Spirit Of Steam Stream Feedback Thread... And More Importantly...

No, but why bother asking when you will not believe the answer?

 

The driver doesn’t add coal though. That’s why the fireman is there.

 

I'm really beginning to wonder now if this is actually ready for prime time.
We have the fireman issues, Matt seems to confirm the regulator and control system needs more work. We have seen references to what appear to be incomplete scenery, no lineside fencing which, contrary to what may be being said, has always been a requirement along UK railways.

Probably not the most popular course of action to suggest but I would much rather release was put back another few weeks or couple of months while the problems and QA are ironed out. You can hang on to my pre-order money but I would rather have something that's the best it can be than another Rush Hour debacle. Otherwise you run the risk of negative word of mouth and reviews on Steam which will damage the reputation of the title and maybe jeopardise the prospect for future steam routes.

 

Oh dear, this is looking like another "that'll do" release

 

I’m going to be completely honest, I am completely ignorant to how a steam locomotive works including what the various wheels and levers do in the cab. I’ve always loved the beauty and functionality of them though - ever since watching Thomas when I was little. Hoping to learn how they work through TSW 2 as time goes on. So far, I love the sound and the animation of the locomotive in game and I’m super excited to play it - certainly not something I was saying a few weeks back.

 

Oh, FFS! Some people will ALWAYS find something to complain about! Fences, is it now? The physics needing small tweaks? Jesus Mary and Joseph.

 

Did they even have fences back then? I’m sure there was no such thing as health and safety in the 50’s.

 

You know what else a driver generally doesn't do? Flip switches, couple wagons, load freight cars, or get various collectables, yet these are all things in TSW. Just because the driver doesn't do a task in real life doesn't justify completely cutting it. not when TSW already asks so much of the driver.

Besides, even if we agree that having the driver doing the firing is a problem surely completely gutting the position's still one of the worst options to pick. The most obvious solution would be to have a AI Driver take over so that the player can focus on firing the engine. TS Classic has this option for some of its recent steam locos despite how old that platform is, so I have to imagine such a thing is more than doable for TSW.

 

Surely the worst option is get it to a state where everyone's happy, and then move on to the next thing, meanwhile this route won't be released while someone works on manual firing for an indefinite amount of time.

 

Everyone's happy... Except for those who aren't, which is quite a few people in this thread, including me. Considering that even train games like Derail Valley allow you to fire the engine it's kind of insulting a full blown simulation doesn't have such a thing, even if it's only temporary. For all of DTG's talking of doing steam right this move is a massive smack in the face to that idea.

 

So, would you rather they simply not release it at all until a feature you want is ready?

 

Nah... it's been fences since SEHS

 

My reasoning is broader, I really don't think people in general are going to take SoS well if freaking Somerset and Dorset has features that a current gen steam simulation lacks.

 

i have to agree with you, because of all the nit-picking and doomsayers, I have almost stopped reading these forums, used to be a pretty decent discussion group but unfortunately, those days seem in the past. Time to bow out once again.

 

Will Steam locomotives provide Rail Tour services on ECW SEHS Cathcart Circle and in the future Brighton Main Line? Provided WCML Liverpool Crewe is owned

 

steam time

 

It has been a requirement to fence off UK railways since they were first conceived in the 1820’s, so yes it is quite right that a route set in the late 1950’s should be. Not the ungodly unsightly 10ft tall palisade fencing Network Rail and their predecessor Railtrack put up everywhere now but definitely a wooden or wire fence to mark the boundary.

I guess we can only hope there will be a few more fixes between now and release, what, 12 days from now but that in itself leaves little time for further testing. Someone mentioned dev build a few posts back, I would have thought less than two weeks away what we are seeing is pretty much what we are going to get.

 

This. It’s not like this is the first ever computer simulation of steam. If the experience can’t at least equal the default in MSTS, TSC or Trainz then many people simply won’t take it seriously.

 

I am a big fan of TSW2 however for me despite initial excitement this is a miss. The route and locos look great, the main issue for me is the quiet timetable. I can live for the time being with an automatic fireman etc however realistic timetables are essential for immersion, a key part of train driving is looking out for signals etc. DTGs quiet timetables pretty much make signals redundant as you are guaranteed a clear run due to the sparsity of traffic. Look at routes such as Dresden to Riesa and London to Brighton to see how those with a realistic timetable are much more engaging.

If DTG persist with quiet timetables they should build routes with infrastructure to match. E.g choose a more rural route where a quieter timetable would be more appropriate.

 

The “Fence-gate” in this case refers the general lack of attention to detail near the running lines noted by many, which is unfortunately the case on many TSW routes. One would expect a good level of detail on and near the track where we spend our time, diminishing with distance away from the track. However priorities seem to be towards novelties like animated cows, which we were proudly told had had much TLC from the art dept. This kind of statement just invites a facepalm and you wonder who decides such priorities. Please focus on the trackside ambience first guys!

 

Indeed, I can accept the sparse vegetation as generally at this time the lineside was kept fairly clear of trees and shrubs. But continuing to watch the stream there are large swathes particularly on the WCML section, where no fencing whatsoever can be seen and ironically this is highlighted by the lack of vegetable clutter. Makes it look like an early MSTS freeware effort in those areas.

Another area of concern having watched the train in motion is a near complete absence of track sound. Not only are there no rail joint sounds - as previously discussed long welded rail was still a rarity in the UK at this point - but I couldn’t hear much clatter over points or squeal on curves.

On the plus side visually the loco and stock is looking nice along with the smoke effects.

However I really do feel this needs another 6 to 8 weeks of work to deal with the outstanding issues and I would urge DTG to seriously consider pulling the 31st May release to give more time for s polished product. Post release should be for fixing unseen bugs and issues, not finishing off what should have been done during the development phase.

Edit: I also have to be frank and say after watching 2/3 of the stream now I stand by my earlier assessment this was a really poor first choice of route for steam. Too short, the scenery is largely flat and bland with no real gradients to tax the engine or your driving skill. Something like the S&D or even part of the Settle and Carlisle for all it’s a cliche, would have added a bit of zing. Still going to buy it but I really wanted something that was a cut above driving my Kia Sportage to Sainsburys…

 

I also play Railroads online. Nice game, even multiplay is supported a bit and some people claim it is the most realistic simulation ever seen .... If you play single player, you need to do the firing yourself, so something similar to Derail Valley. But then, if you look closer at the simulation. The reverser is just on or off, other positions do nothing. You control the whole thing with the throttle only. No dampers and all other nice steamy things. But you can lay track (much easier in a new update that is coming soon). No motion blur, very few camera views and a lot of other limitations.Scenery is essentially an bunch of mountains, some industries and a lot of trees (the standard Unreal ones), no weather system.

The point is for all these simulation games you must make trade-offs. DTG added a lot of details, Railroads Online made completely different choices. I like both games, but for very different reasons and the nicely complement each other.

So I am happy with steam in TSW, even though it is not a Dutch route and there is no shunter and we cannot create our own timetable and ....

 

Should clarify, that by "everyone's happy", I mean everyone in DTG are happy with everything about the route and consider it 'finished'.

 

I think all of DTG's routes should come flagged as 'Early Access' as the description on steam says, "not complete and may or may not change in future."

 

I do agree you and I would expect more services to be available. However, there are AI services that has been confirmed by Matt on the stream and we don't know if the current service amount is to represent the freight/passenger services that stopped between Liverpool Lime Street and Crewe back in 1958. The AI representation may have stayed on the WCML at the WCML junction or went out to Chester etc when departing Liverpool. Either way I would hope it is busier, otherwise it just makes it boring and dead, lacking general atmosphere.

I hope I've made sense.

 

Will the release date be postponed? I'm worried.

 

During the stream, the old "Southern Belle" computer game for the Commodore 64 and Spectrum computers was mentioned as being one of the first steam driving simulators for computer. A game that was released in 1985 and yet you could select select different levels of difficulty including having firing and injector (water) controls. Of course these were no "Victory Works" level of simulation, but the basic ability to add coal and water was there.

Moving 35 years forward to Spirit of Steam.......... and oh wait a minute! How is this a step forward?

If it was a question of time and resources then the first steam loco for TSW2, it should have just been a extra time table for WSR, with perhaps a few rail tour scenarios for the other UK routes included - no need to panic about getting a steam route build at the same time
The route building team could have been put to work on building something that uses existing stock.

 

At the moment no, but I am of the view it should be to properly address some of the incomplete aspects, at least bring it to the level of steam traction in MSTS/TSC:
Namely but not limited to:
Install lineside fencing and clutter along the entire route.
Bring the AI fireman up to scratch and more dynamic according to steam demand.
Implement rudimentary player firing and boiler control.
Implement decent track sounds - "clickety clack" and clatter through pointwork.
Address concerns about "instant" power rather than reflect the delay in steam chest filling or emptying.

I don't consider that a particularly onerous shopping list to deliver a product that meets or exceeds our expectations rather than a disappointing experience.

 

Railroads Online's a game about building and servicing industries, as well as co-op multiplayer, those are its priorities. Train simulation is a secondary concern, if it's even a concern at all, so it's fine if they don't have detailed simulation. Train Sim World though entirely on the operation of these machines, there's no other major focuses on building, or money management, or multiplayer which other games and simulators have to balance along with their core sim. They already have quite a few cuts made compared to the likes of Railroads Online, Derail Valley, or Trainz.

So did Digital Homicide, and they made almost literally nothing, they just put some store bought assets together on the Steam store and called it a day. And yet they were so proud of their work they were willing to sue a YouTuber over their criticisms of their work. Point being if your definition of "everyone's happy" is that the company's happy you're inviting some absolute rubbish efforts to go though. Without opposition a company will try and cut as many corners as possible, they all want to be like DH at the end of the day.

 

Can we please at least have a 0-100 % setting on the fireman, so we can tell him "how fast" to build up the pressure? I am not one of the hardcore manual firemen fans, but there seriously should be some consideration for going long downgrade stretches. People can ignore it and he will always go 100 %, so they don't run out of steam, but give us an option to regulate him to minimise the overpressure. So much wasted fuel and the fireman would probably drop dead in Liverpool from exhaustion.

 

I think it's better for them to update instead of delaying the release date.

 

Thats why i cant understand a launch without a loco dlc straight from the begin.

Matts words "..its not a hint, no plans currently for a loco dlc".

The busy riesa dresden was only possible because the 10 german routes before, which brought the locos and were usually way too empty aswell.

Dtg cant just release 5 steam engines in 1 dlc with a route. The amount of rolling stock we get is a lot. This is an initial release in a new time periode, so its getting better from now on.

Gameplay and loco dlcs are the right way to make empty routes busier.

 

Because literally everyone would be complaining that it wasn't included with the route if it was clearly ready or almost ready to launch immediately after the route was released

 

The route has plenty of gradients. I think it’s a decent mix. I’m quoting from a previous post here but it still stands: The section from Crewe to Weaver Junction is pretty flat and straight, giving an opportunity for some fast running. Once through Weaver Junction, it's a stiff climb (1:151 / 1:101) to Sutton Weaver, followed by a steep descent (mostly 1:115) through Runcorn to Ditton Junction. Then you're climbing again, not quite as steeply, as far as Wavertree Junction. After that there's the very steep descent from Edge Hill into Lime St (a proper challenge in the opposite direction, with a steam loco with a heavy load). Line speeds are high at the southern end, and lower the closer you are to Lime Street. Lots of variety, and different kinds of challenge.

How realistically the locos respond to those gradients with different loads, we will have to wait and see of course. However, I think what Matt was saying about it taking him a long time to get the hang of climbing the steep bank out of Lime St at a sensible speed without running out of steam, is promising.

Ideally there should be more steam available on some trips than others - just as was the case on the real thing, because so many factors affected it. However, I suspect that won’t be a feature. None the less, if it takes genuine skill to manage the available boiler pressure in a way which allows you to reach each station on time, that would be an added subtlety compared to driving diesel and electric traction, where you always have full power available.

For me, there was lots that was positive from the stream. There were also a few things I’m a bit worried about, but I’m going to wait until I’ve tried it before saying whether I think they’re genuine issues.

 

I doubt they had much choice in the matter. Paul Jackson's "dream" was to recreate Crewe in the steam era. The Big Boss gets whet he wants.

 

Traffic density: it seems that there is a failure of realistic comprehension here. What on earth are people expecting? There never were going to be more than two locomotives; expecting more would be absurd. And given a Jubilee and an 8F, and nothing else, there is a great deal of historical traffic for which there were only two choices: 1) use a preposterously wrong engine, or 2) leave out (possibly to be filled in later with DLC).

As was mentioned above, Riesa-Dresden and Dresden-Chemnitz are only as busy as they are because DTG could call on five years worth of German rolling stock (facilitated by the fact that DB uses the same stuff everywhere). London-Brighton is jam-packed because virtually everything on that route is Electrostar traffic (which DTG could beef up somewhat by, again, recycling existing trains).

Again: It is not possible to create a complete 1958 timetable with just two engines (unless you don't mind "laughably inaccurate")

 

Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't want to see the Jubilee or 8F on 'unrealistic' services, and from that point of view the timetable is accurate (or seems to be). But:

a) It doesn't feel like the right locomotives were chosen to include in the 'base pack'. 8F is a great choice but why didn't we have a Black Five instead of a Jubilee which would have been seen on a wider variety of services, allowing more of the timetable to be represented from the off? Additionally, I do think it would have been sensible to include a black-liveried 08 for shunting activities (just the TVL version but with the air brakes removed). 135 services able to be represented by the included locos feels far short of where it should be given that the route represents a busy main line at the height of BR.

b) Given that we are where we are, it would be very reassuring to hear from DTG that they do indeed have loco DLC planned to fill in the gaps (especially considering there's been hardly any loco DLC in the last two years) even if they can't specify what it is yet.

Ultimately all I'm looking for is some kind of indicator that it will be possible to build a fully-featured, varied timetable once loco DLC is available.

 

With regard to gradients, yes there are some as the first thing I did when the route was announced was dig out my Ian Allan profile book for a look see. But there is nothing like the sustained 1 in 60 and 1 in 50 which immediately confronts you on turning left at Bath Junction or hitting the start of the Long Drag on S&C. Especially if you have a good head of steam, little more than a ripple in your progress.

With regard to our over eager fireman, until/unless it can be fixed let’s have a toggle button on/off - “Take a rest, mate.”

 

To me it would seem a very strange choice to announce a loco add-on before the base route had even been released

 

A fair point, but I still think it would generate a reasonable amount of 'why isn't this included at release?' and I think it could possibly hurt sales in the short term as people will be waiting to find out the 'complete' timetable to buy the route and with a major project like this it's probably hoped that this will be immediate sales win.

 

Just caught up on the stream as I wasn't able to watch it in real time, my feedback:

• I am quite ignorant on steam locomotives and I don't know exactly the shape of each thing, but everything seems like a low-LOD version, as if it didn't properly load, reminds me of IoW right after release before it was fixed. For some reason the locomotive and cab look "wrong" as if they were melted. The textures on the side of the loco seem pixelated as well.
• Same goes for the cars and vehicles around the route - not that they look worse than other route, but being one of the main features at Lime Street's platform and the road being visible from the station itself I was hoping they'd be better.
• Lighting seems off, but Matt mentioned it was a bit brighter on his screen, so I'll see next week
• If you want to get rid of the "jack hammer" effect set the rear most camera as far backwards (away from the train) as it will go, and go to that camera to reset the sounds - it works with the few trains where switching between cab and exterior doesn't work. It will work if the train is long enough
• Particle effects are very good, much better than the first screenshots, the fact it reacts to obstructions really helps with immersion
• Nice to see that distant signals are fixed, that seems a pretty big problem on NTP. I'll remember to avoid that route.
• Outstanding work on the route, things like the abandoned station and generally the ambience of the route seems spot on, can't comment on how accurate it is, but it seems really good - dare I say, the best in TSW?
• Edge hill, again yet another instance of a red signal that clears after you pass the "go via point" I know it's a limitation of the dispatcher. It is still annoying, and I'll continue to point those out, particularly with systems that rely on distant signals.
• Cool to see that some wagons are fitted with brakes and some other aren't - having a working brake van would be cool in the future.
• About fitted/unfitted wagons, I hope each composition on timetable is different (or there are a few different combination) and the amount of fitted/unfitted wagons is present in the sevice description.
• Good that the train turn arounds are represented correctly in Liverpool
• Are the scoring and medals more forgiving, given the lack of speedometer, or were speed limits as "enforced" back then as they are today?
• [OT] Didn't think the pre-order discount had such a massive effect on the total revenue that in this case it would equate to a price increase
• Good to see period looking passengers
• Lime street seems decent, shame for the very basic looking road vehicles.

 

I don’t think anyone is saying that there should have been more than two locos (although Sandpatch & GWE did come with three locos). My point is that as it is there is a trade off between which “laughably inaccurate” route DTG go down, either use the wrong locos and increase the number of services or have a timetable so sparse it’s akin to a NUR strike day. Choosing a different route with prototypically less traffic or loco choice would have gone some way to resolving this issue. Alternatively, as others have suggested, choosing different locos or moving the era to the early 60s when diesel layers could be included using existing models would also have worked.

As I’d say I am a big fan of TSW, these are my personal views, I don’t expect anyone else to agree but it’s certainly not a “failure of realistic comprehension”.

 

Console.

 

Well, I know that rendering distance and such is shorter, but I've never seen that much difference in terms of locomotive level of detail, as I said, it looks like it hasn't finished loading, it's not like it has 1080p textures instead of 8k ones or something minor like that, literally no other train is like that, so console is, at best, only part of the answer. And if PC is indeed better than that's definitely not a purchase for me, and I hope for more console users because that is not acceptable.

I am aware that consoles have such limitation from what third party aircraft devs say about their work on MSFS, yet I've never seen such appalling LODs and textures on any of them.

 

Now that is a good idea for a quickie DLC they could develop and release in short order: repaint and mod the 08 - more involved than just removing the air brakes, for instance replacing the electric lamps - (or redo the physics and make a couple of tweaks to the WSR 09), together with a shunting timetable, and get it out pronto since they will eventually have to come out of the stand-down but not wait nine months to generate revenue.

 

This whole situation was quite interesting for me to learn. I've not had anything to do with TSW/TSW2 really due to the lack of steam locos but it surprised me that people prefer a route with no stock running on it to a route with stock that isn't 100% prototypical.
Personally I find it far easier to imagine that the 3rd 8F running a local stopper that just passed me in a blink at a closing speed of 120mph was a different class than having to imagine I'm surrounded by imaginary services when in reality I'm driving on an empty route that feels like it's set after a zombie apocalypse.
But it seems the masses disagree

I don't know how much work it would involve but would it be possible to have 2 options for in game timetables: 100% authentic and "fill the gaps with whatever I have"

 

For me, the main contention is that loco DLCs add services. If you give those services to the wrong type of train, there's less incentive to create the correct train (it has less value), and if it does come along, you can't tell the game only to use that type of train on those services.

It might be easier to pull off on a steam route (particularly a GWR one because they all looked the same), but the often quoted example is when they put 375s on services that should've been done with the 465 - two types of train that look, sound and behave nothing alike. Tbh it probably wouldn't be worth it when there's potential to have the correct one made a bit later down the line.

 

I’m guessing there is a parallel here with Run 8, where if you don’t own all the rather extensive collection of cars trains still appear but with the default Run 8 boxcar (or a generic loco) substituting for the missing item. It’s not pretty and a bit incongruous having a R8 liveried boxcar where a hopper or gondola should be, but better than no train at all. Also gives you an incentive to start parting with money to fill in the gaps with the proper stock!

 

It does look good, and sound good too. I do wish that there was a bit more interactivity in regards to firing the locomotive, although that's something that's probably going to be addressed in the next livestream. Steam Loco Express did a good job of simulating the fire, dividing it into squares and having each square have a colour intensity and a coal level. So you literally could pile the fire up in the middle, or around the edges, depending on the locomotive since each class fired different. Of course, doing that *and* driving would be a lot to ask so you'd probably need a simplified version for driving purposes which has already been suggested in this thread and others, but you could in theory have an option where you'd fire a service and the AI would drive it. Obviously MP would be the ultimate dream for that, but that's a pipe-dream for now.
Would also be pretty neat if you could check the oil levels on the motion gear as well, and the sanding levels since in TSW we can walk around the locomotive.
Just imagine you get assigned your locomotive and duty, walk over to it in the yard, the AI fireman is busy getting the fire ready (the locomotive itself is already in a warm state since the cleaners would have fired it up from cold earlier in the day) so you walk around the engine, clicking on the corks on the motion and topping up the oil, checking the sand boxes, maybe even having a look in the smokebox. Then when you're ready you draw out of the shed and coal up and water up, and then at your allocated time, you're off down to the station to couple up to the train.

That would be good stuff, some real PMDG/A2A levels of sim, but probably a bit too much for most TSW folk, of course that's where realism sliders could be used but, well, maybe for TSW3 or 4. We've got some good stuff coming down the line (pun intended) and this does look nice, and hopefully when the editors are released the floodgates will be opened.