Busier Timetables Vs Authenticity: Updated Community View Regarding Sos And All Future Routes

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by cloudyskies21, May 22, 2022.

  1. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2021
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    3,407
    So, with the recent steam stream, I was slightly concerned to hear the reasoning for just 135 services on Spirit of Steam's Crewe-Liverpool - yes, I know you have to be realistic and not expect Rush Hour-style timetables for every route, but there comes a point of having an engaging route with adverse signals, immersion, varying gameplay and different timetabled services versus a potentially emptier, linear route traffic-wise.

    It was mentioned in the steam stream that the timetable is the way it is because of community feedback regarding the 375 from SEHS in relation to busier timetables vs authenticity. Firstly, SEHS has now been out for ages, so I think DTG needs a more recent viewpoint from the community (considering Rush Hour especially). This is particularly important regarding other future routes, other than just SOS. Surely I'm not the only player to personally not be a fan of quieter timetables as they get repetitive and unengaging pretty quick.

    I'm pretty certain such topics of 'busy vs authenticity' was raised in the months leading up to the Rush Hour routes, especially regarding the Southern Metro services on London Commuter. As I said in a previous post, there seems to be a lack of consistency regarding timetables and authenticity as London Commuter's timetable has Milton Keynes services (operated in real-life by rolling stock with pantographs), Southeastern services between Redhill-East Croydon, plus services in general which would be operated by ten-car 377/6s and/or /7s (and previously Class 455s), instead these are operated by 377/1s and/or /4s in TSW 2 - to me that makes the timetable busy, but is still relatively authentic. And, the above examples contradicts the reasoning for the 135 services on SOS...

    Going back to Spirit of Steam, I can't help feel that just 135 services is nowhere near enough for such a route, and the reliance of future DLC to fill the gaps - just to add, this sounds good in principle and adds new fresh gameplay to an older route, but the route has got to be somewhat busy in the first place (say for example London Commuter which is already busy, but has space for Thameslink etc).

    So, my question to the community:

    For future routes, are you a fan of busier timetables (bulked out by relatively similar rolling stock), or complete authenticity and the potential future DLC at a later date?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
    • Like Like x 11
  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Nope, stick to using locos for what they're used for
    SEHS was a case in point because the Electrostars have never run to Gravesend in regular service, but the 465s have (although the 700 would be better as that what runs IRL)
    BML is a fudge as the 377s DO run there, but maybe the slash number is wrong and the remainder of the services are diverts (375 and 43)

    Crewe Liverpool will need other stock to populate appropriately, so hopefully they bring out a pack within a decent timeframe to get the route with more services, but better that then using two locos to do everything, when they never used to
     
    • Like Like x 10
  3. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    3,955
    Couldn't agree more. I think the "discussion" Matt talked about what exactly about SEHS, with most of the community agreeing that the Class 465 should have added those services instead of subbing in place of the Class 375.

    Having said that I can see why the community can be frustrated about this approach given the lack of new rolling stock and loco DLC particularly modern British and German.

    Fingers crossed there are more steam locos coming not too far in the future.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2022
    Messages:
    4,357
    Likes Received:
    7,253
    100% agree
     
  5. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2021
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,719
    Recently, Tees Valley's 101 loco included an inauthentic three-car version. Complaints followed, so it was removed in favor of the more authentic two-car version. Complaints followed, so DTG found a compromise by restoring the three-car as a livery option, so both versions were available. And complaints followed.

    DTG does listen, but there often comes a point where they have to throw their hands up and follow their own best judgment.
     
    • Like Like x 21
  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Whilst DTG totally cannot win and you can't please anyone most of the time (at least on the internet it seems) at least they were all 101s, but if they decided to use a 101 for intercity services I'm sure people would be peeved, so using the 8f or Princess for shunting or light freight (for example) would probably set more people to "under the bridge" reactions
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,921
    Well we definitely need a mixed traffic loco and an example of whatever was used for shunting the goods yards and stock sidings. Someone posted the other day that the 4MT etc tank locos were not that common in the area, so it does beg the question what *was* used on these duties? No one seems to know and no-one (myself included) seems prepared to spend £30 on the ancient SIAM traffic control game to try and find out!
     
  8. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    1,965
    Put me in the authenticity camp.

    Take the 465 for example. The 375 can run it's services in the base SEHS route so if someone purchase the 465, they're getting some scenarios and the unit and no new services as they're already in. It sort of lowers the hype value of the DLC as a result, especially if you had already completed all of those services before that DLC released.

    As for Spirit of Steam, I'm fine with it being 135 services at launch considering the work that has gone into that project as a whole. I do however, hope that an extra locomotive for the route is the first locomotive pack announced when DTG start doing loco DLC packs again. I'd like to see a 4MT tank, pictured below in Lime Street.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,921
    135 sounds a lot but don't forget that probably includes short ECS moves at Lime Street to and from Edge Hill, similar light engine movements plus the trains to Chester and Manchester which go off stage very quickly.

    One other thing to consider for this time period is that relief trains were very common, particularly on Friday evenings in the Down direction or approaching/after public holiday periods. This was an era before the accountants took over the railway and there was a surplus of rolling stock and locos which could be pressed into service at busy times. You also had the boat trains to and from Liverpool Riverside which sadly DTG elected not to include but would have provided a fascinating alternative than just running to/from Lime Street. I suspect there were also through trains to/from Southport and the Grand National would bring forth many extra trains to/from Aintree.
     
  10. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Messages:
    3,176
    Likes Received:
    9,155
    Yeah I too think authenticity is Key for layers, at least when it comes to regular services.

    Sure, it’s not great when we have very limited rolling stock, along with releases regularly having recycled stock, aswell as no loco DLC, but I do agree with the logic. We just need to see some action.

    Now with steam development out of the way, maybe we can bring the trains back to TSW.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2020
    Messages:
    541
    Likes Received:
    964
    I know I'm in the minority here but I'd 100% go for the fuller timetable here as long as it's somehow possible with existing rolling stock - like it was done in SEHS or could be done in SOS using the class 08.
    The empty yards and stations on some routes are quite massive immersion breakers for me and for example the main reason I didn't buy HHL or why I'm still struggling with SOS... I didn't hesitate buying the 465 back then because I enjoyed SEHS that much... and given the frequency of loco DLC releases I'd prefer buying SOS now instead of 2025 if more variety would make it into release until then...
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    3,934
    Plus, when the 465 released, it was devalued because its services were already in the game, so it could only substitute, ergo the only reason to get the 465, really, is if you want more variety.

    If they included 8Fs doing yard work, they then have no reason to make a little tank engine because all its jobs are already done with the 8F. I don't think people's attitudes to this have changed since the Southeastern debacle.

    OP - you mention 377/4s running services they don't in reality (it's a 377 so doesn't matter too much), how would you feel if they also used 377/4s on Thameslink services? This would be a more appropriate argument as it's a completely different type of train.
     
  13. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    6,475
    Likes Received:
    17,337
    It would help if DTG knew whether a loco DLC was coming when they develop the route. That way they can make an informed choice. That’s why the SEHS decision was the wrong one because they knew the 465 was coming so the services should have been left out. They would have been if people hadn’t complained about how little traffic there would be even though the players also knew there was a loco DLC on the way at the time. I’m a little on the fence with this at the moment because I like to get new services when I get a loco DLC but I also like having the choice not to get it if those services are already there with a different train.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  14. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    3,934
    I think when they plan routes they also look at what loco DLCs could potentially be made, even if they decide just to make the route and not any additional locos, they should still plan gaps for a future loco should they change their mind, IMO.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    3,502
    Likes Received:
    7,692
    I really really hate none prototypical services to pad a timetable out, so for me the current approach by DTG is the correct one.

    Im praying that DTG don't bow to public pressure and amend the timetable prior to release or even worst still, throw in some BR blue loco layers like what they made Rivet do with WCL.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  16. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    3,502
    Likes Received:
    7,692
    https://pcrail.co.uk/index.php?pts=download&code=CE

    PC Rail do a Crewe 1950's signalling sim which has a free limited demo version, but you still have visibility over all the services.

    From a quick glance at the services we've got Stanier Black 5's 4-6-0s on parcels, Midland 3F Tanks on empty coaching stock on just a couple of Liverpool Crewe services Ive found out of the 311 services included in the timetable.

    Off subject slightly, I own a few of these and the free demo versions are substanial enough to know if you are going to enjoy the route enough to warrant the cost.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    11,729
    Likes Received:
    17,939
    Is the 135 services number being bandied about only playable services, or includes AI-only as well? Could be a significant difference in terms of traffic density.
     
  18. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2022
    Messages:
    4,357
    Likes Received:
    7,253
    I'm pretty sure it's player services.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Proto-step-by-step-typical pls
     
  20. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2018
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    839
    I agree this discussion needs to be had again. I would much prefer a busy route, even if the stock is not 100% authentetic but future loco DLC being subbed in later, as we know how long it takes for loco DLC to be made and how unproffitable they can be. Obviously I dont want anything drastically crazy, but if we going to have an empy route for more than a year I'd rather have more to do.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
    • Like Like x 3
  21. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,415
    Likes Received:
    3,746
    Padding a timetable with services with inappropriate traction should be verboten. Layer in the services once the appropriate traction and rolling stock becomes available. That is my favored approach… of course that means one needs to be patient, a characteristic that seems to be in short supply for many these days.
     
    • Like Like x 15
  22. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    769
    Likes Received:
    1,599
    For me it depends on exactly how inauthentic the stock in question is.

    So, for example, having the 101 on GWE Diesel Legends is OK. Of course, it would be better if it were a 117, but a 101 is definitely better than having no stopping services at all, because it is fairly similar in appearance to the correct stock, and very similar to drive.

    On the other hand, for me, Liverpool-Crewe would not be improved by seeing Jubilees running around on 3-coach stopping trains. The appearance would just jar too much, and it would be worse than having empty stations.

    I think the thing which would really help (mentioned on another thread) is having the ability to choose whether to have certain layers activated - and, better still, the ability to build your own layers into the timetable.

    So for me, while we have insufficient steam locos, I'd rather have some diesels in Liverpool-Crewe - such as 101s (in green of course) - rather than having no stopping services in it. But I know others would dislike that, so I don't want to inflict it on them. I'd like players to have the option.

    It's one of those things which sounds as if it would be simple compared to some other things which get requested, but maybe it's much more complicated than it sounds!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,921
    Eeek. I just tried the demo for 5 minutes and that is fiendish. Can't imagine how complex the full version gets later in the day!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,488
    Likes Received:
    3,270
    For me the atmosphere of the route counts. As long as it looks more or less authentic it is OK to replace trains. For SoS probably the Class 08 would be OK for me to see in the yards. To be honest, I have no idea if it existed in1958 (I was 4 years old the and at that age I never had been in the UK).

    it is nearly impossible to represent a specific year complete authentic. So who cares? Mabe make authenticity a setting with different levels, so as a player you can remove anything that is not authentic. Also I really do not care about the 2/3 car class 101 issue. Why would I?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  25. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    1,498
    I can bet the reason for some wanting a busier timetable, even if it's not authentic, is because of London Commuter, which has already pushed TSW to its limits with how many services can be put onto a single route. And may will never have any other routes topping it after that, ever.

    But for SoS, I rather have the timetable the way it's supposed to be. It's already been said from the stream that the Jubilee is already gonna be doing both expresses and locals, which is still alot for just one loco alone that is designed for mainline services. And I'm glade for the 8F isn't touched on for other services that isn't for long-hauls either. That I'll let a smaller steamy to do that job, be it another tender or a tank engine.

    So I'll wait patiently for a DLC to happen in the future, it's better than the alternative where other locos (ex. Diesels) would sub in or be layered that doesn't fit the time period accurately (like the 08 from TVL or GWB), even if it's not perfect.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  26. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    3,934
    The 08 started being built in 1952, and they stopped building them in 1962.
     
  27. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2021
    Messages:
    3,502
    Likes Received:
    7,692
    There's some real hard ones, some are actually impossible to keep 100% time on.
     
  28. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    3,934
    I remember some people complaining about Cornwall's lack of services, specifically because it was releasing after London Commuter - IIRC someone said WCL was insultingly quiet (even after being shown a real timetable from the time - I think it was this kind of comment that lead to NTP being layered in). I don't know why people were seemingly expecting thousands, or even hundreds, of services out of a single or dual track rural main line, with a rural branch line.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Joethefish

    Joethefish Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    Sorry for off-topic but I was wondering if you could list the yards that are empty? I expect Wandsbek to be one of them, any others?
     
  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    I don't want to see another 101 on this route, neither do I want to see an sd44 in for traffic . I'd prefer to wait for a dlc logo and perhaps buy SOS as a bundle. The quietness is making my wallets derrière pucker closed a bit more. Could be a 5th route I pass as much as I want to give steam a go
     
    • Like Like x 1
  31. JellyScrub

    JellyScrub Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2021
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    173
    I'd prefer having a DLC to pad out the services, provided DLC actually gets made. Everyone talks about it not being authentic to have additional services, but isn't also not authentic if no DLC is ever released and the route stays quiet?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2021
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    3,734
    Less services because accuracy reasons is ok for me, but "Currently no Plans for a loco dlc....". Well as somebody mentioned, this could end in bad sales because people either think the dlc should be included in the sos pack, or wont buy it because they are not spending money on 2 dlcs.

    It fact would really surprise me if dtg puts so much effort in a route, basic stock and research and indeed have no plans for loco addons to increase the services.
    My guess is, they go in with the manual fireman update and 2 loco dlcs for christmas.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,921
    Yes I hope this is just a bit of redirect on DTG’s part. As much as I find the route itself a bit underwhelming it should at a minimum get a Black Five and some sort of tank loco. They also need to have someone frantically working on a “Steam Legends” all day timetable for NTP. Or stop sitting on their hands and give us full access to the timetable and consist builder so we logistics types can start compiling our own timetables.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  34. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,488
    Likes Received:
    3,270
    So this would fit. If we cannot get a Jinty (or whatever is relevant) this would be a nice addition, at least for me.

    Maybe make it a separate DLC, then people can skip it if they don't like it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  35. peterchambers

    peterchambers Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    149
    From memory, at Edgehill there were one or two, depending on demand, coaches attached/detached from/to the Euston-Lime Street trains. I remember them mainly being a one coach service uitlising a suitably small steamer.
     
  36. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2020
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    1,586
    What confused me was the choice of locomotives. Normally they are pretty good at choosing locomotives which are good for a whole variety of services.

    They are lovely and I’m pleased to see them but the steam engines included give timetable creators very little flexibility. The jubilee is basically an express engine and the 8f basically heavy freight.

    Something like a stanier black 5, almost identical in appearance to a jubilee, but could be used on all types of services as it was very much mixed traffic. It could also be found all over the country meaning it’s ideal for layers on future routes.
    Then they could of added a smaller locomotive, maybe a tank engine which could of handled local services, small freights and shunting. Some have mentioned a 4MT tank which would be ideal.

    However I don’t know what they’ve planned for the future and it may be part of some master plan.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  37. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,921
    I can see they probably wanted the Jubilee to coincide with upcoming UK events but agree the 8F was a strange choice for the second loco.

    In GWR terms, would have been a bit like choosing a Castle (or King) then a 28xx 2-8-0 freight loco, rather than a Hall which could fill in on all sorts of services.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    4,369
    Likes Received:
    7,214
    Maybe the locos are only a strange choice because we don't know the future loco and stock dlc?

    Seeing the comments about the loco choice this would probably be a time where DTG show their hand on upcoming DLC so people can get a feel for how route will grow (or moan again that it wouldn't be their choice).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    10,832
    Likes Received:
    10,482
    Maybe they HAVE shown their hand, there's nothing in development right now and people are getting the wrong end of a stick that doesn't exist... (wouldn't be the first time)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  40. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,679
    Likes Received:
    13,792
    Can confirm the timetable is NOT changing from what you've seen. That'll make some of you happy and some of you not, but it is what it is.

    The service count listed above is for playable services, which include loco moves, full line runs, and also part runs such as the liverpool manchester ones as far as Edge Hill and the Chester runs to Runcorn etc.

    Matt.
     
    • Like Like x 12
  41. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,679
    Likes Received:
    13,792
    Update: I mean not changing for RELEASE. Whether it's changed in the future or not is for the future to reveal, just to be clear.
     
    • Like Like x 9
  42. simontreanor81

    simontreanor81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2020
    Messages:
    640
    Likes Received:
    1,182
    I don't mind a bit of fiction if it pads out the timetables, as long as a) it's within reason and b) it's replacable when something more apt comes up.

    I'm glad of the extra layers in West Cornwall, London to Brighton etc, and would like to see this done more. With German routes you get this it might not be the exact type of ICE, or IC, or unit that's being used, but it's representative, and gives you a chance to run - and see - all of the types of services on the route, and that's what's important, that's what makes a route appealing and long-lasting. The types of scenarios and repaints people add to creators' club bears this out: leaving aside the Off the Rails stuff, there's clearly a lot of people thinking "if I repaint this, I can add something to Tees Valley", or "now I can run an Intercity on Rhein-Ruhr Osten". Sometimes that's 100% accurate, sometimes it's just close, but to me, it's just what you do with train simulators, you adapt until the range of rolling stock increases.

    With German routes we're fortunate in that there's a depth of rolling stock that can be used anywhere. I'd suggest that DTG make a generic stock pack for the UK - perhaps as a core part of their next major release - i.e. a few trains that can look at home across different UK routes and eras, both current addons and addons to come. Train Simulator Classic has something like this and it gives a solid foundation.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  43. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2018
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    910
    Might be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like this wouldn't be an issue if DTG invested in non-drivable 3D models/ai traffic. And there's an argument for and against this.

    The positives

    Realistically, it will take Dovetail years to build up a solid rolling-stock base. And especially if Dovetail start covering time-periods or areas where none of required playable/service stock have been modelled yet. What this means is we could be looking at near a decade before we get the variety of content that TSC has. And there's no guarantee that DTG would go back and "enhance" a route with new AI as the DLC roster grows. Overall, whilst ambitious... it's a poor design choice.

    Example : How much of a benefit would it be for DTG to go back and lace in electrostars, 350s, 390s and 66s for the WCML portion of Bakerloo? That route is now likely confined to its current design.

    If I had it my way, the full timetable would be laid out, with the ability to classify the service by available stock and consist. This way, DTG could work asynchronously with a separate team, dedicated to producing these cheaper train models. Once they were finished and added in-game, services would automatically populate based on their classifications.

    Non-driveable stock could potentially be less taxing, as their physics set-up would be basic, and have a significantly lower poly-count/draw calls than drivable stock.

    The negatives

    - The full timetable would have to be laid-out and tested in advance (likely with dummy models). Not only could this lengthen development times, but you also need "Joe" levels of mastery on the TT every single DLC

    - Dependent on DTG, but there is still a cost incurred (polycount and development time) for those AI models. Having several variations of locomotives/units could also have an impact on vram budget

    - Would have to be rigorously playtest to stress-test the timetable and its impact on performance at full capacity.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    5,565
    Likes Received:
    11,443
    For me, unrealistic layers ruin a route, hence the layers being the main reason why I didn't purchase WCL.

    I would rather less services with spaces for future DLC, it might seem petty to some, but I want to recreate as realistically as possible, the railway as it was. I want to feel I am back in the north west in 1958, or indeed in Cornwall in 1995, not some never existing utopian West Cornwall network where 1990's DMU's are joined by the ghosts of BR's northern operations from the 1980's. Many don't care and just want to enjoy driving trains which is of course fine but some of us are borish pedants when it comes to what they want from a train simulator!

    DTG has the problem in that it might only be able to satisfy one party not the other, certainly until if/when there becomes a point where layers are selectable.

    I would say though, that I think a backdated class 08 would have been perfectly acceptable as they were certainly very much in existance in 1958. They could be supplanted or supplemented by a steam shunter (Jinty) add-on in the future.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  45. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    853
    I love a busy timetable. London-Brighton is great.

    But I vote for realism and space to add services, locomotives/rolling stock, and layering. I also think DTG needs to be more forthright with their plans/hopes if they go this route. “We have no clue” is not a sufficient answer; I get that loco DLC is dependent on how well the route sells in the first place, and they don’t want to commit to something before they know for certain if it will happen. But “our hope is to add [insert stock] if there is enough demand for it” makes a route purchase much more enticing (especially if the additional content releases alongside fixes or updates for the host route) than “the route has a sparse timetable and it is what it is, take it or leave it.”
     
    • Like Like x 3
  46. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    11,907
    Likes Received:
    23,921
    Come on Matt, you know you want to! I still remember those activities on Thames Mersey too, which had you working a through service from Southport to Euston.

    http://disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_riverside/index.shtml
     
  47. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,753
    Likes Received:
    3,485
    I vote busier over prototypical, within some limits:

    I'm fine with minor anachronisms- if a route is set in 1962 and some loco that comes out in 1964 is added, that's fine with me. If they add a 2004 loco, that wouldn't be OK.

    I'm ok with AI-only services to bulk out the timetable (see BML).

    I'm ok with using the "wrong" train, depending on how "wrong" it is, but obviously this is very subjective.

    I feel like the, "we're saving space for future loco DLC", line is wearing thin since loco DLC has all but disappeared.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  48. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    687
    Likes Received:
    2,711
    Other than adding loco DLC, the cleanest solution feels like it would be to add a Layer Filter option to switch optional layers on and off with a tick box in the menu. This would potentially attract some folk back to WCL who had been put off by the unrealistic Class 45s etc.

    I do think that the loco choice for base routes should be really carefully considered with regards to the timetable in the future though, particularly where few appropriate existing routes are available to layer in - as I've said elsewhere I think a Black Five and 8F would have made far more sense than the Jubilee for SoS, with the latter as loco DLC.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  49. Kangaroo Conductor

    Kangaroo Conductor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2022
    Messages:
    339
    Likes Received:
    589
    Given that if the wrong train is on the timetable and the correct one later being added as loco dlc then would need either a new timetable or changed one, no. The less work they have the better for the future of the game.

    Just give me loco dlc already, damnit. The locos I enjoy the most are almost entirely dlc locos.
     
  50. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    687
    Likes Received:
    2,711
    Also: having a function where a more appropriate locomotive can completely replace a less appropriate loco if available (a priority system if you like, rather than just the existing chance system) would allow local services to be run by Jubilees now but replaced by 4MT / 5MT or whatever else when (if) they eventually release.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page