Semi-auto Fireman

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Monder, May 23, 2022.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    First I would like to mention I am not one of the super hardcore fans of the manual fireman, it should be there, but the loco was controlled by two people for a reason. That being said I definitely understand the demand for it.

    What we get with SoS is a completely automatic fireman that is constantly chugging in coal and keeping a lot of water to have a maximal steam build up. This probably helps inexperienced players get through the grades without much trouble, but running downhill, even sometimes on a flat surface or staying in the station means the pressure WILL reach maximum and safety valves with start loudly blasting. IRL the fireman whatever magic he'd use would take the route into consideration and add less in these situations.

    While this "automatic fireman" should definitely do that, I guess that would require him to have a brain.

    I therefore would like for DTG to do a relatively small addition - control the intensity of steam buildup. Let us set the fireman between 0-100 %, 100 being max buildup, 0 being no buildup. Simple control gives us an option to significantly reduce or even completely avoid safety releases, while easily making the controls a lot more prototypical. Ideally, these decisions would also have some momentum on the steam buildup, but that sounds undoable currently if nothing for that has been built yet. The default being set to 100 % means people can ignore it if they want and the ride will be as easy (and ear unpleasant) as now. While it is a bit of a workaround, it definitely would help this really bad factor of the route. The steam seems great, the sounds are great, and the route is fine, but every downhill run being overwhelmed by safety valve sound is really annoying and might keep players from returning to the route.
     
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  2. Suomen surkein junakuski

    Suomen surkein junakuski Well-Known Member

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    100% agreed. A big part of the challenge of driving a steam locomotive is to do it as efficiently as possible. This is not possible if the fireman is constantly wasting steam by adding too much pressure. This is a thing that definitely needs to be solved in some way.
     
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  3. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Full agreement

    PS Or some interactive menu like the one for the dispatcher
    - Rest yourself, drink something or go hell, Jester! :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2022
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  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I suggested something broadly on these lines in one of the other threads, in the absence of the intelligent from AI or the ability to manually fire, give us an on/off toggle.
     
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  5. peterchambers

    peterchambers Active Member

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    brilliant suggestion, Oldvern, that would make a considerable difference. There are times IRL whereby the fireman does turn himself off, so to speak
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
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  6. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    I agree with this 100%! I was thinking about this quite a bit, and I think the best way for them to implement this would be to either;

    a) If there is a lever or valve or something in the cab that currently isn’t interactive for whatever reason, make it adjustable for the auto fireman

    or

    b) put an interactive spot on the boiler plug just above the firebox door or somewhere on the locomotive where when you hover over it, you can set where you want the fireman to be from 0 to 100 as the OP suggested.

    I think this could be a nice way to make it that one can easily adjust how much pressure we get.

    Not only would this stop the fireman from constantly aiming to blow off the safeties all the time, it can as well be used to create a challenge of your own, as you have some control over the pressure.
     
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  7. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I have no idea about steam trains, but there's something about this that doesn't quite fit.

    Almost 17 months ago we were told that steam was in development and that first article reflected above all that DTG wanted to reflect the difficulty of driving one of these machines so that it would be a very different experience from other types of more modern traction:
    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/bringing-steam-to-tsw2

    During all these months they have also told us how complex this project was and all the difficulties involved, implying that it has absorbed most of the development resources, even penalising other areas.

    And watching the broadcast the other day, I didn't see the complexity in driving much beyond accelerating and braking like in an EMU. I didn't see that difficulty at any point. Maybe I was expecting a slightly more revolutionary experience, or I had raised other expectations.

    Maybe it will get a bit more complex as they release updates? Because it doesn't seem like the challenge I had imagined reading that far back article from early 2021.

    If the OP's request helps to increase the difficulty I fully support it. I would like steam to be a new experience that involves a different challenge.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    "Go have something in the buffet c- nevermind" :D
    Wouldn't say it necessarily increases difficulty but gives us an option to drive a LOT more prototypically and save ourselves from a neverending sound of safety valves.
     
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  9. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    I remember in TSC, we control the firebox and the water seperately. So likely something like that here would make sense. Obviously they can be tied to opening the furnace door and the water pipe valve, again from TSC. But Matt said it is coming. So they are probably just ironing out kinks in whatever the solution they have now.
     
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  10. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Matt stated they are working on getting firing to work correctly, injectors in particular are tricky devices to simulate properly and many steamers in TSC never attempted to accurately depict them. Locomotives from Smokebox and victory works are the best examples of getting the process near to reality. Matt expanded on the firing stating getting those to be correctly implemented in SemuGraph is a challenge.

    I, for one, am looking forward to the release of Spirit of Steam with the automated fireman while waiting for the future release of manual firing. Nothing is more satisfying in TSC than running UP’s FEF -3 and open the feed water and steam injector pressure to the right values to lift the injectors and start filling the thirsty boiler without killing your pressure on the long uphill slog on Sherman Hill.

    edited for fat finger syndrome
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A great deal of the development complexity is under the hood, not at the controls. Getting Simugraph to reproduce an entire steam cycle would not have been easy at all; and as far as I can tell the business of driving the train is the same in the sim as it was (is) in real life.
     
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  12. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course solicitr . I don't doubt the effort DTG has made here and I'm going to reward it by buying SOS on release day because I think it's fabulous.

    Possibly it's my fault. This is the first train simulator I've ever tried in my life, and I'm no rail expert either, so I was expecting a very different experience to driving a more modern train, beyond a very different aesthetic or sound. And maybe it is, when I get it I'll know. But what I saw the other day didn't seem to me to be a challenge that involves something that to me seems as complex as driving such a fantastic machine as a steam locomotive. I remember when in the first article I read things like:
    "The most challenging aspect of simulating a steam engine is the skill involved in their management. It takes the partnership between the driver and fireman on the footplate, finesse and experience to really master the craft. Whether uphill or downhill, accelerating or braking, knowing the train you're operating and the characteristics of your formation takes significant expertise."
    Or:
    It's a living thing. Modern diesels and electrics come with more self-management systems allowing you to tell them what you want them to do, but with steam you're in control of how you want them to do it.
    "Exactly. A sensible analogy would be that driving modern traction is like driving a car, whereas steam would be like riding a horse. Essentially the horse can shy at the slightest thing, it has its own needs, it will try to eat and drink while you're trying to go forwards."

    It made me imagine that it would involve more complex procedures than what I saw in the stream.
     
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  13. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    I noticed in the stream that Matt had blower first level and damper fully on all the time - the damper should have reduced steam generation to at least some extent - in those circumstances. safety should not be blowing off so much, especially when running.
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Also, it didn't appear to me that Matt was altering the regulator setting at all, although I might have missed it. Unlike a modern reverser, the regulator wasn't binary all ahead/all astern.
     
  15. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    The damper will do the exact opposite if I’m not mistaken. South African steam locomotives don’t have dampers, so I’m not 100% clued up on them.

    The damper, from what I understand, is a flap in the ash pan that, if you open it, it allows more air to flow through the fire, hence a fire that burns better (hotter), and so steam generation will go up.
     
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  16. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    Spot on.
     
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  17. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly - and I assume the in-game icon was indicating the damper fully closed, which means steam generation is even more inaccurate. if the icon was indicating fully open, then maybe a repeat with damper closed might be useful. The manual (hoh, hoh) would clarify that.
     
  18. in_04

    in_04 New Member

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    If you watch the video you will see that both dampers are fully opened, Blower was set to 24%

    The second short start up run, after the service finished, was made with dampers closed and blower at 0%
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2022
  19. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Today's stream started with a shunting service and sadly I have to say it proves my point more than well - it was nearly half an hour (prior to a SPAD) of constant safety valve on, because you don't use steam fast enough when shunting compared to fireman build up.

    I really like the overall SoS feeling, but I already know I will quickly get annoyed driving it if this happens all the time. Shunting seems like a nightmare without any sort of regulation. Give us at least something very primitive to minimise this, please...
     
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  20. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    There is a tad bit of semi-auto i think
     
  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I haven't watched the stream yet but have to say this is shaping up more and more as an early access level title, whether it's the incomplete route or the shameful unfinished state of the steam engine simulation. I take it there was little or no repentance shown during the stream or any indication this will get pulled for a few weeks to get the product in a better state?

    Having originally been prepared to extend a little latitude, I am now seriously considering cancelling my pre-order and putting the money towards something from TSC - maybe the Bossman Jubilee and/or the 8F particularly if there is a flash sale in the next few days. SoS can then wait until it hits the bargain basement at Christmas (if not before) and even then only if it shows some improvement over what appears to be on offer.
     
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  22. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    The route in general looks much better on the PC, and there is manual firing of sorts. Maybe reserve the criticism for until you've actually seen it?
     
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  23. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Ive changed from a definately no to release purchase to a possible. The early reviews on release is going to be the deciding factor now, had there been a carrot (pre release discount) Id be very likely to have purchased tonight
     
  24. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well I guess I get 1hr and 59 minutes to try...

    Are you saying things seemed better in the stream this evening?
     
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  25. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    They showed some level of fireman control eventually, but it seemed fairly vague and with no real way for you to check (e.g. you "can" control the firebox by opening it or closing and therefore the fireman chugging in coal or not, but there's no indicator on coal level or temperature)
     
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  26. PBrogaard

    PBrogaard Active Member

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    Much better, I felt the same as redrev from the first stream, this one changed my mind, they're on track. Enough for me to buy on release. Steam pressure management not entirely there yet, which is sad, but I believe they mentioned it is on the list? Very pleased other than that. I'm positive.
     
  27. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    The draw distance issue that people were highlighting isn't there, and there seems to be a little more detail in the close-ups (not expecting loads of bushes and trees near the line, but it looks more grassy to me), I think it's because it's on PC, although they didn't show the full route. It still feels a bit on the quiet side (to be expected really). Can't really comment on the physics etc though - I'll leave that for others to moan about.
    upload_2022-5-24_21-45-16.png
    upload_2022-5-24_21-45-33.png
    upload_2022-5-24_21-47-6.png

    Overall, feeling more positive about it. Might still hang fire for a loco DLC but I may bite the bullet anyway.
     
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  28. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    I didn’t quite understand it either, they were extremely vague as to how this effects pressure. I’m hoping that if you leave the firebox door shut for a while, eventually the steam pressure will go down as the fire dies down a bit….guess we will have to wait and see till next Tuesday to find out ourselves.
     
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  29. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't work this out either, on the previous stream they said it was an auto fireman only and then on tonight's stream they show a manual option. I just wonder if this is purely an animation setting. i.e. when set on manual, opening the doors trigger the animation but has no effect on the actual loco?
     
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  30. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I wondered if its been hastily added after last weeks outrage as some sort of compromise.
     
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  31. Stueyboy43

    Stueyboy43 Member

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    I really want this route, but have decided not to purchase until the pressure and constant safety valve issue is sorted. I want to hear these locos nice and loud, but with the safety valve on far too often the volume would need to be really low, as on the stream.

    With the shunting around the yard the noise was so off putting and for me wrecked the whole experience.

    Shame
     
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  32. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The top irony was you could barely hear even the talk over it. They lowered the volume twice and it was still obstructing the conversation.
     
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  33. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Let me clarify how things are going to be for release - some of the confusion is that the exact level we'll be able to achieve for release was unclear precisely even last thursday. We're here now, it is what it is, so let me explain it.

    In "manual" fireman, you have full control over blower and front/rear dampers as you wish. Opening the dampers has a big impact on steam generation. When I ran the first stream, I left them wide open so it wouldn't run out of steam but using the xbox controller they're a bit of a pain to interact with so I left them open, hence, total waste of steam (similarly why I probably didnt use them another time). You are also in control of telling the fireman when to start firing - open the door all the way and it will cause them to start. You can open it partially without causing it however, and this will allow you to benefit from secondary air draught. The flap also works.

    In "semi automatic" fireman, you still control the addition of coal, but the blower and damper are now automatically controlled for you based on what you're doing with the regulator, your demand for steam and your boiler pressure. In tonights build (cut just after the stream) it results in much better control of the boiler - but still won't stop it blowing off if you're just hanging around or shunting - but for normal runs you'll find it keeps the boiler at a good level without it constantly going off.

    In "fully automatic" fireman, the decision to start loading coal is now automatic as well.

    There's no visual representation of the temperature of the fire, nor the fire mass (or the target fire mass) - though these are all simulated, and there's no way to inject water manually. These aspects along with appropriate HUD additions and a more comprehensive and smarter automatic fireman that can then use these more refined controls will be coming along as part of this manual firing update for which I have no date to provide you with.

    What's in there now since the stream wasn't a knee-jerk reaction, just the result of engineers continuing to work hard to get as much into the product as they can, in this case, a little more than we expected last week (hooray awesome engineers) and a better experience.

    Matt.
     
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  34. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask if we are going to see blowbacks if in a tunnel? (I understand this may lead to an end of sim)
    Not sure if there is a tunnel but perhaps under a bridge stationary for simulation purposes?

    Also, is fusable plugs melting an occurrence?

    Trying to think of simulation occurrences that could increase immersion in some ways..
     
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  35. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Well-Known Member

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    I felt that the steam chest pressure builds a little too quickly when opening the regulator, there seemed to be very little delay if any. In some of the more advanced Train Simulator locos the steam chest seems to build more slowly and the pumping action on the regulator more realistic to get the loco moving. Perhaps this was partly due to Jamie's driving style and maybe it is still being worked on.
     
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  36. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    I did not watch the whole stream.
    I am now more than confused after reading all this.
    1. What will be the release day state of the 'safety noise'?
    2. What we will get with release - manual / semi-auto / auto firing as functional as described above?
    3. If so, how this will impact #1? It WILL BE (may 31th) unmanageable / manageable / about driving style & know how?

    The noice is horrible.
    Besides, super good.

    BR o7
     
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  37. PBrogaard

    PBrogaard Active Member

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    What I understood from the stream and what Matt said above, release is still May 31st, you get both auto and manual (and semi) firing, in manual you can control all but not the injectors. This is in development though. I don’t know about 1). Hope I am not confusing you more, someone please correct me if I am wrong.
     
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  38. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Still rather confused by the whole thing. We have a route due for a release a week tomorrow yet significant coding changes still ongoing. As I said this is looking like early access or a beta release, but at full price!

    Edit: Correction, less than a week away.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  39. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    TrainSim-Matt Thanks for the clarification, though with regards to the manual option, I’m still a little confused on this point.

    Does this mean that if we have it in manual, we can leave the firebox door closed, which in turn will stop the fireman from shovelling, which over a bit of time will bring down the boiler pressure? There is just confusion on how the manual option will effect boiler pressure.

    And I just have another question for you Matt. What happened to the climbing animations? We got it on the TVL locos but not on anything else. With regards to steam, this is something I feel should definitely be added, as if you have ever climbed on and off a steam loco footplate, there is something about climbing up and down those stairs…don’t know how to put into words, but I think anyone that has worked/works on these machines will know what I mean.
     
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  40. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your clarification. With no way to tell the fire intensity how can we go about a steam generation without getting into some sort of a fail state (if there is one)? If I close dampers and firebox, is there a possibility of me not being able to restart the fire? I see there's now an option to regulate, but feel like we're missing at least one HUD element for it.
     
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  41. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    How do you know when this is required if there is no way of seeing the intensity of the fire etc?
     
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  42. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It's a fudge, pure and simple.
     
  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Comment on this part alone (I don't have knowledge or experience (or desire) for steam so the rest may as well be in Greek)...

    Given the amount of screen time and user comments on testing, Beta testing, QA testing etc why is there development going on with a release that is six days away for the most anticipated title ever released for the game? It makes my mind boggle that we are still in a situation where testing is not being undertaken on controls which directly affect the player experience after all the "We're learning from our mistakes" commentary
     
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  44. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    I do agree with this to an extent, would be nice to be able to look into the firebox and maybe it could show slightly different colours to show intensity (orange and dim = low intensity = steam pressure will go down = add more coal, open blower a bit more, and open dampers to get steam generation to go up, orange and bright = medium intensity = good for shunting, pressure will rise but will loose pressure if you start doing mainline stuff = only need to put in coal once in a while to maintain intensity, white orange = hot fire = good for mainline = need to put every few minutes to keep it there, depending on how hard you pushing the engine, dampers might be required to keep it there)

    Would as well be nice to have smoke effects to show how well it’s going. I rode with a fantastic fireman a few times who would only look at smoke to tell him how the fire is doing (this was on a 15F which has a mechanical stocker), once he had a V in the smoke, the fire was perfect.

    The reason I agree to some extent, in TSC, once you learn the engine, you don’t really need to look anything besides the pressure. You kind of get a feeling for when to add and for how long. For me, in TSC, I found the ‘fire mass’ to be absolutely useless! That really does not indicate well how the fire is doing, what I looked at was pressure, and whether is was going up or down, that’s it, have never run out of steam on TSC doing that. I feel like TSW will be similar, once you learn the engine, it will become second nature when to put in coal.
     
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  45. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I mean, heaven forbid they want to make refinements and improvements to a hotly anticipated product for launch, either by community feedback or not. Have we forgotten they acted on #fencegate on SEHS between the first two previews? Have we forgotten the PIS system as a whole was only added because TSW2 was delayed? Have we forgotten how buggy and broken the 313 was in the first preview? This is hardly a new thing.

    Is there any evidence they've not tested it?
     
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  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They've spoken on stream at length about the delays and processes in testing and how long it takes to do such things (making sure of all the interactions, adjustments to timetables etc), and then above Matt states :
    "just the result of engineers continuing to work hard to get as much into the product as they can, in this case, a little more than we expected last week"
    which to me reads "engineers are working on this between last week's stream and this week's stream, somewhat confirmed by :
    "In tonights build (cut just after the stream) it results in much better control of the boiler"
    again reading that as the build AS OF LAST NIGHT... hence continuing development with no indication of continuing testing...
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Point is though, this is basic stuff coming to light not last minute snags. As a company DTG have been doing this for years, since RSDL days and some of the personnel may even to back to the Kuju era. So the steam simulation element should not still be in the process of being cobbled together six days from release. This should have been up and running months ago. And as for the track sounds...

    If DTG aren't going to pull it, at the minimum they should be knocking £10 or £15 off the price for an incomplete product.
     
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  48. zappatime

    zappatime Well-Known Member

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    Of the 3 firemen in last night’s stream, (1 was awol and) 2 appeared to be young-ish women as far as I could tell In 1958”? Is there no historical gender filter or am I being un-pc?
     
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  49. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The latter
     
  50. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you noticed but the fireman/firewoman looked like they had just been out to Nandos for a meal. Chinos on with a blazer
     
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