NOT. BR o7
... and things like this one: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...tive-feedback-thread.53629/page-3#post-476313 This is not about AAA and budgets. Nobody is telling you to waste your time on such mishaps. I don't understand why we have to pay for it and feel sorry for someone.
So basically you are saying, because DTG charge low prices. We as customers can only expect rubbish. Fine, if that is the philosophy. Then my money stays firmly in my pocket. I know you are speaking as an individual. But i pretty much think, you have hit the nail on the head. Why give the proles excellence, when we can get away with giving them dross.
No, that is not what i said or meant. I see no rubbish content at all. Just some bugs and different quality from different developers what is simply a normal thing. Bugs are everywhere. I play a lot of those AAA games and they are full of bugs too that prevent you from play and need months to get fixed if ever get fixed. That is not a TSW or DTG only thing. Lots of people here are making these things bigger than they are. There is generally to much constructed negativity about DTG and TSW. I can understand what you expect as a customer. I'm a customer too with other games and even TSW as i bought most of the DLCs too. But i would never start such harsh discussions about it as lots of people doing here in the forums.
Sorry Maik but while I respect your views I must fundamentally disagree. There are certain minimum expectations when it comes to a route/stock purchase that DTG as the publisher are simply not meeting whether their own in house work or sourced from a third party. Whether that is down to a fault with the core or the actual DLC is neither here nor there. Broken signalling, broken AI, scenarios that cannot be completed should not be making it into the public domain. Just look at the bugs some changes appear to have introduced in the last day or two - locos falling off the track on Boston Sprinter for god's sake. Both Harlem and HSC appear to have launched with major issues. The add ons may "only" cost £24.99, but that isn't particularly cheap particularly in an economic climate where people are having to pay £0.40 more for a litre of petrol and (in my case) £71 more a month for gas and electricity.
To be clear: I am happy with this purchase and my Steam score for it is positive but my imagination about this little community is that we are frank to eachother. BR
I say baloney, respectfully. It’s a niche game, for sure. Yes, I play on console, so my train sim options are extremely limited. However, my disposable income is not finite, and limited options or not, I am not going to spend it on a flawed product that they continue to have issues fixing. $40 CDN for the average route is not a small amount for a DLC, regardless of what you think: I can pay $30 for a Season or Snowrunner which gets me 4 DLCs over 12 months, with a ton of content. Minimal bugs, most fixed fairly quickly, and none game breaking, such as the Save Bug, or an endless red light, etc. The forums have become a minefield because DTG still dangles new routes in front of us, hoping we won’t look at the plethora of issues in the other hand. People are fed up. If DTG doesn’t want the discussions taking a dark turn, the root cause analysis is simple: fix the problems. Do any of us really, really expect SoS to go off successfully? Or are we all watching like you would expect when witnessing an inevitable car crash? We all want DTG to succeed, because we love the product. It doesn’t mean we need to be sheep.
Nobody pretends to await an AAA budget game. Or a bugfree one. But respect for clients and customers. Price of a route is high, sorry. There are other companies that are also in niches game but dont releasy buggy addons or at least correct them if needed. They also release less add ons at lesser price. And far more full of content. Curiously they sell them very well and have an extremly happy player base and review. We have expectations for addons and base game to be payable. To be able to complete services. To be able to save. To be able to not find ourselves in front of a red light after one hour of game play. To have the features announced inside. We understand very well that bugs happen. But fixes should also. TSW has a great potential, and may be the future of train simming. But overall quality must improve.
I have never understood this train of thoughts. The whole "this is a niche market" is a bad excuse. Of course it's a "niche market" with low sales if the quality is always just borderline acceptable, instead of being "woah, what an amazing product". You need to invest to get results. You need to actually make a good quality standard to attract in more players and get more sales. We live in 2022, you can have a market for everything. You will find all sorts of video game software, and in every genre you can succeed if your game is good enough. Even in the simulator genre you fill find very good games that get tons of players. Why? Because they are actually good quality. TSW would have the potential to become a much more popular simulator as well, if it actually delivered in quality and lived up to it's potential. Quality attracts players. If the devs keep hiding behind the "oh it's not worth making it better" excuse, it will never be better and the game will not attract more players. No wonder everyone keeps playing TS Classic, Trainz, Run 8, Derail Valley, Railways Online etc and are excited for other work-in-progress titles like that polish train simulator. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the better graphics and more detail that goes into TSW content. I personally barely play TS anymore and only play TSW. But TSW will never properly grow in the simulator genre if the devs keep running shortcuts and release half-finished routes with full of obvious bugs. With every shortcut you make (unfixed bugs, half-length routes, low-quality assets), you lose tons of customers.
If " get back to earth " means lowering our expectations, I, for one, respectfully decline to do so. We have been very patient, some of us have even offered to pay more for a better product ( after we see the improvement first ). The problem is more fundamental than a few bugs and variable quality. DTG themselves have admitted that they need to do better. And take a look at the support for Mat_Jam_Ca's open letter to DTG in the PS forum. It's not just a few malcontents, but the most loyal, perhaps the heart of the player base. So understand that the people who do the most complaining are the same people who love the game the most.
Yeah, and it is just a hand full from a developers sight tbh. I am doing this stuff for a while now and i got my experiences from it in terms of delivering quality for the 0.1%. I'm generally on your side as a customer but not as a developer. I think this is unsolvable. I ever put more in than i got out of it. Until now, the raise in player/customer base was minimal. It does not really depend on the quality in the first place, as bad as it sounds, but quality is also a wide interpretation. But that are just my personal experiences. i can't and won't talk for others. Sorry for interrupting your discussions with my developers sight. Will not happen again. Promised.
Actually the developer's POV is very valuable to this discussion, particularly as you are the only one who is contributing. Always good to get a contrasting viewpoint.
On the contrary, this was the best addition to the whole discussion, surely venting some frustration helps but it's not really useful to anyone, apart from maybe getting a bit of player feedback. Getting different opinions and POV is instead better for everyone, don't apologise for it, do it more if anything
That would be a pity, although I can appreciate giving inside truths about making things for the game only to be told you're wrong is not the most enriching experience. There are hard truths that a few hardcore fans simply refuse to see - it is a niche product, and however much we want it, there will never be a Euro Truck or Flight Simulator of trains. The price point is a good one - I think Dovetail et al also need to buy gasoline and electricity, so we're fortunate they've managed thus far to keep it at the same price for years.
So niche genre that MSTS sold 1 million copies... I do know that it was 20 years ago and that market was different but still... Euro Truck started as a niche product, come on truck driving, who will ever buy that ? And where is SCS now ? Yes, forum hard core fans are nothing comparés to number of casual TSW players, but Steam reviews really make a reputation. And bad reviews of DLCs will never help TSW to take off.
Steam concurrent users tell a pretty clear story when you compare TSW or TSC to Truck simulators or many others. Even if that is a third of the player base the relative position is clear.
Flight Sim was a niche product. They got to where they were by producing a quality product. I’m not arguing about DTG and their price point, or they’re needing to pay the bills. What I’m saying is there is a giant demand, and a variety of it, for my hard-earned disposable income. If they think they can keep throwing out a product of questionable quality, and expect to just take my money, then they’re making a poor assumption. Love of trains does not preclude a burning of coin. Small developer or not, maybe it’s not fair, but yes, I do expect a quality product. To expect otherwise is silly. Be better, and I will support you all the way. Refuse to change, and I’ll take my money somewhere else. Bottom line. If developers can’t make a quality product, they’re in the wrong line of work.
It’s weird to act this way, when people that truly appreciate your work and say that DLC made by you, and your team, are one of the best in whole game. Cause in my experience, thats really a true statement. If DTG’s solution to be on time with money each month is to do everything in rush without looking at the state of quality of their products, then I guess it doesn’t say any good about the condition or state this company is in right now. Being closed to suggestions and offers of help with resources from community users will be just more destructive to them with time. Yeah, I bet the Dev’s perspective is totally different, but it can’t be an excuse to release rubbish quality DLC with overtime boring statement „its gonna get fixed”. When? How long is the wait for patch to for example, a Traxx 187? Ah yes, let’s wait another year. Issue with such 187 could be solved by, well, any sort of communication or co-work with community, in which some users have daily contact with machine. Don’t believe me it’s possible? Look at title such as MaSzyna EU07 simulator. Game that’s available for free, built by rail fan’s for free for almost two decades now, all progress done on resources provided by player base. Simply by communicating with each other what’s the focus on selected period of time and co-work of users to collect and provide quality resources. In their case forum is used in any worthy way instead of this one here. To end my conclusion. When you act like the quality doesn’t matter anymore or people should always accept „whatever-ness” on quality of released products, ask yourself as a creator, what’s the reason of keep doing this job if you share such state of mind. I bet your work Maik, even if bugs are there, isn’t a target of hate from community. Wonder why? Cause people are stunned how small dev studio can create better content with more passion and quality than big studio that doesn’t offer any sort of REAL communication, cover it’s ears in case of any suggestions from users in case of bugs and tries to act stupid, just to make you pay another 25 pounds on a Beta state DLC. Solution is as simple as to communicate, consider your own will and have any sort of interest of what community could provide to you AS WELL and don’t try to scam them and treat them like blind sheeps, just to grab some more $$$ from them.
Actually, flight sims and PC development have gone pretty hand in hand for 40 years now, many being released as a showcase of graphics potential. Train simulators just don't have that history. The point about the Asobo Flight Sim though is that it captured something at a very specific time by giving people a chance to drop in, learn some very easy controls and explore the world during the COVID lockdown. It sold a million copies in a month, as opposed to 4 years for MSTS, as you mention. By the time MSTS was released, btw, the Flight Simulator series was on over 20m copies sold. I hope that helps underline the point.
Technically, SCS started with truck driving way before Euro Truck Simulator, as it started with the 18 WOS series back in 2002. Though their popularity recently with ETS2 and ATS are where they really hit their stride IMO.
Exactly, because they nailed an excellent product with ETS2 and were able to sustain it succes with quality DLCs. Whole the serie back to 18 WOS sold to truck fans only mostly.
Yes you are right we cant compare flight sims to train sims, even done by Miscrosoft clearly. Even without MSFS thé flight sim market was always broader. Still the succes of MSTS shows that even train sims may sell well, if you have a product adapted to the market... And you cant have such a product if evry DLC has bugs and base game has lackings. TSXX is also a long terme succes with people still playing it despite it age and reluctant to go on TSW.
Maybe DTG should come out and say that then, set everyone's expectations rather than massage the truth.
Dude tells people to just enjoy subpar content... then goes and makes one of the greatest add ons ever - Or half a dozen of them
It's not like those games were published by one of the biggest software companies in the world, so probably had quite a bit of marketing budget. Also 1 million sales in 4 years isn't that much.
Dude points out that as a one-man operation without payroll or other fixed costs, he can put in way, way more man-hours on a product than an actual company can afford to.
According to this, TS1 had sold over 1 million copies by 2017 (probably more by now) https://www.amiqus.com/news/2017-3/train-sim-world-new-release-from-dovetail-games SteamDB rekons TSW has sold anywhere between 50k and 500k copies on Steam https://steamdb.info/app/1282590/graphs/ and TS1 has sold anywhere between 500k - 2.4million copies https://steamdb.info/app/24010/graphs/ Given those really wide ranges, I don't think that's particularly accurate. Would be interesting to know, though.
That is the problem buddy. Too many customers not being harsh enough. If you purchased any other product in any shop or online. Then find out it is not up to standard, i would hope you would complain and keep complaing until it was sorted out. But with software there is this dopey idea that the companies that release this stuff are untouchable. It is even worse because although as customers we pay all this money out. We do not even own the software, games etc that we pay good money for.
BR were actually quite good, at least until sectorisation took hold but that is probably a debate for another thread.
Maik is saying that when people claim it is not up to standard, their standards are too high. In some places this is spot on, indeed you can see people winding each other up on these very forums by speculating wildly about features never mentioned that might appear. When indeed they don't appear people are disappointed. In other places of course the lack of basic ability to finish a complete run without errors means it cannot be up to any standard as it has to at least be playable. Slightly unrealistic or recycled sounds don't make something unplayable, red lights and random derailings certainly do.
Exactly- he's literally telling you he's losing money on each project- which is his right to do and thank goodness for us that he does it anyway- but DTG has bigger responsibilities- TSW isn't even their only product! People just want to wave away the economics, but of course that's impossible.
Maik is talking sense and saying what DTG, Rivet and Skyhook can't say. It's a niche market where ROIs are extremely tight due relatively low sales compared to more main stream games. You all go about how bad the game is yet you all keep on coming back. Take a look at other games without rose tinted glasses and you will see equally bad bugs and gliches on all software. Frontier developments cooked up a major upgrade to Elite Dangerous that was soo soo bad it took around 6 months to get into anything like playable on PC and they actually just gave up on consoles and stopped support and development on those formats. Rockstar games released the GTA tribology which was so bad they had to give away copies of the originals to customers whilst they fixed it. FIFA is just one giant bugfest year and year and they charge a hell of a lot more for FIFA then we pay, then to unlock 3/4 of the features you need to pay again (and again). Regardless of if we would pay more, ultimately the game is too cheap for what some people's expectations are.
Perhaps it's till now a niche game, because of missing the minimum customer expectations. If you want to make a product to a success you have to invest a lot in advance. Then you will get more satisfied customers and you have an economic success. You can lower the price for copy, because your customer base is big enough. Otherwise you have a product with a relatively high price per copy and a limited amount of customers.
Me personally, i just think the insane level of realism the certain crowd of people demand or desire can only be produced by........................... well actual reality, the physically go outside and smash your face into the locomotive of your choice type of reality...........
Some people bought stuff for 300 to 400 $ or € per year for TSW. And you think it's a cheap game? I think some normal working class people with exploding costs of living at the moment would not agree with that.
The thing is if the customer is unsatisfied with the product, the relationship with the product will not last so long. And than will probably switch to complete railfanning in reality or on youtube and so on.
300-400 a year for a game isn't that much when you consider that FIFA special editions are 70-80 each year and you can easily drop 30-40 a month on loot boxes etc. Or Eve which is 200 a year for a sub and then you can easily drop the same again for boosts etc. It might not be cheap to you but it's not an expensive game compared to many. The issue is whereas on fifa you'll spend 3-4 at a time (even multiple times a day/ and not notice, with TSW its 25 a month and we notice that
Sorry but "Isn't that much" has not the same meaning of "cheap". And even Forza, GT, farming simulator, snowrunner and so on cost by far no 300 to 400 per year
25 for a DLC and 12 for a loco DLC which can give hours of play isnt expensive by any stretch. It might be more than you want to pay, but its still cheap, maybe not as cheap as you, but still cheap. Quite how you reach a 400 a year figure is beyond me, whats that 12 routes and 8 loco DLCs? Did DTG even release that many last year? And if you dont buy on day 1 and wait for sales that 400 would buy you nearly double that.
Just totted up how much Ive spent on TSW its circa 400 and I've got 40/54 DLC and I've played over 2000 hours. Which works out as less than 20p an hour. So yeah I'd say that's bloody cheap.
Each Forza has 600 cars and 20 tracks. And it costs you 100 p.a. at maximum. And you can play it for 2000 h too.
This. In reality, what does £25 get you elsewhere? I live in Poland and it's barely enough for a meal in a nice restaurant. It's an enthusiastic visit to the off license. Any DLC I've bought in TSW has given me more hours of entertainment than either of the above so it seems a fair price.
