Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

Depends on your version of better and better. More rolling stock based in the last 20 years with short timetables and red light crashes isn't better for everyone

A plethora of variety in different eras, driving styles, things to do etc would be better and that's what isn't appearing on the roadmap

 

I hate to mention it again, but… Flight Sim World!

 

Well, i dont think TSW is at danger, but in case of really bad SoS launch clearly the steam community will say defunitivly say no to the franchise, while a good launch may bring new players...but how much ? I dont know what part of TSC base players are steam exclusive however.

Now about FSW, IMO it was doomed since launch. I am an entusiastic Flight simmer since years, and when i saw that only a small part of the world was included and others will be DLCs, i didnt even bother to read reviews of FSW. Others sims offered so much more and had already a fiant community of quality paywares.

Now in trainsimming there is nothing such whole worlds sim and DTG has leadership, people despite their shortcomings still like ans play TSC and TSW, so im optimistic about the franchise... If they start pumping quality, non bugged, content.

 

FSW was killed by Microsoft. With the launch of the new, revamped MSFS, no competitor could stand against Godzilla. If Microsoft (or EA or Blizzard or Rockstar) ever took it into their heads to produce a railsim, TSW would be doomed.

 

It’s more likely that the accountants are begging DTG to find something as popular as TSW to develop alongside it. As well as distributing ivory backscratchers to the directors and shareholders because there’s so much extra cash lying around due to TSW’s profit making awesomeness. It’s like a cow with an ATM for udders. They’ve grown a lot over the last few years and are constantly expanding the workforce and that isn’t down to the fishing games or PC only TSC. It’s all TSW.

 

Ship Sim World. Haha

 

Microsoft did produce a train simulator, and it was nowhere near as good as TSW. That's understandable, of course, as it was a different era, but my impression is that it ultimately proved a trigger for other to develop their own train simulators, rather than destroying the competition.

 

MSTS was the direct ancestor, through a couple of ownership and name changes, of Train Simulator 20xx.

 

MSFS would've been a issue if FSW lasted that long, but Flight Sim World was dead a whole year before MSFS was even publicly announced, it was a nonfactor in its failure. Also seems rather silly to suggest that nobody can compete against them when X-Plane's been doing that for about two decades now. And in the combat flight sim market IL-2 despite being made by a at the time small and unknown Russian indie team managed to beat Microsoft to the point of them pulling out of the CFS market all together. It's far from impossible to compete with Microsoft, or indeed X-Plane which is what FSW was really facing against at the time. but Dovetail's offering was a half baked effort.

 

The part with the flight sim and msfs has a point. Still dtg even as a software developer got a lot of knowledge in trains and how they work (same for routes and services). In my opinion to get a real dtg competetor is not that easy, their train sim experience as a dev is their golden cow.

Even if Ea, microsoft &co. would start a "msts" which is better in visuals, less bugs, i dont think any of those big devs would be capable of making it to a good sim & game like tsw.

 

FSW was an offspring of the then-defunct MSFS, so my theory on this is when MS decided to rebirth it they pulled the license plug on DTG

Just a theory but timeline and mannerisms fit

 

I suspect that was the case. If only it had lived a little longer to see a couple of passenger jets added, IMHO would have been a worthy alternative to what MS and Asobo eventually produced. Contrary to what was posted above, all the world was in there to FSX default standard and unlike the new FS, without commandeering half your C drive.

 

I believe this is the point. Why would MS license to another company something which rivals (and is possibly more developed) than their own new shiny product
You know, what DTG do with TSW and TSC and many people moan about

 

I suspect if SoS doesn't work out then DTG may end the UE4 based TSW2 software and start a new engine up or use an existing one that may be less buggy and more user friendly across the board. My point about DLC production lead times being long will not have have gone unnoticed by the powers that be and neither will the negative feedback on many DLCs regardless of producer. How long is it since heavy haul came out? The clean slate must be a more attractive proposition as time ticks on.

 

DTG had the license till 2019, and I know for fact that remained the case as the MSFS blog even made note of Microsoft getting the licensing back from DTG when it happened. So no they didn't get their licensed pulled, they had a agreement of five years, and it played out as planned. Also Matt was asked on his personal stream a day or two after MSFS was announced if he was made aware of it before its announcement, and he said he wasn't. Sure maybe others in DTG could've been aware, but without any evidence for that, and in fact having one piece of evidence suggesting the opposite, I really don't think that's a reasonable assumption to make.

Everything DTG said at the time points to FSW under preforming, and I see no reason to believe otherwise. I've seen people argue that TSW wouldn't be in a healthy place if not for the console numbers, and TSW's PC only numbers are easily five or six times what FSW had at its peak. FSW clearly wasn't going to get to a place where it could match or surpass what other flight sims or TSW was doing player wise without investing way more resources than DTG were able and/or willing to do.

 

All things considered, building a brand new engine from scratch, though will mean DTG can have an engine that can perfectly suit their needs, will require a massive commitment of time and resources and will require everyone on the team to relearn a lot of skills. Another off the shelf engine has no guarantee of being more appropriate for what DTG want to do with it and still requires everyone to relearn their skillset to work with the new engine.

I don't think bugs will be helped at all by the team having to relearn their skillsets on a new game engine. They have spent several years now with Unreal and that is what they know, and they will only continue to grow their knowledge over time. Throwing all that knowledge aside on what will be a complete gamble doesn't strike me as a logical step.

 

Well, having identified a bit of spare cash in my wallet this morning and happening to walk past the Steam gift cards in Asda this morning (one of the few retail outlets that still sells them), I went against my previous judgement and pre-ordered.

However DTG are going on notice with this. It really had better not suck. And for the love of all that is good, get a catering car of some description in there sooner rather than later.

 

Slow DLC production means cashflow slows down which means the business has to assess why. I suspect there is always a turnover of staff and skills learning ongoing. I don't doubt that a lot has been learnt and they wouldn't want to lose that but how long can they keep turning out substandard product. Then having to pay staff to go back and fix. Also as I say if SoS works out, sells well and is received positively by most users then I would see that as a positive sign the TSW2 concept will carry on.

I'm currently weighing up whether I take a punt on SoS or just order the grain elevator I want for my N gauge layout instead. I'm thinking of waiting till release day and seeing what it turns out like although with it being local to me I'm sure I will get it eventually.

 

I just think that having to start the entire process from scratch again with a new game engine is not going to reduce the number of bugs, if anything it will make it worse due to the lack of experience the team has with a new/different game engine.

 

That depends. Bioware nearly killed itself when it transitioned from Eclipse to off-the-shelf Frostbite, because an engine developed for first-person shooters didn't handle RPGs well at all, and it could only be made to work with lots of duct tape and baling wire and massive amounts of developer time (the biggest reason ME: Andromeda stunk was that out of five years of development, three and a half went to making Frostbite work leaving just 18 months to create the game).

 

Well I was a bit conflicted having parted with a fair bit of cash already this month for Run 8 stuff but my curiosity got the better of me. When justifying my expenditure to the wife I tried the model railway vs. sim cost but it didn't cut much ice!

 

It's true that many dedicated modellers will spend high 4- or even 5-figure sums on their railways, but they still retain some value - it may even increase. A software licence generally has little second-hand value.

 

When discussing this with my other half I was keen to point out that models tend to hold some value. Software that's downloadable doesn't have a value past what you get out of it personally which is fine of course and as said earlier its a lot less cost than having the equivalent in models.

 

well, but I would not mind beeing able to resell some of the dlc I have... many times i look at my dlc collection and think "I will not play with this - looking to bakerloo or LIRR for example... - just having a feeling that i got stuck with it because it was imposed to me..."
Would it be that hard to have DLC beeing able to pass from hand to hand? would it hurt the industry and dovetail that much?
If I could monetize some items i do not want probably i would spend it in more dlc i would enjoy...

 

Will never happen. Just be grateful Steam have their 2 hour refund policy and even then you can get cited if they feel you have abused the facility (looking at you, Rapid Transit, 1938 stock and West Cornwall!).

 

Maybe they will attach NFTs and then you can trade the rolling stock and routes and only run the ones you own

 

It is so beautifully written, describing the 1958 Steam in beautiful language and intoxicating text. but! Only 36 miles are available in the game.

 

And this will be the biggest single drawback. Even though I’ve preordered, I just have this sinking feeling it will become another GWE, end to end with not much to do in the middle. After two or three runs in each direction the urge to do something else will be strong, unless the timetable and scenarios are particularly well written. With hindsight, Crewe to Preston or even Crewe to Birmingham would have given a decent length of run and more opportunity for fast running.

 

I'm also sad about the route being only 36ml long but couldnt help pre-ordering it, trying it and knowing the feel of steam in tsw2. Let's hope for the best...

 

I'm still not sure the 36 miles is the biggest single drawback. My biggest concern is Crewe to Liverpool set in 1958 without a Black 5 or a Jinty or something like a 4MT 2-6-4T. If we knew a DLC with additional locos was on the horizon, we could be more optimistic. However, I had the same hopes of a correct HST for WCL and that's never materialised.

 

With their association with Bossman I would be VERY surprised if a Black 5 isn't forthcoming in the near future

 

Would they do as a DLC for this route though? The Black 5 was everywhere, and it could be argued that it would make just as much sense to save it for the next UK steam route.

 

As much as I'd love the Black 5 myself, some may argue that it is too similar to the Jubilee aka the Red or Crimson 5s.

I'm not worried about the route length at all, looking at what Rivet did recently is an example of that. What I really like is the varied amount of coach types and wagons released with this route, it's a big step up in variety for a UK route without any DLC.

 

Except there are no catering vehicles, to keep chomping the bit on this one.

I do believe a Black Five would be useful but agree it would be too similar to the Jub. A tank engine set either a Jinty or 4MT either LMS or BR Standard seems the next logical step.

 

Admittedly getting WELL ahead of myself here but based on this collaboration could we see the next UK steam DLC being a Southern Region main line with Bossman's rebuilt Merchant Navy and West Country classes, perhaps set at the very end of Southern steam with Class 33 and 08/09 diesels as they're already available?

 

Very much well ahead... like over the horizon

 

I know but occasionally I like to indulge in wild speculation

 

I assume I can save money by taking the 'Prepurchase' option on Steam but it does not say so explicitly. Can anyone confirm that the prepurchase price is discounted?

 

No it is not. Standard DLC route pack price £24.99. And they won't discount it now as there would be howls of fury (and refund requests) from those of us who have already pre-ordered!

 

Well in that case can we have a full freight run, Felixstowe to Tinsley in a class 66. This would need the Greater Anglia lines from Felixstowe freight to Ipswich, the mainline to Stratfor, North London Line, ECML (including the Divert via Palmers Green) from Highbury to Doncaster and the line to Sheffield including the Rotherham loop

Of course this needs to be fully populated with about 30 different locos and units and fully timetabled throughout

And now I'm going for a lay down...

 

No "preorder discount"

 

Thanks for the quick response. So it would appear that paying for it now would be utterly pointless unless one wanted to help DTG with their cashflow.

 

I will wait to the see the reviews and see if it’s discounted in June. If not may buy it then as the following Steam sale is Halloween and I don’t want to wait that long to play it. Possibly 40% off at Xmas.

If there is nothing I need to buy in a sale in the next four weeks I will definitely buy it.

 

Essentially yes. It's not as if digital downloads go out of stock!! I made a personal decision to pre-order to show support for the project but that hasn't stopped me posing the question (probably won't get asked) in the thread for tonight's stream about why there is no discount.

I just hope they don't end up doing a Sherman Hill with it, as I picked that up when heavily discounted after only a few months on sale. Would be well gutted.

 

Cinch get Joethefish on it. He's the Greatest of all timetablers

Hentis

 

Maybe a loco dlc pack or something similar for a late/summer release?
As obviously being London and Crewe there is so much to choose from and diversity was massive in that era? We've had similar-ish with the BRHFP?

Although not sure if its wishful thinking to hope for a pack with a buffet car and a tank engine or something to run local services Although I'd imagine they'd want to wait and see how the steam release goes and any fixes or adjustments needing to be made before looking at dlc

 

I am not sure what you are worried about. Their profits went up by about 40% in the last accounts they filed with the company commission (or whatever its called in the UK). They moved their HQ from Scotland to England as well.

 

If there is any loco DLC this route cries out for it is a shunter. Don't care which one, although obviously some kind of 0-6-0T or 0-4-0T

 

Companies House
And they changed their registered address. Their head office has been in Chatham for a while. The two don't have to be the same thing in the UK (many of the companies I work with have their accountants office as their registered address. Saves having angry people turn up at their office door demanding to see a manager.

 

There's nothing obvious about excluding the LMS diesel shunters which were at Speke, and then Crewe, alongside BR diesel D2s (TOPS 04), D3s (TOPS 08), D10s (TOPS 20).