Spirit Of Steam Stream Feedback Thread... And More Importantly...

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by mattwild55, May 19, 2022.

  1. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    The whole firing system will be "inactive" essentially as its all part of the same "thing". We are still looking to have a fully animated fireman though (the build i'm running right now has one but I'm on a dev build not an integrated release candidate so not sure if it's made it there yet).

    Matt.
     
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  2. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    What's the point? People won't believe them anyway so they're just wasting their breath.
     
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  3. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Well-Known Member

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    Spirit of Steam is huge - a turning point for the game, equivalent or even superior to when Train Sim World upgraded CSX: Heavy Haul
     
  4. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah nobody outside DTG makes TSC locos using the provided blueprint editor. I definitely don't ;)

    When I say "the tools" I'm obviously referring to the TSW specific requirements (simugraph, etc). I can knock you out a UE loco model, the same way anyone can model and export a TSC loco model as their proprietary igs format file with Max, Blender, etc. The magic is wiring it all up to the game.. which requires the specific tools.
     
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  5. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    TrainSim-Matt I would appreciate a comment with regards to the regulator providing instant power, as apposed to a delay from the time that the regulator is open to when you actually start to see a build up of steam in the steam chest.

    Is this something that will get ‘fixed’ at some point?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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  6. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Do you blame us?
     
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    ‘Actions speak louder than words’ is very much appropriate here and has been for as long as I can remember when it comes to DTG making promises.
     
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  8. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I'm sure we'll continue tweaking and adjusting the simulation implementation - the same as we have for all of the others up to now, definitely going to be seeing what feedback people give and try to roll some of it into the manual firing update whenever that follows.

    Matt.
     
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  9. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Can I tempt you to start making TSW Steamers then Pete? :)

    If so, you know where I am :)

    Matt.
     
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  10. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    No, but why bother asking when you will not believe the answer?
     
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  11. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    The driver doesn’t add coal though. That’s why the fireman is there.
     
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  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I'm really beginning to wonder now if this is actually ready for prime time.
    We have the fireman issues, Matt seems to confirm the regulator and control system needs more work. We have seen references to what appear to be incomplete scenery, no lineside fencing which, contrary to what may be being said, has always been a requirement along UK railways.

    Probably not the most popular course of action to suggest but I would much rather release was put back another few weeks or couple of months while the problems and QA are ironed out. You can hang on to my pre-order money but I would rather have something that's the best it can be than another Rush Hour debacle. Otherwise you run the risk of negative word of mouth and reviews on Steam which will damage the reputation of the title and maybe jeopardise the prospect for future steam routes.
     
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  13. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear, this is looking like another "that'll do" release :(
     
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  14. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I’m going to be completely honest, I am completely ignorant to how a steam locomotive works including what the various wheels and levers do in the cab. I’ve always loved the beauty and functionality of them though - ever since watching Thomas when I was little. Hoping to learn how they work through TSW 2 as time goes on. So far, I love the sound and the animation of the locomotive in game and I’m super excited to play it - certainly not something I was saying a few weeks back.
     
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  15. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the more we hear about SoS the more it sounds like the accountants are dictating the release date and DTG are about to release yet another half finished route with vague promises that X & Y will be added at a later date and Z will be fixed "shortly after release".
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Oh, FFS! Some people will ALWAYS find something to complain about! Fences, is it now? The physics needing small tweaks? Jesus Mary and Joseph.
     
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  17. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Did they even have fences back then? I’m sure there was no such thing as health and safety in the 50’s.
     
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  18. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    You know what else a driver generally doesn't do? Flip switches, couple wagons, load freight cars, or get various collectables, yet these are all things in TSW. Just because the driver doesn't do a task in real life doesn't justify completely cutting it. not when TSW already asks so much of the driver.

    Besides, even if we agree that having the driver doing the firing is a problem surely completely gutting the position's still one of the worst options to pick. The most obvious solution would be to have a AI Driver take over so that the player can focus on firing the engine. TS Classic has this option for some of its recent steam locos despite how old that platform is, so I have to imagine such a thing is more than doable for TSW.
     
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  19. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Surely the worst option is get it to a state where everyone's happy, and then move on to the next thing, meanwhile this route won't be released while someone works on manual firing for an indefinite amount of time.
     
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  20. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Everyone's happy... Except for those who aren't, which is quite a few people in this thread, including me. Considering that even train games like Derail Valley allow you to fire the engine it's kind of insulting a full blown simulation doesn't have such a thing, even if it's only temporary. For all of DTG's talking of doing steam right this move is a massive smack in the face to that idea.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    So, would you rather they simply not release it at all until a feature you want is ready?
     
  22. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Nah... it's been fences since SEHS ;)
     
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  23. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    My reasoning is broader, I really don't think people in general are going to take SoS well if freaking Somerset and Dorset has features that a current gen steam simulation lacks.
     
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  24. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    i have to agree with you, because of all the nit-picking and doomsayers, I have almost stopped reading these forums, used to be a pretty decent discussion group but unfortunately, those days seem in the past. Time to bow out once again.
     
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  25. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Will Steam locomotives provide Rail Tour services on ECW SEHS Cathcart Circle and in the future Brighton Main Line? Provided WCML Liverpool Crewe is owned
     
  26. dark-rabbit

    dark-rabbit New Member

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    steam time
     
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  27. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It has been a requirement to fence off UK railways since they were first conceived in the 1820’s, so yes it is quite right that a route set in the late 1950’s should be. Not the ungodly unsightly 10ft tall palisade fencing Network Rail and their predecessor Railtrack put up everywhere now but definitely a wooden or wire fence to mark the boundary.

    I guess we can only hope there will be a few more fixes between now and release, what, 12 days from now but that in itself leaves little time for further testing. Someone mentioned dev build a few posts back, I would have thought less than two weeks away what we are seeing is pretty much what we are going to get.
     
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  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    This. It’s not like this is the first ever computer simulation of steam. If the experience can’t at least equal the default in MSTS, TSC or Trainz then many people simply won’t take it seriously.
     
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  29. jonad6700

    jonad6700 New Member

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    I am a big fan of TSW2 however for me despite initial excitement this is a miss. The route and locos look great, the main issue for me is the quiet timetable. I can live for the time being with an automatic fireman etc however realistic timetables are essential for immersion, a key part of train driving is looking out for signals etc. DTGs quiet timetables pretty much make signals redundant as you are guaranteed a clear run due to the sparsity of traffic. Look at routes such as Dresden to Riesa and London to Brighton to see how those with a realistic timetable are much more engaging.

    If DTG persist with quiet timetables they should build routes with infrastructure to match. E.g choose a more rural route where a quieter timetable would be more appropriate.
     
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  30. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    The “Fence-gate” in this case refers the general lack of attention to detail near the running lines noted by many, which is unfortunately the case on many TSW routes. One would expect a good level of detail on and near the track where we spend our time, diminishing with distance away from the track. However priorities seem to be towards novelties like animated cows, which we were proudly told had had much TLC from the art dept. This kind of statement just invites a facepalm and you wonder who decides such priorities. Please focus on the trackside ambience first guys!
     
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  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, I can accept the sparse vegetation as generally at this time the lineside was kept fairly clear of trees and shrubs. But continuing to watch the stream there are large swathes particularly on the WCML section, where no fencing whatsoever can be seen and ironically this is highlighted by the lack of vegetable clutter. Makes it look like an early MSTS freeware effort in those areas.

    Another area of concern having watched the train in motion is a near complete absence of track sound. Not only are there no rail joint sounds - as previously discussed long welded rail was still a rarity in the UK at this point - but I couldn’t hear much clatter over points or squeal on curves.

    On the plus side visually the loco and stock is looking nice along with the smoke effects.

    However I really do feel this needs another 6 to 8 weeks of work to deal with the outstanding issues and I would urge DTG to seriously consider pulling the 31st May release to give more time for s polished product. Post release should be for fixing unseen bugs and issues, not finishing off what should have been done during the development phase.

    Edit: I also have to be frank and say after watching 2/3 of the stream now I stand by my earlier assessment this was a really poor first choice of route for steam. Too short, the scenery is largely flat and bland with no real gradients to tax the engine or your driving skill. Something like the S&D or even part of the Settle and Carlisle for all it’s a cliche, would have added a bit of zing. Still going to buy it but I really wanted something that was a cut above driving my Kia Sportage to Sainsburys…
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  32. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I also play Railroads online. Nice game, even multiplay is supported a bit and some people claim it is the most realistic simulation ever seen .... If you play single player, you need to do the firing yourself, so something similar to Derail Valley. But then, if you look closer at the simulation. The reverser is just on or off, other positions do nothing. You control the whole thing with the throttle only. No dampers and all other nice steamy things. But you can lay track (much easier in a new update that is coming soon). No motion blur, very few camera views and a lot of other limitations.Scenery is essentially an bunch of mountains, some industries and a lot of trees (the standard Unreal ones), no weather system.

    The point is for all these simulation games you must make trade-offs. DTG added a lot of details, Railroads Online made completely different choices. I like both games, but for very different reasons and the nicely complement each other.

    So I am happy with steam in TSW, even though it is not a Dutch route and there is no shunter and we cannot create our own timetable and ....
     
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  33. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Should clarify, that by "everyone's happy", I mean everyone in DTG are happy with everything about the route and consider it 'finished'.
     
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  34. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I think all of DTG's routes should come flagged as 'Early Access' as the description on steam says, "not complete and may or may not change in future."
     
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  35. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I do agree you and I would expect more services to be available. However, there are AI services that has been confirmed by Matt on the stream and we don't know if the current service amount is to represent the freight/passenger services that stopped between Liverpool Lime Street and Crewe back in 1958. The AI representation may have stayed on the WCML at the WCML junction or went out to Chester etc when departing Liverpool. Either way I would hope it is busier, otherwise it just makes it boring and dead, lacking general atmosphere.

    I hope I've made sense.
     
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  36. ggy

    ggy Member

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    Will the release date be postponed? I'm worried.
     
  37. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    During the stream, the old "Southern Belle" computer game for the Commodore 64 and Spectrum computers was mentioned as being one of the first steam driving simulators for computer. A game that was released in 1985 and yet you could select select different levels of difficulty including having firing and injector (water) controls. Of course these were no "Victory Works" level of simulation, but the basic ability to add coal and water was there.

    Moving 35 years forward to Spirit of Steam.......... and oh wait a minute! How is this a step forward?

    If it was a question of time and resources then the first steam loco for TSW2, it should have just been a extra time table for WSR, with perhaps a few rail tour scenarios for the other UK routes included - no need to panic about getting a steam route build at the same time
    The route building team could have been put to work on building something that uses existing stock.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  38. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    At the moment no, but I am of the view it should be to properly address some of the incomplete aspects, at least bring it to the level of steam traction in MSTS/TSC:
    Namely but not limited to:
    Install lineside fencing and clutter along the entire route.
    Bring the AI fireman up to scratch and more dynamic according to steam demand.
    Implement rudimentary player firing and boiler control.
    Implement decent track sounds - "clickety clack" and clatter through pointwork.
    Address concerns about "instant" power rather than reflect the delay in steam chest filling or emptying.

    I don't consider that a particularly onerous shopping list to deliver a product that meets or exceeds our expectations rather than a disappointing experience.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  39. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Railroads Online's a game about building and servicing industries, as well as co-op multiplayer, those are its priorities. Train simulation is a secondary concern, if it's even a concern at all, so it's fine if they don't have detailed simulation. Train Sim World though entirely on the operation of these machines, there's no other major focuses on building, or money management, or multiplayer which other games and simulators have to balance along with their core sim. They already have quite a few cuts made compared to the likes of Railroads Online, Derail Valley, or Trainz.
    So did Digital Homicide, and they made almost literally nothing, they just put some store bought assets together on the Steam store and called it a day. And yet they were so proud of their work they were willing to sue a YouTuber over their criticisms of their work. Point being if your definition of "everyone's happy" is that the company's happy you're inviting some absolute rubbish efforts to go though. Without opposition a company will try and cut as many corners as possible, they all want to be like DH at the end of the day.
     
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  40. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Can we please at least have a 0-100 % setting on the fireman, so we can tell him "how fast" to build up the pressure? I am not one of the hardcore manual firemen fans, but there seriously should be some consideration for going long downgrade stretches. People can ignore it and he will always go 100 %, so they don't run out of steam, but give us an option to regulate him to minimise the overpressure. So much wasted fuel and the fireman would probably drop dead in Liverpool from exhaustion.
     
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  41. ggy

    ggy Member

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    I think it's better for them to update instead of delaying the release date.
     
  42. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thats why i cant understand a launch without a loco dlc straight from the begin.

    Matts words "..its not a hint, no plans currently for a loco dlc".
    The busy riesa dresden was only possible because the 10 german routes before, which brought the locos and were usually way too empty aswell.

    Dtg cant just release 5 steam engines in 1 dlc with a route. The amount of rolling stock we get is a lot. This is an initial release in a new time periode, so its getting better from now on.

    Gameplay and loco dlcs are the right way to make empty routes busier.
     
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  43. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Because literally everyone would be complaining that it wasn't included with the route if it was clearly ready or almost ready to launch immediately after the route was released
     
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  44. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    The route has plenty of gradients. I think it’s a decent mix. I’m quoting from a previous post here but it still stands: The section from Crewe to Weaver Junction is pretty flat and straight, giving an opportunity for some fast running. Once through Weaver Junction, it's a stiff climb (1:151 / 1:101) to Sutton Weaver, followed by a steep descent (mostly 1:115) through Runcorn to Ditton Junction. Then you're climbing again, not quite as steeply, as far as Wavertree Junction. After that there's the very steep descent from Edge Hill into Lime St (a proper challenge in the opposite direction, with a steam loco with a heavy load). Line speeds are high at the southern end, and lower the closer you are to Lime Street. Lots of variety, and different kinds of challenge.

    How realistically the locos respond to those gradients with different loads, we will have to wait and see of course. However, I think what Matt was saying about it taking him a long time to get the hang of climbing the steep bank out of Lime St at a sensible speed without running out of steam, is promising.

    Ideally there should be more steam available on some trips than others - just as was the case on the real thing, because so many factors affected it. However, I suspect that won’t be a feature. None the less, if it takes genuine skill to manage the available boiler pressure in a way which allows you to reach each station on time, that would be an added subtlety compared to driving diesel and electric traction, where you always have full power available.

    For me, there was lots that was positive from the stream. There were also a few things I’m a bit worried about, but I’m going to wait until I’ve tried it before saying whether I think they’re genuine issues.
     
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I doubt they had much choice in the matter. Paul Jackson's "dream" was to recreate Crewe in the steam era. The Big Boss gets whet he wants.
     
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  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Traffic density: it seems that there is a failure of realistic comprehension here. What on earth are people expecting? There never were going to be more than two locomotives; expecting more would be absurd. And given a Jubilee and an 8F, and nothing else, there is a great deal of historical traffic for which there were only two choices: 1) use a preposterously wrong engine, or 2) leave out (possibly to be filled in later with DLC).

    As was mentioned above, Riesa-Dresden and Dresden-Chemnitz are only as busy as they are because DTG could call on five years worth of German rolling stock (facilitated by the fact that DB uses the same stuff everywhere). London-Brighton is jam-packed because virtually everything on that route is Electrostar traffic (which DTG could beef up somewhat by, again, recycling existing trains).

    Again: It is not possible to create a complete 1958 timetable with just two engines (unless you don't mind "laughably inaccurate")
     
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  47. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Im comfy with the lack of traffic - Id rather have fewer more prototypical services then see an 8F on a local pick up goods train.

    Im happy with the lack of close fencing to the trackside (if you arent I suggest you google a few railway pictures from the 1940-50's).

    The sounds seem like they will be ok on PC (allowing for the Xbox sound issues).

    Will this be a day 1 purchase for me? No, the sole issue being no manual fireman. Id rather spend my cash on a TSC route next month which will give me a better overall experience.
     
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  48. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't want to see the Jubilee or 8F on 'unrealistic' services, and from that point of view the timetable is accurate (or seems to be). But:

    a) It doesn't feel like the right locomotives were chosen to include in the 'base pack'. 8F is a great choice but why didn't we have a Black Five instead of a Jubilee which would have been seen on a wider variety of services, allowing more of the timetable to be represented from the off? Additionally, I do think it would have been sensible to include a black-liveried 08 for shunting activities (just the TVL version but with the air brakes removed). 135 services able to be represented by the included locos feels far short of where it should be given that the route represents a busy main line at the height of BR.

    b) Given that we are where we are, it would be very reassuring to hear from DTG that they do indeed have loco DLC planned to fill in the gaps (especially considering there's been hardly any loco DLC in the last two years) even if they can't specify what it is yet.

    Ultimately all I'm looking for is some kind of indicator that it will be possible to build a fully-featured, varied timetable once loco DLC is available.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    With regard to gradients, yes there are some as the first thing I did when the route was announced was dig out my Ian Allan profile book for a look see. But there is nothing like the sustained 1 in 60 and 1 in 50 which immediately confronts you on turning left at Bath Junction or hitting the start of the Long Drag on S&C. Especially if you have a good head of steam, little more than a ripple in your progress.

    With regard to our over eager fireman, until/unless it can be fixed let’s have a toggle button on/off - “Take a rest, mate.”
     
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  50. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    To me it would seem a very strange choice to announce a loco add-on before the base route had even been released
     
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