An Absolute Beginner Trying To Play Tsw2

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Rudolf, May 18, 2022.

  1. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Watch this video. It clearly shows how much information is missing for new players. After one such experience, nobody should be surprised they never touch this again ....

     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The independent breaks don't even work? Matt shouldn't be surprised when some people don't call tsw2 a simulator. This video is exactly why that is
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2022
  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    He never cut in the MU2A. But of course that instruction should have been included,
     
  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that sometimes you enter the cab with everything set ready to go, other times not. A scenario generally prompts you what to do, but starting a timetable run doesn’t. On the German stuff it’s that wretched brake key that gets me every time, there really ought to be a toggleable help system that prompts you what to do if trying to move and you can’t. In the case of the American stuff, why not have a pop up box like Run 8 when you take over a train or even change the formation, gives you a quick button press to set everything up.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Better yet, start each run - with notice to the player - with the engine in an appropriately realistic state for the situation: in a hot-swap, just release brakes and apply power, in others require a full cold-start.

    But no service should EVER start with all brakes offline.

    I do like your idea of having a pop-up "instruction sheet."
     
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  6. The_Drunken_Engineer

    The_Drunken_Engineer Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line. If they are not including a manual with the game, a help screen should pop up saying there's a problem with the brakes, if you try and move without it being adjusted right or fully charged.
     
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  7. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think even with a manual people out there still wouldn’t read. My mums never read a manual in her life for anything. She regularly pays for items to only use 5% of features as she has a perception that manual = complex info she won’t understand.

    I think there should be prompts for users or hints that pop up that can be disabled for experienced players
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG needs to do a better job with tutorials. They don't really go into detail which can leave some players confused as to why something is happening. Case in point is what happened with the harlem line. The signal speeds were explained well however they didn't tell or advise players during the tutorial who would play with the systems off that they needed to follow the signal speeds. This led to some players having instances in which they would be going at normal speed only to then crash their train on another one that was stopped. DTG also making manuals would probably help. Sure not everyone would read it but it would be there for those who needed a little extra guidance or help on how to operate their train. If Rivet can make manuals it, there is no reason why DTG can't make manuals.
    .
    I think it would be good in instances in which a player can't move their train to have little pop ups that tell the player what do do to move their train. Something like that should simply be an option for newer players and for experienced players, those things can be disabled.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2022
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  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think part of the issue would also be that people skip tutorials then moan it’s hard or broke. Unfortunately tutorials don’t help fools or know it alls (neither do manuals or videos)
     
  10. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    At least Hyce tried playing the tutorials, but he clearly got stuck at a number of points. At a moment he will learn (he is the community manager of railroads online and a a train enthusiast), but the point I like to make is that this is not very helpful to get new players for the game.
     
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  11. PBrogaard

    PBrogaard Active Member

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    I appreciate many of Matts YouTube videos going through things like signalling systems. It’s just not the solution for this. I have also found a digital manual or two too little in depth though I prefer it like this. Your idea with the prompt is great.
    Back when they ran through one of the surveys about just this, manuals, I can’t remember how printed manuals scored compared to video or in game tutorials.
    They must have something thought through for SoS no doubt. Will be interesting. But it would not hurt improving the entire game and DLC on this issue. Even experienced players have to drive only based on the knowledge that a feature is modelled/working/intially set in an illogical way and not by a good simulation approach and UI methodology.
     
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  12. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think Sand Patch Grade always was, and still is, the most complicated DLC (as in operating the trains). Even I frequently still run into problems with SPG, despite having quite a few hours of experience in TSC and TSW.

    I never really understood why they included it in the base package. It's not like Sand Patch Grade is a particular interesting route to drive either, IMO. And combined with Bakerloo being another one-trick-pony, Köln-Aachen is the only reasonably interesting route in the base package (although admittedly, the ICE3 isn't newcomer friendly either, since you'd need LZB to reliably drive at high speeds without SPAD).

    The TSW2020 bundle of routes was a considerably more interesting selection, with more newcomer-friendly trains. I hope they update the DLC selection for the base TSW package very soon. The current one doesn't offer any routes I'd recommend a newbie.
     
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  13. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Not good enough. The game should, at any time, be able which crucial steps you forgot. I'm not talking about a guided tutorial that takes you through steps 1 to 100, but about a system that can recognize which steps you forgot and only mention those steps to you, as well as being able to point you towards the correct button you need to press.

    More consistency would be nice, but how about giving people the option to do a cold-start or a hot-swap?
     
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  14. Rob Jansen

    Rob Jansen Well-Known Member

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    Sand Patch Grade is not a DLC, same goes for the Bakerloo and Schnellfahrstrecke Köln-Aachen, they are all these the base.
    When they created the TSW2 project, they build into the main project the 3 routes instead of a DLC, so they can't ever be seperated.

    DTG does create bundles for at least the TS one with several routes, they do with the Spirit of Steam version (4 routes instead of 3) and did for the rush hour (6 routes instead of 3).
     
  15. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a matter of terminology. If they do it the same as they do it for TSC, and did with TSW2020 for any route apart SPG, these 3 'base' routes are not hard-coded within the core and can thus be uncoupled from the main game. That'd allow them to make a new bundle of routes for TSW2, and turning the current selection of routes into DLC items. I remember Matt saying they made sure that they could uncouple SPG from the base game, in the stream about Boston-Providence, which has SPG trains layered in, but could work without SPG.
     
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Back to my issue with the brake switch on some of the German locos. If you take over the train during darkness, that area of the panel isn’t even illuminated so you end up fumbling around with the mouse to try and hit the sweet spot. I’m not even sure there is a keyboard shortcut for that particular function.

    In fact one of my slight concerns about SoS having had huge problems fumbling around in the Bossman TSC 8F cab, is that it will be too dark to see what we’re doing if required to mouse over certain functions.
     
  17. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    If DTG are still targeting a broader player base, this is their best option imo. Otherwise they can focus more towards those who are into simulation and include manuals instead. I'm thinking about other certain simulators (albeit quite old now) that don't have prompts but detailed manuals, which I never bother reading.
     
  18. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that the youtuber had indeed previously played and worked out how to do it and had exaggerated the issues slightly but it does show how hard the learning curve is for TSW especially with sandpatch. And it's definitely not entry level I owned TSW2020 on Xbox and struggled with the HST tutorials on GWE (I think it was bugged as couldn't even sit down in cab from memory) also couldn't get the German train to even move so gave up and never played it.
     
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  19. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Press L to switch cab lights on. Pretty much default keybind for any loco. I doubt tutorials mention this though.
     
  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Do you not think I already tried that? The cab lighting in some of the German locos (101 as an example) does not throw any light over the area of the brake switch.
     
  21. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Stand up and use the flash light.

    Not saying it's a good solution, but it's the best available workaround with the current limitations in the software. But I agree, this is the kind of simple problems people run in to.
     
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  22. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    We've all been beginners at one stage, yet here we are.
    My first few attempts at the Dragonborn were pretty ugly.

    There are more than enough walkthroughs on YouTube for those who need more hand holding.
    And frankly I watch a play through for all routes before I purchase them.
     
  23. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    I had the exact same trouble and the exact same catastrophic encounter with those locos. Solution (that little valve behind the console) I found by searching in the forums. The guy´s right, it should be in the tutorial. Funny enough, I think it is in the expansion pack tutorial (stealth loco).
    What I don´t like in this video is his arrogant tone and negative pre-charge. Difficult to bear with until the end of the video. Gawd!
     
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  24. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I never needed a tutorial to play Euro Truck Simulator 2. And look what kind of success that game has been.

    I think people here are forgetting one doesn't need to be a train expert to like driving a train. Also, the people here at these forums are the more serious trainsimmers. I bet the majority of people playing the game know very little about trains. I've once seen a video of a couple playing TSW for the first time, and the Dosto they drove in MSB was simply refered to as "the big red train". That's the biggest part of the audience. Getting train nuts on board is easy, getting the majority of gamers aboard is a whole different story. How many people playing ETS2 are actual truck nuts? I know I'm not. I just like to drive.

    Reading walkthroughs and guides shouldn't be necessary to simply play a game. Making a game realistic doesn't mean you have to make it less accessible and need a steep learning curve.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think a major part of this is besides sheer size driving a truck is very similar to driving a car, so if you can drive one you can at least get the other moving
    With trains, especially from cold, theres a lot more to think of before you get going, and a lot more than will stop you if you don't press the right button at the right time to turn of that darn buzzing noise
     
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  26. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure ETS2 simplified a few things. Engine automatically starts, automatic gearbox in any truck, more forgiving physics so your truck won't tip over, easier simulation of the air brakes, autoparking, automatic coupling/decoupling of trailers. All optional, so any hardcore simmer can tune these settings to its own desires to create a more realistic, less forgiving, expericen.

    If safety systems are turned off by default, to make things accessible, then why isn't the stupid MU2A valve we've seen plenty of topics about an optional thing? Why does DTG protect people from overcomplicating things by turning off AWS by default (really, one of the simplest safety systems to use, and one I find that actually makes life easier for me), but apparently think it's OK that people can't get a loco started because of a silly brake valve?

    And this isn't about simulation vs. arcade. You can simulate something well and still keep things accessible. Again, I point to ETS2, a game which did a lot of things very well if you ask me.
     
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  27. bittesteigensieein

    bittesteigensieein Member

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    I think the video creator has a deliberately bad attitude and needs a slap :) I don't play the US routes, but all the tutorials I have played for the European routes are clear enough, sometimes you need to revisit them if you don't use the train often enough. E.g. the TGV took some practice.
     
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  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know...

    personally I advocate the Gran turismo style of "licensing" and for me (my opinion only) maybe have journey mode as a training mode (start with all safety systems OFF and build up to full systems and minimal HUD) and timetable as everything is ON by default (or at least how it would be in real life when the depot guys have had their way with it)
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That at least there is an answer to. The game has a universal default state for all stationary locos in the timetable; it basically is "engines running, all other systems offline." Kind of silly wrt brakes! But it makes timetabling much easier. And with US locos, it simplifies things a lot to have trailing engines ready to go without having to be set up individually.

    Only in scenarios, which are bespoke, will you enter a cab in any other condition.
     
  30. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Don't blame the messenger. he is authentic, same way of talking and joking in other videos for the game he is deeply involved into. Some of the comments are a bit sarcastic, I agree but his struggle is real. Note he cut out some of the information. I think the point is very clear. Looking forward to see any comment from DTG staff on this.
     
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  31. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree. So if you are new to the game and like US routes, this is the first thing you try. And then it seems not to work. If have some knowledge on how trains are supposed to work it may even get worse. For a beginners pack this route is not suitable in this way. There need to be far more tutorial stuff. About the same thing for Bakerloo and the ICE, only the BR442 is suitable for starting players into my opinion.

    I think they can set it up in a different way and it may be good to have a beginners pack with easy going routes and a lot more assistance and error messages if you do something that is not going to work. This guy is not the only one struggling with this game. I have helped so many people out of trouble.
     
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I always thought TS' Train Academy was a good idea. Then individual loco tutorials can concentrate on that engine's unique features.
     
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  33. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    You will never win trying to please everyone who may buy this sim/game whilst you want to sell it to as many people as possible.

    Some want a hardcore train driving simulator, where everything (except some security systems... for obvious reasons) is replicated, you need to walk the length of the engine room, turning various air valves, isolators, switches and so on to the correct positions before you can even get to beginning to set the controls in the cab up for the brake and instrument tests and so on.

    This is for a cold startup, not taking over a train from someone else where it should be all set up except for the reversing switch and brake keys being removed... with the brakes locked in the emergency position etc.

    With full joystick support that can allow every switch and lever to be operated with a home built controller, access to the data needed to allow working EBuLa and MFA screens on android tablets / second monitors (like we have in train sim classic with third party plugins)
    i.e. Zusi with great graphics.


    At the other end, some people want a train themed game, where they can watch the world go by whilst the train pretty much drives itself... but they have some input over it's speed, and where it stops... i.e. the on screen stop - go lever from train simulator classic.
    The want to spend most of the time in outside views looking at the carriages and scenery,
    So more of a train spotting / rail fan game than a train driving simulator.


    The hardcore simulator people moan it's too simple, not enough is simulated, there's no joystick support for using real / homebuilt controls to get away from having to use the keyboard or a console controller as a keyboard with limited functions available.

    The gamers complain it's too complicated, they just want to get in a train and drive it, not have to learn what switch and lever does what and why.


    TBH tho, anyone who thinks TSW2 is as complicated as driving a real train would be in for a shock, just like ETS2 and driving a real truck are vastly different, there's so many compromises made and 'automations' done in the background to keep the game/sim apeeling to the greater audience.
    Like in ETS2 the roads are wider than in real life... this is to accommodate the people who drive using a keyboard (and was questioned back in 2013 when they were writing ETS2, they did add in the ability to use homemade 18 speed gear sticks tho :)
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But he was playing the tutorials
     
  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst you have somewhat of a point, there are ways to make a simulation more accessible whilst adding more simulation aspects. That isn't impossible to do.
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They perhaps will become dlc if dtg what they do with Train Simulator and add a new batch of routes or make older routes part of the base/core if the game for new players.
     
  37. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Just a tip for dark areas - L while walking (dpad-right on controller) toggles the flashlight, use that to point to anything you need.

    ... and yes, there's much to be desired in the onboarding experience at the moment, something we're looking at closely currently.

    The problem with the Mu2a valve stems from it being added in an update to add more controls etc - but then the tutorials etc weren't checked to see how they were impacted. It's a good example of where updating content has knock on effects that need to be carefully considered and in this case they weren't properly handled and things were missed.

    Matt.
     
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