Ways To Improve The Passenger Loading/unloading Experience

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, May 22, 2022.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I have a few suggestions as to how the driving experience could be improved within TSW, which I will explain below.

    1.) Give us an in-cab driver schedule paper timetable
    For those of us who want to make less use of having to use the game UI overlay menus, make it so that we can just display the schedule, which is placed right in front of us, in the cab. The game already has this modelled (albeit it’s a blank space right now) along with a fully functional light, so it can be viewed at night.

    Sometimes all these overlay menus make it feel less immersive and realistic, as it takes you ‘out’ of the gameplay.

    Here’s what it looks like:
    upload_2022-5-22_18-39-34.png

    2.) Add a guard to assist with opening and closing doors
    What the title pretty much says, it would be so much better if there was an actual guard who operates the doors for the appropriate trains and services. Obviously this isn’t applicable to DOO services. However, it’d be nice to have this being a working feature, along with a ‘buzz-buzz’ from the guard once door operations have been completed.

    3.) Hide the loading passengers circle/wait until (time)
    Related to the above point, it’d be nice if this was hidden, as it would be down to the guard (or your own judgement when driving DOO) as to when to close the doors, as opposed to the game telling you when to close them. Departing early would be a consequence of your own actions and judgement.

    I feel like there needs to be more of a choice whether you want to play with ‘accessible/easy’ controls/gameplay or ‘realistic/hard’ gameplay, as I think DTG tries to cram everything in together and ‘thinks’ they know what’s best for us, rather than letting ourselves choice our preferred gameplay.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  2. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    This seems like a great idea. I would love to have a Guard/Conductor on my train, controlling the doors, without me having to do so. Hopefully, this also solves the issue of having all doors open at shorter platforms.

    For the schedule/hidden wait time, YES. This would be an extremely useful feature for those who like playing without the HUD, or even with the HUD if you were running late. Sometimes, it feels unrealistic to wait 1+ mins at a station when there is no one on the platform, and you are already late.
     
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  3. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Fully support the OP. In fact station dwell time could be randomised, if you're running late and everyone has boarded, let's close the doors and get the train away. Some of the German routes now actually do this - I'm always late as I drive like an old woman. Conversely you could have the occasional station overtime, a disabled passenger needing extra time or the ramp (on modern trains). Scheduled arrival and departure times should be in whole or at least half minutes. Real railway WTT's don't deal in seconds of a minute. So a station stop on a suburban train with sliding doors might be 30 seconds or one minute at the larger stations as opposed to 2 or 3 minutes for Inter City services with low density loading, but again the caveat once station duties are complete you can get underway.
     
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  4. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    A very quick edit but it would look something like this. A quick glance over to check you expected arrival and departure times.

    I mean, how hard can it be? We've had all these years to get it right. Come on DTG, time to start getting creative!

    166 schedule.png
     
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  5. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps we could see a Conductor AI in the future as there is a fireman AI role in place for the steam train.
     
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  6. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Personally for me I'd like a PDF timetable/schedule for each service which I can download and read off my tablet/2nd screen or even print out.
     
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  7. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    If DTG could give us access to the same data we have access to in Train Simulator Classic, i.e. an API that can call out the info from the sim, we could use our 2nd screens / tablets to show the 'dashboard' screens that are in most modern trains,

    Or have the driving schedule shown as a paper slip on a clipboard, or pretty much anything that will add to the immersion.

    We could make up panels with real gauges and lights that would mimic the panels on the trains 'dashboard'

    We could also get joystick support by being able to 'ask TSW2' what position a lever or switch is in, and move it to match the position of the lever or switch on our driving desk that is seen as a joystick to windows (i.e. how CobraOnes joystick interface works in TSC)


    The possibilities are endless, but to do anything like this we need to have access to the data, it's working in TSC, why not TSW2 which is all about immersion and being the latest train simulator there is.


    Below is a photo of me testing my 3D printed controls, i'm driving a train in TSC and the tablets are running TS-MFD,
    So the tablet on the left is showing the MFA screen... replicating what's seen on the left hand screen in the train,

    The tablet on the right is a working EBuLa, as TS-MFD is able to get the trains location data from the sim, the time and so on, it auto updates as you drive along.

    Levers.jpg
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If you put a guard in game people will expect an AI character, and then they'll expect that character to do things (ie check tickets when they're a passenger) and then they'll complain when the guard is on a train that doesn't (normally) have them
    I think you're opening up a pandora's box of issues for DTG with this one.

    One other point. In game you have a specific sequence for passenger stops which gives you the "track blobs" rather than a stop point. So this would need to be a core change for places that would be guard operated to give you those track markings, and of course a change to the passenger loading success point (which for some routes triggers the "green release" of the signal).
     
  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    it'd be quite nice having iPad dials in front of me rather than cigarette packet ones
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  10. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’d be more than happy even if there wasn’t a physical, visible guard. I just want someone to open/close the doors, as well as buzz-buzz at me (the driver). At least it’ll then feel like there’s ‘someone else’ doing something instead of the driver doing everything.
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy with an AI fireman who just gets on with it. Many people want the driver to also control firing... People want different things and I'm sure if they put a "guard" in place people would want to see them and see them doing what guards do
     
  12. mike.obrebski

    mike.obrebski Active Member

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    I never play with the HUD, so I have a printed out schedule, and just look at clock either in game if it's there or on my wall to time the wait times. It's consistent for each line so pretty easy.
    Funny, but I posted a suggestion about simply adding a clock into all cabs that don't have one, which was apparently controversial, with some actually arguing against it, stating that it would pressure operators to be unsafe. It was a long thread.
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Probably not though. World of subways 4 has an ai conductor but no actual character in the car that opens/closes doors. So i don't think not having a character would be a problem
     
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  14. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Like on TGV
     
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  15. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    It would make the game so much more immersive I'm sure the majority of players would love to see this on Trains that had them. Perhaps DTG could start with a non ai Character to see if they can implement it and then progress to a guard in game. Be brilliant to see especially for slam doors and didn't the 1938 stock have a guard?

    And for those that don't want it perhaps there could be a setting in the menu turning it off, but I would pay for it.
     
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  16. chessiet#4231

    chessiet#4231 Active Member

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    Further to this very good idea, particularly now that SoS has been released; is the definite need for animated station staff in period uniform.
    Particularly when the train is ready to depart, there’s certainly something missing at the moment !
    In the real world, the driver is always given the ’right away’ by the guard and the station staff. The guard being at the rear of the train and the station master or a porter standing in line of sight or earshot of the guard and the engine crew.

    When the R/A has been given the guard would wave a green flag to show that all was in order and that the train was safe/ready to leave, which in turn would be answered by the station staff who would acknowledge the guard by raising an arm; turn towards the front of the train, then blow his whistle, shout ‘right away!’ and again raise his arm to show to the engine crew that all doors were locked and that that they could now depart. An acknowledgment from the engine crew by a short toot of the locomotives whistle meant that they understood and could now proceed.

    The Station Master’s whistle and ’right away’ have been available on some TSC trains for a while and certainly enhances the overall departure experience.

    I don’t think this would be too difficult to implement in TSW2 !
    ChessieT :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2022
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  17. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    "How hard can it be?"

    This phrase alone says a lot about the OP. If you think its that easy, get a job at DTG and develop it.
     
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  18. Texanator1987

    Texanator1987 Member

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    LondonMidland has the right to ask that question. He develops a ton of enhancements and improvements (for free) that are available to us all as patches. He is one of the few members of these forums that knows what he's talking about in terms of complexity of development.
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Wow. What a ridiculous comment. Imagine telling someone from the community to get a job at DTG just for requesting something.
     
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  20. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    You are requesting something which is totally fine and then you throw this sentence out. "How hard can this be?" How rude is that?
    Is it really that hard to make a suggestion without throwing phrases out like that? Obviously not.
     
  21. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen the work Londonmidland has done with the enhancement packs for tsw routes and they have been great. I feel like if he can do something, dtg is capable of doing it as well, just a matter of if they will actually do it. I am no computer person myself, so I would never be able to do the stuff londonmidland or understand the complexity of development. I agree it is time for dtg to get creative and try out new stuff. Even work with londonmidland for this like how the skybox was implemented if possible. Without londonmidland making these suggestions and enhancement packs, tsw would just be a boring game haha.
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If it was someone that hadn't done texture application within the game I might agree, but that's not the case
    Also there are already dynamic writing and textures within the game (vehicle numbers for example) so "how hard can it be" is possibly a valid point
     
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  23. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    Here’s my tuppence
    Would love a guard sometimes, but it must be optional.
    And vice versa i would hope we could guard Ai trains.
    In Cathcart you can sort of.
    If you disable door control at the front and use the guard stuff at the back it is up to you, all that would need to change is the ai wait for the buzzer
     
  24. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Look, I, as anybody else, really much appreciate his enhancement packs and really do like them. But: Without the base game you wouldnt have something to mod and therefore, imo, there should be some kind of respect regarding the main developers and that should also show in the way you adress the developers. "How hard can that be" is just rude, especially when you are not part of the developing team. And it is not in any way a valid point of you are not an experienced developer for UE 4.

    Londonmidlands work in all honors, but he should keep phrases like that for himself.
     
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  25. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I understand your point.
     
  26. mike.obrebski

    mike.obrebski Active Member

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    It's not a matter of how difficult. It's a question of prioritizing the many features, improvements and fixes on an undoubtedly long list. I would prefer fewer new things and more complete routes, and a real editor. But that's just my opinion among hundreds.
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    New things : could take months
    More complete routes : depends on your version of complete, but again takes weeks / months per route
    Real editor : Already exists (DTG use it), but licensing issues etc etc

    Adding in a texture which reads the timetable and puts it on screen in a way already undertaken by the PIS : probably a fairly easy transition to make given the data access is already there
     
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  28. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I believe OMSI Bus Simulator does this exact thing. All buses, regardless of country, make or era, have an in cab paper display which displays the arrival/departure times for each stop.

    Now it’d be great if this would come to TSW, as it’d mean less UI ‘clutter’ whilst driving. The clock would obviously remain visible, but my arrival and departure times would be displayed on paper, in the cab.
     
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine most trains which would have had a printed itinerary would also have had some form of clock.
    Those which would not have had some form of itinerary should not have this in game
    It's about realism after all
     
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  30. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a driver would carry an itinerary with them it the train didn't have one. Maybe in like a bag or something. I could be completely wrong though
     
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  31. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    German trains have the EBuLa screen, before that every train had a shelf of thick books with every route and timetable the train could run, and the driver took out the relevant pages and clipped it to the desk... hence the reason for the clips between the row of switches and the desk light (i believe some of the books are still carried, incase the EBuLa unit malfunctions?)

    I think most German trains pre EBuLa era had a clock as one of the instruments.


    British trains, the driver was given his diagram/schedule, with his book on and book off times and station stops etc as either a handwritten or more usually, a typed out slip of paper,
    I don't think there was any official place in the cab to clip this paper to tho?

    He'd have a railway issued watch for keeping time.

    This is just what i picked up from reading books... 'a locomans log' describes the first issue of a railway company watch in the 60's i think it was, as he was on the ASLEF committee who asked for it, they wanted one with a second hand as a lot of stops were at half minutes, but had to settle for any company issued watch at first.


    Prior to this, the drivers used the station clocks, or the church or town hall clocks as they passed them.

    I believe the guard did get a watch issued to him before the drivers got them? as he had to keep a written log of the journey, times passed certain markers etc.
     
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  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    My thought was that clocks were probably more prevalent than printers "back in the day" though I guess daisy wheel printers and dot matrices have been around for several decades so an old style printout would still have been available but it's whether it was realistic.

    Not sure if the guys back then literally wrote these things down or not
     
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  33. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    back in the day, they used typewriters and carbon paper.

    i read that on the london underground, it was usually someone who had some spare time and a passion who would type up the drivers rosters/diagram/schedule.

    they had to know which stations to stop at and at what times,
     
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  34. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    This is a photo from the book 'A Locoman's Log' by Bill Alcock.

    One of his train workings slips he'd be given to carry with him in the train he was driving.
    driver workings from locomans log.jpg

    Sorry it's hard to read, it's not a great picture in the book.
     
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  35. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    That would be so cool to get a printed output like that and useful of course.

    I think it will be some time untill we get the Ai Guard but how difficult do you reckon it would be to get the buzzer sounds in the cab from the AI?
     
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It would mean that they would have to rewrite the whole passenger stop system which currently relies on the player stopping, opening the doors, having a door cycle and then closing the doors again.
    Some (older) routes rely on this process to then clear the signal states from the platform
    So not easy in that sense.
    As far as "could it be done and how would they do it?", that's a matter for conjecture but AI trains also have a door control system which could be overlaid onto player trains and there being a two second delay between "door interlock ended" and "two buzzes please" shouldn't be too difficult to implement.
    Of course this would mean all trains having an appropriate buzzer or bell sound in the cab, a button or bell to acknowledge in response etc etc so that's a consideration too
     
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  37. Conductor B

    Conductor B Well-Known Member

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    I get the feeling that adding an invisible door-operating AI conductor to American trains would be even more difficult. It would require voice audio to simulate calling the engineer on the radio.
     
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Is it a standard message or are there different ones?
    It wouldn't be too hard to simulate "Good to go" messages unless they were very specific
     
  39. Conductor B

    Conductor B Well-Known Member

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    It's typically something like "all right P092 let's depart Lakeland" or something to that effect. I suppose for purposes of the game a generic phrase could be used (e.g. "all right, let's depart the station on signal indication"). However, it would become monotonous if it were always the exact same recording. A few different ones, with variation in tone, pitch, etc. would need to be used. I'd love to have something like that, but the additional level of effort over and above a buzzer makes me think a voiced AI conductor is less likely.

    They did a really decent job, IMO, simulating appropriate radio chatter on the Sand Patch scenarios, so I don't doubt they could create the content. I just wonder how complicated it'd be compared to a buzzer sound.
     
  40. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    i know it's a different game engine, but for TSW there is the 3rd party add on RW Enhancer,

    this has a radio function, and it allows you to talk to it via your computer's mic!, using voice recognition tech you can ask for permission to pass a signal, depart a platform etc.
     
  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't think a few different messages along a theme, or even differently voiced ones is "too much work". I know in the old TSC that AP have something like thirty different brake noises which are randomly played when you brake some of their newer trains, so if they can do that there for brakes, I'm sure DTG can do something with this in cab
     
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  42. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    One thing that is still annoying me about loading/unloading of passengers is the fact that all passenger doors open and close at the same time, no random opening/closing. The only time you'd likely get opening of all doors in sync would be journey's end at a large terminus.

    This greatly reduces the immersion of old slam door stock.

    AP managed to add random door openings/closing, surely this should be something that is capable in TSW2!?!
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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