Horseshoe Curve - Definitive Feedback Thread

Well, in Cane Creek AC4400CW introduction there is a command to switch on the Distributed Power Breaker. But really, it doesn't do anything.

 

They may be better quality individually (still not sold on Luzern though) there is still the case that generally DTG content is better. That may change in the future, but until recently Rivet and Skyhook's offerings have been a laughing stock with little about them making them worth the money. The best routes in TSW are by DTG and this will likely remain for a while.

 

They don't release at an "unrealistic" speed and the air doesn't flow any faster than it did.. In fact what was unrealistic was having a fully-made up consist ready to go, but with brakes completely uncharged as if the train had just done an emergency stop. Now the brake pipe and car reservoirs are almost charged up, as they would be in such a situation in real life; the movement of the game is thus towards realism rather than away from it.

 

This is not consistent with the ES44AC tutorial which clearly states the control switch needs to be turned off in trailing units and brakes configured to Cut-off/Trail. In the 55K inbound to Cresson service, I checked the 2 trailing units and the 2 helpers and they all have their control switch turned to On and brakes not configured

I turned them all off and set brakes as per the tutorial and struggled to get over a 1.8% gradient with 4 units. I never got over 15mph and was overtaken by a GP38

Not saying what you did is wrong, but it isn't in line with the tutorial. We need a bit more consistency from SHG in their DLCs

 

And Cane Creek, although it has its defects, is overall quite a good route. Yeah, that reversed truck is embarrassing, but from the cab I can't see it anyway. Biggest complaint is the incorrect hoppers on the dirt train.

 

By the time a consist is made up with all engines started and just waiting for the exit signal, the brakes should be mostly charged up. You're only going to find completely empty brake pipes and reservoirs on cuts sitting on storage sidings.

 

You're getting a bit patronising now and I'm not a fan. Two is in no way a good sample size. DTG's catalogue is significantly larger and therefore it is much easier to find a conclusion... I said myself that recent DLC isn't as good as the stuff they were making in the TSW2020 days, but you do see to be making minor or one-off issues into ones that make the whole DLC redundant. Are you seriously telling me that Riesa to Dresden is as bad or worse than West Cornwall Local, or Arosa, or the BR187, or the BR204?

That said, I don't like arguing with people on here. Until I am proven wrong - where Rivet and Skyhook have proved they consistently make good DLC and DTG consistently make unequivocally bad DLC - my view will remain as it is now. Blocked for my own sanity.

 

Every timetabled service I've tried in HSC I have switched on "banking comms" BEFORE I do anything else and found I only had to set up the lead unit. There's an excess of power, and flying back and looking through the windows of the other units I found the ammeters showing the same load as in the lead. If it's all working correctly that radio comm button is set to mimic having AI drivers in the rear sets as DPU was never set up in Tsw, so I don't know what else to say - It would be a nightmare if the devs made you set up the unit(s) at the trailing end of the train; walking back a mile* to set up the rear cabs - that's what the 'banking comms' switch is for - to enable the AI to set those cabs up.

*Because the swap cabs keys Control & +/- don't let you jump the trailing locos, and you can't touch the controls through the windows in the 8 cam.

 

I ran into trouble due to the banking comm issue and had to use the emergency brakes. Another train ran to the back of my train and stopped at a short distance behind my train. It looks like Skyhook implemented signalling quite well. In the stream it was said you don't need to stop for a red signal (at least officially) but you may continue driving based on sight. This is really implemented. In the image you see the rear of my train.

 

Yes, but only for red signals which have a numberplate and/or gradient marker. And since Skyhook made it sound like this is a thing unique to the PRR and its successors, I'd like to point out that this is a completely standard, normal rule on U.S. railroads. It is a part of the GCOR and NORAC rulebooks, though with some railroads it's a "stop and proceed at restricted" rather than just continuing straight through at restricted speed (see: CalTrain).

Cheers

 

I don't say it is not normal practice but I was a bit surprised to see it actually working. We take a lot of game features for granted, but for each of them a dev needs to do some hard work and we may appreciate that.

 

I remember explaining this until my fingers went blue with typing back when SPG came to TSW2. I was met with some considerable disagreement. It didn’t help that in some scenarios the trains weren’t set up properly at launch which meant you did have to set up some aspects of the controls in the rear locos and also at no point did the game manual or tutorials mention banking comm or how it was meant to work. I was happily setting banking comms to on and driving without issues in timetable mode while everyone else was traipsing up and down their trains fiddling with controls that didn’t need fiddling with and turning on circuit breakers that had no function and getting incorrect advice here on the forum about how it works in game.

The other issue is endemic in TSW in that tutorials often explain startup procedures that aren’t ever used in timetable mode or in some cases never used at any time in any gameplay. I believe in HSC there is a tutorial about fully charging the brake pipe that is only necessary in that tutorial. This adds to the general confusion as to what’s necessary and also confusion in the forum on what advice is given.

 

If we’re gonna be like that, let’s do it properly. The handful of freight services on DRA with the wrong objective order can still be completed (tested that myself). Thus, not game breaking.

 

In fairness, Cane Creek and Arosa are A to B straight shots, mostly single-tracked and with very little traffic.

 

This. Most US diesel tutorials begin with the cold start procedure- which is never, ever actually used in a service.

 

Fine, it's a useful exercise. But it should also be part of at least one scenario so that it can be experienced in actual game play for those who want to practice the routine.

 

here we go again....

 

Powers are ON because of AI timetable services which have to be all ON from very beginning (service/game load). Hope some day we receive an option to start as cold and dark.

 

Another little one I've noticed..... In the ES44AC if you open the driver's side cab windows you can then only close the front one and not the rear one which is stuck open.

 

If you close the rear one first then it works.

 

Just finished running 20Q, intermodal headed east which starts in Johnstown. Was a fun run and I was looking out for all the railfan landmarks. South Fork looks fairly good, the Iron Bridge at Cassandra is there, Lilly is recognizable, the pump house is in Cresson, though I did not see the Station Inn building. This scenario routes you down main 1, so you get to do the slide at Glitizen. I did note, in my opinion, the dynamic brakes seem to be a bit too aggressive. Even on the 2.4% on the slide, 3 was all I needed to control this train and the rest of the east slope, I varied from setup to 3 to hold close to the speed limit. Going up the west slope, the DPUs had to be working since the 0.6% grade was a snap to hold speed with run 1 - 3. Yet, there was never an indication of the rear pressure on the read out. The train started right up once I finished my setup of the cab and released the independent, so rear pressure had to be up near 89 right at the beginning.

 

What is noticeable after a few passes - the scenery is very consistent. There are no places that look unfinished, modeled by someone with lower skills. The vegetation gives the impression of being natural. Places without trees have well-thought-out textures. Luzern - Sursee seems more authentic to me, but HSC is a very high level. The standard weaknesses of TSW vs the UEngine are not so obvious here. The CRR scenery was sometimes very annoying with the sudden replacement of 2D tree models-placeholders with 3D in the field of view and the associated shading. It's not here. Either it's a global fix or applause goes to Skyhook. Anyway, it looks good. The scenery is great. GG

 

Interestingly there are two ES44's that are parked at the Cresson wye that I swore were cold and dark, but as soon as i sat in the driver's seat they turned themselves on. It was late so maybe i was imagining it, but it was totally silent outside (only the ambient environment noise) before i got in.

FYI, from wandering around Cresson I noticed that there are some AI-only follow-on services on this route. I had driven train 62E (empty tankers) from Altoona, which you then leave sitting on the mainline siding. After a while, a pair of GP38's appear from the RJ Corman branchline, hook up to the empty tanker train, and then haul it back through the wye and the yard and then on towards Mahaffey. I was able to climb on while it was hooking up and ride in the cab but not use any of the seats- eventually it goes off the map and the scenery diminishes pretty rapidly, but the tracks at least go on for quite a while- I eventually just quit to the main menu.

Makes me wish they could have done the branch all the way to Mahaffey.

Anyway the area around Cresson is the part of the route I know best and I think Skyhook did a pretty good job overall. The town itself looks good, and they included landmarks like Cresson Steel (the scrapyard- not sure if it's still operational, but when i was a kid there was always a couple of rusty gondolas being loaded with crushed metal and scrap) and a reasonable approximation Mt Aloysius College. The biggest error I saw is that the Arch street level crossing isn't actually level- the road and crossing gates are there but the tracks are just regular rails- you'd lose an axle immediately lol.

 

I’m feeling the same thing, but the more I think about it the more I think it’s nothing to do with the dynamic brakes themselves and everything to do with the trains being overpowered to begin with.

I am not an expert, but I know that generally freight trains will have a set horsepower per ton based on the route they are on and the grade. It would also get adjusted for weather (a whole other can of worms).

Generally from what I can gather online, the hpt for Horseshoe Curve going up the hill would be something like 1.5.

Now the horsepower per ton is not meant to keep the trains rocketing at the track speed limit the entire time, in real life they generally run slow, the power rating is to get it up the hill at a reasonable speed without derailing or breaking the train. Also fuel considerations but that’s irrelevant to us…

So as I’ve mentioned in a few other threads, a lot of the trains I’ve looked into have way too much power for their weight. Each ES44 has 4400hp. So the example I’ve posted about a few times is the intermodals which weigh 2653t and have 4 ES44s (2 front and 2 rear). So that’s 17,600hp for 2653t, like 6.6hp per ton. Waaay overpowered.

So that means that the train has a ton of unrealistic power to get up the hill. But, to bring it back to what you’re talking about the dynamics, it also from my understanding means it would be overpowered coming down the hill too. Since dynamics are basically using the traction motors on the locomotives to slow down the train, I think having an overpowered train would also make the dynamic brakes feel overpowered, which is what a lot of people have posted about noticing in HSC.

Now I’m not an engineer or expert, so I might be off on some things, but I think overpowered trains is the fundamental problem with a lot of HSC.

I think in real life the trains would be closer to 1.5hpt and have less locos. In some situations they’d still have extra locos (I.e an empty coal train would have enough locos to keep the proper hpt for after it was loaded, but it would probably not be using all the power when empty and would have some of them as dead weight until the loading was done). I’m not sure if 1.5hpt would be correct for the game, because it’s a game a not real life and it might need a bit more power to work properly, but putting waaaay to much power also has consequences.

I can’t speak for all the services yet since I’ve only tried the intermodal… The only reasons I could think for overpowering at least some of the trains is:
1. It’s a total mistake.
2. They wanted to make it easier for people who struggled and complained about SPG and SMH.
3. They wanted the “look” of having lots of locomotives like some of the real life trains without considering that a lot of real freight have so many because they are longer/heavier than what TSW models.

With all that said, from a gameplay point of view the entire challenge/fun of the big freight stuff is to control the train up and down these grades which needs a somewhat realistic hpt. Too much power seems to Nerf the gameplay and make the train way too easy to manage, in my opinion.

 

Yep you're quite right.

Thanks.

 

Nicely summarized, pveezy

 

Which platform are you on? On console the trains are half-sized and so, yes, the same traction allotment as on PC would be overkill.

 

What sort of yellow? There are many kinds, and they can often mean 30 or even 40.

 

This is the main gameplay / concept issue here.

 

https://signals.jovet.net/rules/NS Signal Rules.pdf
Page 3 is the applicable one, since it covers former Conrail territory

 

PS5… so I got the big trains. The 2653t intermodal is 74 cars (which brings up another thing, the container cars in HSC are each only about 1/3rd the weight of the same container cars in SMH and SPG… basically every intermodal train in HSC would have to be carrying only empty containers for the weight to make sense). That might be a bug too. If the containers had the same weight as the other routes the train would still have a high hpt but not as crazy… closer to 3.5 I think.

(a further complication is that I’m not sure if the game or real railroads are using metric tons or US tons… but either way it doesn’t change the main point of my calculations)

 

How does Sherman Hill handle it?

 

That is a problem

 

A good question. Idk.
Another story - SH services are so well balanced and designed in terms of authencitity and gameplay [PC].

 

I never looked into HPT on Sherman Hill because the trains never really felt overpowered so I just assumed they are reasonable. But I can look at them when I am at home.

 

I just went into HSC and SH to look at the weight of intermodal trains and found that Skyhook is using 2653 tons for all their IMs while in SH DTG used 8226 tons, which is probably closer to the correct weight. Guess Skyhook needs to up the train weights in an update.

 

Either Skyhook's containers are empties, or they're shipping loads of down pillows.

 

Remember how this release was on Tuesday, so they can fix stuff by the end of the week? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

(And yes, I know it's Easter holiday, which makes it even funnier they chose this week to test the concept)

 

100% completely agree with you !!!
Initially, i really think the ES44AC utilizes SMH SD70ACe overall physic (especially the dyn braking physic) where you can fine tune it depends on the grade, train weight and the air brake application. What we've got here is they utilizes SPG/CCB AC4400CW physic instead, which got too powerful retarding effect on their dynamics (even at lowest application).
And yes indeed, the Intermodal Train is need way more weight on HSC, oh come on, 2653 tons, seems like all the shipping containers are empty. The ethanol trains also need the same treatment, last time i checked, the westbound ethanol train also weight about the same with the IM train.

 

The west bound tank trains are empty so the weight used is fairly close to a string of empty tankers. East bound, full trains, are 7893 tons.

 

Aahhh i see, new information to me. Maybe i'll try the eastbound ethanol service the next time. Cheers

 

I ran a 6500ton EB manifest last night, 38G Chicago - Abrams. I was expecting more bite from the dynamics and nearly lost it heading downhill around the curve. Wound up getting the brakes blended with a 15 pound reduction. It was nail biting - and fun!

 

How fast are you when cresting the summit at Gallitzin Tunnel?
I'm running an eastbound coal train, 10,000+ tons, 4 ES44AC (3 units upfront and 1 unit rear-DPU). Cresting the summit at 15 mph, dynamics at around 25-37% blended with 10 pound reduction in air. Running fine, not exeeding 20-21 mph along the grade.

 

I was going perhaps a bit too fast! When I hit a summit, I like to be well below the speed limit. I then set the distance counter with the idea of remaining on the throttle in notch one as long as possible, ideally until the rear has crested. I want to keep the train stretched out as long as possible before I start to bunch it up with dynamics going down grade. I realize having DPU units on the rear somewhat changes this strategy. I’d be very interested in hearing from someone knowledgeable about how it should be done.

This time, I pushed it a little too far and counted on the dynamics to save me, but I had waited too long!

 

I saw a YouTube video about coal train operation down the Saluda Grade by Southern Railway & Norfolk Southern Co. When the front end of the train is cleared the summit, the engineer still apply some throttle, but he switched the DP units to idle to maintain a good stretch and keep the coupler strain as low as possible (preventing form knuckle break i think). If only we could control the DP units separately like IRL, would be nice experience.

 

I suppose I could just turn the banking button off when wanted then rear to idle. It might make the downhill run easier to blend as well. Bunch up with a bit of dynamic, apply a small reduction and then blend in dynamic as needed.

 

294 Chicago-E-Rail (Manifest) = cannot insert Reverser handle.

 

With HP/T below 2, the heavy EB services are tricky downhill.
A really big speed gap is very recommended, on the summit before descending.

It may be that the HP overkill for the WB intermodals makes it seem dynamic are too aggressive, but is actually OK.
& What is the optimal speed for dynamic efficiency?

 

How are you reducing the HpT? Decoupling the tail DPUs or are you not switching on banking comms?

 

Do we know if DTG and/or Skyhook have acknowledged the train loads/physics are wrong? I haven’t seen any input from them in the thread, though that’s not entirely unusual these days. Better to fix it now than have to confront the issue months down the road, at which point they will start bleating that changing the physics will destroy the timetable and rejigging it will affect achievements, etc.