Whats Your Biggest Niggle With Tsw?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by redrev1917, Mar 31, 2022.

  1. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    If (and that's a big if) there's some other ulterior motive behind the decision that really doesn't make sense. You wouldn't want to restrict a platform because of fear of HIGH quality items, you'd do it out of fear of LOW quality items if anything. However with DTG's frankly relaxed attitude toward QA in general, and them being on friendly terms with people like TSG I really don't think that's why they've done that.

    If I had to suggest a reason that makes more sense I'd say maybe it's to give DTG more control over third parties. They get to decide who gets in, and furthermore they get to decide what terms they have to agree with to get access to the platform. So they could set more restrictive terms, like requiring them to sell through the DTG & Steam store, or requiring people to give bigger cuts of the DLC profit to them. Not saying it's something that they are doing, at the end of the day I have no clue what their terms are. But that would make far more sense to me, although that logic also has its own flaws.

    I do think the licensing even if it isn't the only factor behind it, is at least the primary factor. After all we see how paranoid DTG are about train liveries, it makes sense why they wouldn't want to risk stepping on the toes of the company they license the game engine from.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's clear that licensing is the reason why they haven't released an editor especially since during the early days of tsw, they wanted to release an editor. DTG don't have their own licensed editor. They use the unreal editor so I don't think they would want to release an editor that they don't own and potentially face legal troubles. DTG probably would love to release the editor because look at the continued success of Train Simulator 2022. It's still going because of third parties and the community and DTG in a way benefit from that as well. There are amazing things that third parties have made in ts that are in some instances better then what DTG have made. It's just down to licensing unfortunately.
     
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  3. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I’m really not sure about this licensing argument (not the UE thing, but logos etc).

    In FS2020 brands, logos and trademarks are used all the time in that game and there is simply no way that the developers concerned have gained permission to use them and paid for the privilege, either up front or through a cut of the profits.

    Just taking third party airports as an example, many will have static aircraft with liveries and they all contain hotels, shops, garages etc etc all with real world branding. Many include full 3D modelling of terminal interiors and contain 10’s, if not 100’s of brands and logos. The small developers, sometimes individuals, who sell (critical point) these products are certainly not getting permission to use these copyrighted logos etc. If they were they would be having to sell their products for at least 10 times what they actually sell for.

    Armstrong Powerhouse are able to sell content for TS1 and include branding etc. TSW is not higher fidelity than TS1 and should be somehow held to a higher standard. The same argument goes for not simulating trains to the nth degree for security concerns. 3rd party aircraft and their systems in Flight Sim are simulated down to the last rivet.

    Unless I’ve missed something the law applies equally to everybody, It can’t be that it’s one rule for DTG and one rule for everybody else.

    Of course, this is different to the issue of using and distributing a modified UE editor. As I said, in my opinion the day they committed to this engine in the knowledge that an editor was out of the question was the day they placed a millstone around the neck of TSW. This isn’t even about mods, but it’s about smaller developers who wish to develop and sell content without giving DTG a large cut. Instead DTG are trying to do it all themselves and this mess of a game is the result.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the unreal engine whilst being quite popular in the gaming industry, certainly limited the ability for dtg to share an editor but you also have a point in that they should've known that once they chose the engine. Unreal wasn't really designed for train simulation but hey at least DTG managed to pull it off. I wonder what other engines DTG thought of using before picking unreal.

    Simrail will have a full editor apparently and that game is using the Unity engine. I wonder how they managed to release a full editor unless they either got permission from unity or made their own custom editor to use in the game.

    In terms of logos and train brands, DTG have said that sone rail companies are very sensitive when it comes to copyright. So it makes sense for DTG in my opinion to be restrictive on things like what custom liveries with a rail company's logo can be shared in creators club so they can protect licenses and not hurt the chance of getting a new license in the future
     
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  5. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure about this? I left the FS forums because they are toxic to the point of unusability, demanding unattainable accuracy, calling things unplayable because a light doesn't switch on or so on. And that's for something with millions of daily players and DLC at double the cost (at least!) of TSW! Go search their forum for the phrase "study level" if you want to see some real meltdowns.

    EDIT: looking at what's available third party now, I would be very surprised if the military jets were indeed "simulated down to the last rivet," it would seem an odd security breach for USAF to allow their military hardware to be perfectly replicated!
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
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  6. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Actually DCS World has a very similar situation in regards to Russian military aircraft. They're a lot more protective of their designs than the NATO counterparts, and as a result they can't be done to the same level of detail. This is why they do do modern US designs like the F/A-18 and F-16 in high fidelity, but the Russian counterparts like the Su-35 or MiG-31 are stuck with low fidelity models.
     
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  7. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Without dragging this thread off topic, I’m not talking about military aircraft. Obviously they are something entirely different.

    I’ve flown a number of aircraft (3rd party) that are available in MSFS and on all of then there is virtually nothing that isn’t simulated. The PMDG 737 is about to release and I am certain that that will be as in-depth and extensive a simulation as you’re likely to get.

    In my opinion the point stands. Citing security concerns as a reason to do half a job is an easy get out clause.
     
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  8. Jonne1184

    Jonne1184 Well-Known Member

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    With PMDG you are looking at the very top end of what is available for MSFS. Unfortunately the majority of 3rd party addons has an average quality way below the standards of what TSW offers. I don't even want to get started about freeware quality standards, although I must say that there have been brilliant freeware aircraft, but they make probably not even 1% of what is available.
     
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  9. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    If you're comparing TSW items to Bredok3D or Captain Sim then sure, I'd agree. But once you get up to Carenado or even Asobo levels of detail I'd say MSFS tends to have a upper hand, and those aren't even high end.
     
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  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I have trouble buying the 'licensing excuse' I'm sure DTG think that is the issue but wasn't there a company recently that said they didn't mind? Which begs the question, has DTG actually asked all these companies? And why does TS1 get 'away' with it and not TSW2? Same company, DTG, no? And SimRail implementing a 'full editor'? Something isn't right no?
     
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  11. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    PMDG planes for Prepar3d go for $100. DCS planes not much less. Given the many posts here that complain about €25 for a route and train package, the day anyone announced a Flight Simulator style price for a TSW product would be appointment viewing on the forums.
     
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  12. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    The save game (dis) function... As rightly pointed out, this is far more than a niggle, but glad it's being highlighted here and in another recent thread. I actually signed up to these forums simply to try to draw attention to it myself, to hopefully get a solid response and commitment to fix it directly from Matt and the team, either here or in an update stream or both.

    Now I find out this save feature hasn't worked even before the latest iteration of TSW. Wow. And I agree, people can't give up on demanding this is fixed just because it has taken this long to get nowhere with it.

    I have a major problem with this feature not working, and I can't be one of only a few. I am a dad of a two year old, work full time, trying to get another career off the ground on the side, and have a busy family and social life in between. But I would still like to grab the 30 minutes that I get here and there to play this simulator/game. And that's the big issue: I only have, often, 30 minutes to spare. I bought this several months back, tried it out on starter scenarios that were quite short, liked it, keenly invested in some more routes that were on sale, then the first time I needed to save it found out that there is no point, because I can't progress past the next red signal.

    Well, guess what, I have stopped bothering to attempt to fit it into the short time I have free, and so I have effectively wasted money on this. That can't be allowed to go on. This is an integral function of the game. One reason I took a chance on the software was because it had the save game function, so I didn't think long routes/scenarios should be an issue.

    Matt did acknowledge this bug during a stream over the Christmas period, so my hopes were raised that it will be sorted. But nothing has been said since.

    Matt suggested that they can indeed get it working but the save file size will be bigger, to record the game states that it would need to save. Okay, so do it. Do it now. Give us bigger save game files. I don't mind. I'm pretty sure it only allows one save at a time anyway, so when I move to a new scenario/route, the save will be overwritten on my drive. Space management sorted. Or I'll manage my drive space manually.

    His acknowledgement also implies that they knew saving the signal and AI train states would create larger save files before TSW was originally released, during the making of the game, so perhaps they removed that critical information from the save data to make save files smaller, which meant they knew from the start it would never work, yet still implented it...

    I'll hang my conspiracy hat up a while. Let's just say, Matt acknowledged it, he implied it can be fixed and that they know how to fix it. So go fix it. A core feature should have been given top priority and patched shortly after initial release of TSW.

    Also, I do wonder how big an issue it could be in terms of file size to record all the requisite game states in a save file. I'm fairly convinced there are many games, such as strategy games, that have to save a heck of a lot more varied game states and seem to manage it just fine.

    To TrainSim-Matt : You're in charge of this, and you come across as a good guy with good intentions, you acknowledged this save bug a few months ago, so please make this the next number 1 bug fix priority. Many of us just don't have the time to commit to sufficiently long play sessions.

    I'll also put this in a separate post if need be, until it gets due attention.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
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  13. Railmaster

    Railmaster Well-Known Member

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    I can't shake the impression that the memory problem primarily affects PC users. I play on the PS4 and save a lot. And I don't seem to have these problems. Very rarely does it happen that I get the message: The game cannot be saved. Then I click save again and that's it. To be honest, I really don't think I've ever had a problem with it right now. Maybe I didn't notice it then. If I couldn't finish a scenario or service, it had another bug. It has even been reported a few times that saving tends to solve the red signal problem.

    Can't it be that I'm one of the very few players who don't have the problem? But it seems to be primarily a problem on the PC. Maybe someone can confirm that?

    Btw- I don't know how it is on the PC but instead of saving it should be enough to switch to the pause menu. Of course, TSW must not be ended then. As long as TSW remains open in the background, other applications are also possible on the PC.

    But no matter what platform, such a problem must be fixed!
     
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  14. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    My issue is that pretty much any core feature is very slow to be updated, or a feature is limited to a specific route only. For example, improved night lighting or improved snow visuals. Same goes for ‘more intelligent’ wet surface visuals, as to where they appear and how they form.

    Another thing is the lack of dedication or motivation to upgrade core visuals itself. I, by accident, found how to significantly increase the look of the cloud visuals, to which, I believe, it was a whole year or so before it was finally added officially to the core game.

    My biggest issue with the visuals itself would be the way the rain looks. It looks absolutely awful, with it looking like solid white lines, as well as the rendering distance of it being absolutely laughable. You can clearly see where it ends. The thick fog effect, which applies with rain, ruins the experience too, as you can barely see anything.

    Adding to the above, the actual rain animation on train windscreens seems to be limited to around 30fps, so it looks really choppy when everything else is running at a higher frame rate.

    Snow on the other hand, looks great. So it shows how good it could look if they actually made an effort to improve it.

    Please don’t forget these things, DTG.
     
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  15. March Hare

    March Hare Well-Known Member

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    The save game issue on PC is not an inability to save the game, or anything to do with memory. The game saves. You load the save and the train is where you left it along the route. However, you cannot continue along the route because either the very next signal or one of the signals further along the route will be stuck on red.

    Pausing and leaving the PC on for, what, 24 hours, 48 hours, a week, isn't an option. Users shouldn't be finding ways around a major bug, anyway, it should be solved properly by the developer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2022
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  16. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I can say, without batting an eyelid, that I’ve spent far more on TSW than I’ve ever spent on FS2020, and I got the Premium Deluxe version, and I’ve got lots of 3rd party stuff. If I were to throw TS20XX in to the mix it would in the magnitude of 10’s of times more. It actually makes me sick just thinking about it to be honest. I got caught up in the whole Train Sim hoopla and have spent a small fortune on content that I will never even look at just because it had a dependency required for a third party route. At the same time, I’ve baulked at spending £50 on Red Dead Redemption II because it was ‘too much’. It’s stupid.

    This notion that somehow DTG are caught in a vicious cycle of low quality, low priced products is just not true. It’s their choice to be like that but at the same time don’t kid yourself on that TSW is cheap. It is anything but cheap.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2022
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  17. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Not releasing preservation updates! DTG started to and even hinted they would do every two weeks but it seems to have gone very quiet on that front also.
     
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  18. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Did they? As far as I'm aware they've only go so far as saying at least one preservation crew update per month for the forseeable future. Perhaps I missed something.
     
  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh i believe they wanted to release at least one or more preservation update per month. Also gotta remember that any update could get pushed back because a fix didn't work as intended or an issue popped up requiring the Pres Crew to fix it again
     
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  20. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    In no order....

    - Dead environments (mostly in the form of rail traffic). Making iconic terminus's for stations like Darlington, Manchester, Edinburgh... and only having 2-3 trains max at a given time is sterile. I would happily have AI with reduced-poly, non-interactive vehicles.

    - Trying to give-up a service or avoid starting the next service when you are already sat in the locomotive seat.

    - Fixed loading times + No guard (I'm one of those people who presses the guard bell to pretend I have one onboard)

    - Trains always loading with full fuel (random I know, but details)

    - Car traffic - Nice to have but mostly the same models, keeping the same distance and frequency in the same direction. And they do not interact with level crossings (although kudos to Arosa)

    - Plastic grass/Soil texture when you catch the light

    - 2D clouds - I will rarely use full cloud settings purely because of how noticable the skybox is.

    - Collectables and Mastery dioramas have no real value to me. For example... I completed the TVL Tier 2, only to find out the diorama reward was a billboard? Amusing for 2 minutes but nothing special.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Further to the above, the door closing sequence whether initiated by the player or, hopefully in the future, by an AI Guard where appropriate should be triggered to meet the booked departure time. Not as it is now at the departure time which means it could be 20 or 30 seconds before you can get underway. In fact, we should be able to trigger the door sequence at player discretion, particularly if running late to make up time.
     
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  22. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    There's some development here at least. On DCZ, Joe set the boarding time to 15 seconds while the stops are still scheduled for 1 minute in the timetable.
     
  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I just remember that German trains take 8 seconds and (modern) UK trains 6 seconds to close the doors, and initiate the closing cycle in time to depart as scheduled.
     
  24. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    constant bloody stuttering.

    Actually, it's more than a niggle now, it's becoming a showstopper for me now.

    I've tried everything via tweaks and settings, I'm fed up of it, especially when the sound cuts out too for that split second.

    I can never remember it being this bad in TSW1
     
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  25. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I don’t claim to have any idea about coding or game engines etc, but this is what I’m talking about when I say they’ve brought many of the same design issues that plagued TS1 in to TSW. Everything is on tiles and them loading is what causes the stuttering. If you’re not on a fast SSD you haven’t a hope in hell. It’s amazing how so many open world games manage to cope without this problem.

    Before people say it (and by ‘it’ I mean ‘ah, but it’s simulating 40 miles of actual track’), I refer to FS2020 again and say that is a real world, real time & real distance simulation just like TSW but it does not load in tiles.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
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  26. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’m no expert at this, however I’d take longer initial loading times if it meant less/no stuttering.

    In bigger routes especially, the stuttering is very noticeable and annoying. Takes away the ‘seamless’ feel of the world away.

    As you mentioned, many big open world games manage this perfectly well, yet TSW stutters so, so frequently. The fact that you can clearly see the next tile load in is pretty immersion breaking too. Scenery loading in and out pretty much right in front of you.
     
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  27. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I upgraded my SSD to a faster one and despite seeing improvements on other games, on TSW the improvement was slight to none existent. On Dresden Reisa it still stutters greatly around Dresden. Theres some major issue with this route with stuttering which nothing I do seems to make any drastic improvement, even if I knock graphics down from ultra & TAA (which I run on every other route with little to no issues) to low & none I still have stutters and frame drops into the red around Dresden. And I am sorry but Im not prepared to play at such low settings when TS Classic looks better!!
     
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  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    The last time I played on TSW2 I was running a 1080 Ti card and got it running great with hardly any stutters at all. What I did was to play around with the engine.ini (suggested here) and other graphical settings, like in the nvidia control panel. I must of been lucky but it ran pretty good but then I hadn't tried Brighton. Some routes stutter no matter what route you are on and really yo shouldn't have to do this editing but it might pay off for you.
     
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  29. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Ill be honest I've never modified my ini files and would have to read up on how to even do it.
    Might give it a go to see if I can eek out some improvements in DRA but like you say I really shouldn't have to even contemplate that in order to good a decent performance from something I've paid good money for
     
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  30. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree but they got us by the short and curlies. They 'aint gonna do it so to get a decent running game we got no choice, and it maybe worth it, I thought so.
     
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  31. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much all games use a tiling system. There simply isn't enough memory (CPU or GPU) on anyone's personal PC to load the entire map of a game. Data is often compressed and optimized when saved to a file so the pak file size is not what the same as the memory consumed when loading resources, the actual memory will be much greater.

    From my own experience TSW seems to load things into memory based on what you have available. My PC has 32GB RAM, 4GB GPU memory, I nearly max out my GPU (it's old), and TSW can consume 4-6GB of RAM at any given moment depending on the route - and that's just with the tiles it loaded - there's hundreds or thousands of tiles that make up a given route.

    Also, Matt has mentioned on a couple streams that it's not necessarily tile loading that leads to the stutter, rather garbage collection (in programming, that's cleaning up old variables and releasing unused memory back to the system). In order for the garbage collector to work properly though, it has to pause all threads the game is using, including the UI thread, momentarily to do its job (trying to check/delete a variable that's being accessed elsewhere leads to bad things). In most cases, this pause isn't noticeable, but if there's a lot to collect or if the GC isn't optimized, it becomes noticeable.
    My opinion is that is actually a bit of both - poor tile loading and poor GC. Poor tile loading is probably less related to the speed at which it is read off the disk, and more to how optimized the tile data is (level of details, in particular) - and especially given Dresden area performance, I'd say DTG have some work to do.

    Little insight into 3D worlds:
    Let's say you want to render a cube with a texture in the 3D world. A cube has 6 sides/8 vertices - that means there's 8 unique points that define the cube location, but multiply that by 3 because there's 3 axes. Then for each vertex, there's normal vertices (used for lighting and other calculations, 3 values), texture coordinates (to map a texture to the geometry, 2 values). Other values like ambient, specular, diffuse colors for lighting can be stored). But let's just take the simple case, the cube has vertices, normal vertices, and texture coordinates. That means this cube loads: 8verts * 3 + 8 N verts * 3 + 8 texcoords * 2 = 64 values * 4 bytes (float data type) = 256 bytes. That seems small, but scale that up for trains and scenery assets (and other data properties stored for each vertex) that have thousands or hundreds of thousands of vertices and you'll see your memory disappear very quickly (100,000 vertices = ~3.2MB).
    Then load the texture, for a 4k texture (4096x4096, actually larger than 4k - must stay in powers of 2) with an alpha channel, the actual loaded size is (4096*4096*4 bytes per pixel = ~64MB), and that's not including MIP levels (lower res version for when camera is further away, typical rule is multiply by 1.5 to get total texture size so its more like ~100MB).
     
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  32. horchata

    horchata New Member

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    please stop placing stopping points for freight services 10 yard in front of red signals
     
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  33. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'll join the party: my "biggest niggle" with TSW2 is (as anyone who actually reads my posts would expect) that not enough activities (scenarios and whatever we're calling those other things these days -- sessions, timetables [not the same as the "times-tables" I learned in grade school]) feature maneuvering rolling stock: you know: switching or shunting or deviando or rangieren.
     
  34. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Yes there is a marshalling command in TSC that Matt said isn't available in TSW, but it would make a big difference if it was. Currently the best you can do is randomly move around items in sidings but it has no effect and no purpose.
     
  35. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Search for Threads from user geloxo his work in ini tuning (especially garbage collecting) changed a lot for me. You don't need 100 settings, have no fear:)
     
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