Busier Timetables Vs Authenticity: Updated Community View Regarding Sos And All Future Routes

The thing is, neither the TVL 08 nor the WSR 09 can be used authentically without fairly heavy mods. The 08 is in its 90s modernized configuration, and the 09 is, well, an 09.

 

Yes definately agree, it is still one of my favourite TS Classic routes. Porth though was a strange end point, whilst passenger trains terminated there from Maerdy, there was no where for freight trains to go to with hardly any sidings at Porth, Pontypridd would be a good place to end the route if not Cardiff..

 

You are indeed correct that Pontypridd would have been a bit of a more logical termination point for the route, although probably Radyr would have been the ultimate best end point for freight... but at that point you're practically at Cardiff and the process of extending it never stops! The route was only ever really intended to be more than somewhere to run the Austerity than an actual proper route (since at the time there were precious few or actually no suitable routes), originally the route was actually only intended to be down to Ferndale but at the 11th hour Mike deceided to extend it an extra 4 miles which I think he completed in about 3 weeks!

The sequel was much the same, we'd made the Battery loco almost as something as a joke but then as we came to really like the loco we needed somewhere to put it, we had Maerdy but putting it on that original route probably wasn't the best of ideas so I came up with forward dating the route while at the same time correcting some of the scenery inaccuracies in the process... although like the original it was never a perfect recreation by any means and I slightly broke the existing not very good signalling in the process. A fictional scenario was then dreamt up for the Type 3B to somehow end up on the route but I realised there were actually 2 Austerities at Maerdy so we spruced the austerity up quite a bit and tried to replicate those 2 as best as possible to give it some extra value and they almost became the best part of the route, as before though the route was more a place to play with the engines than a serious route.

 

Well - and I know this is off topic for the TSW board - but I bought Maerdy earlier this afternoon and am thoroughly enjoying it. At the moment I'm playing through the first scenario with the battery loco and jolly good fun. After that I'll take a deep breath and start to play with the J94. I think that might also help me understand what I need to do to get the Bossman 8F running and buy it again.

Having lived in South Wales for just over 8 years in the late 90's/early 00's I developed something of an interest in the freight lines in the Valleys. Searched in vain for Rhondda Tunnel as at the time there wasn't much info on the web until the reveal on one of the Urbex websites that access was through a drainpipe! Never quite brought myself to do it but walked some of the old trackbeds around Cynonville and Cymer.

Anyhow it would certainly be nice to see something of this in TSW at some point.

 

It is certainly a wonderful and atmospheric route and I never tire of it, I understand that you have to end somewhere otherwise you will never stop.

Vaguely back on topic, Meshtools were in the process of making a Stanier 4mt tank for TS Classic I wonder if that could ever appear in TSW, although I would still love it for TS Classic too? Although, I note what you say about Edge Hill and Crewe only having a small allocation of 4mt tanks, I was making an assumption that there would have been more of them. I wonder if the Edge Hill ones were more likely used on St Helen's services so not really useable on the stoppers to Crewe, I think they were often used on shorter distance parcels traffic too.

 

Using authentic trains exclusively is nice for those people who know which trains were authentic for the route.

I'm not familiar with any of the routes in TSW, which I guess applies to the majority of players, and personally I think an thin timetable ruins immersion more than using trains that aren't entirely appropiate for the route.

 

But for those who do know which trains ran on which route in a certain period, seeing the wrong trains ruins immersion greatly. The thought of a class 40 arriving at 1990's Penzance with a brakeless rake of mark 2's, I find totally grating, also laughable that anyone would think it is a good compromise.

Can you imagine the rage that would have occurred if DTG had put a Desiro on the London to Brighton instead of a Electrostar? Well they wouldn't have dared, so why add a completely unauthentic layer to a 1990's iteration of Cornwall. Beggars belief in my view.

I think you may find there are a lot more enthusiasts usintg TSW who do have their certain areas of interest than you think there are. I am sure many users of train simulators are actually rail enthusiasts not just folk who want to drive trains.

Having said that when I drive a German route I don't know if the stock is correct or not so I take your point that if you don't know whether it is realistic it probably doesn't matter to you but I suspect many German railway enthusiasts would be equally irritated if the incorrect train was included, in fact I have seen it on here myself.

 

So basically the choice is between keeping the average player happy (which I suspect is the majority), or keeping the train nuts happy (which I suspect to be a minority, although probably also very loyal customers). You'd almost wish for a toggle option for extra layers :P

I never thought about it. I like seeing some different trains on West Cornwall and I consider it a good thing I can use my BR blue locos on another route. I'm not familiar with the route, or with the time period. As long as it's train in the BR blue livery, I wouldn't notice anything odd. Personally, way better than having an empty route with very train options. Although the last one could've been solved with a more flexible substitution system for player controlled trains.

I can imagine a few very vocal British people making a hell of a noise, with most of the Germans and Americans rather neutral about the subject as long as it doesn't happen on German or American routes. I can also imagine the majority of people not even bothering replying on the topic. And I can imagine offering a very empty timetable would reflect on the review ratings. Really, don't overestimate the presence of the train experts here. This forum is already pretty divided on subjects, and this is supposed to be the most vocal part of the community. Most people playing TSW won't even visit the forums, so these forums are hardly a good way to poll the opinion of the average player.

I don't have any numbers. Do you? I don't think we can come to any conclusions on this part without any of us having some reliable statistics.

 

So should DTG add a class 66 to Harlem line or an AC4400 to Cathcart Circle to add more services?

 

I feel like threads like these are the result of London Commuter and players expecting every route to be busy. Players have to understand that not every route will be busy or have every train run on that particular line. Players should have better expectations and stop expecting every route to be busy. Just because some players may not know a route shouldn't be an excuse to add fictional trains to routes

Could Liverpool-Crewe be busier, yes. But DTG didn't make the all of the trains that run on the route so I don't really see a problem. Also West Cornwall isn't a busy route in real life so people who are calling for more services are just having unrealistic expectations

 

No I don't and likely there are more casual players than railway enthusiasts but I don't think it should be assumed that us "train nuts" are a small minority. Railways are a very popular hobby and alongside model railways simulators are a great way to relive the railways of yesteryear as well as creating modern day operations.

I have often talked about this, I read on here sometime ago that DTG were looking into it, I haven't seen any evidence of that myself though. It would indeed be a good compromise. For example I would be quite happy to see the class 101 on the St Ives branch as that wouldn't be beyond the realms of fiction, but not to have the other layers.

West Cornwall isn't that busy anyway so I don't really know what peple were expecting traffic wise!

 

If DTG are going to aim make routes with room for expansion then they need to actually expand them unlike what they did with Clinchfield. Maybe make a effort to start increasing the amount of new locos done per route from the one or two we currently get to three or four per route instead. Or if they absolutely can not do that then at the very least have far more regular DLC loco releases for routes. If they aren't going to do either of those then I say screw it, aim to make the timetable as complete as possible. Shunting with a 8f or a BR Blue 08 isn't ideal, but I'd say it's better to have a inaccurate route that feels alive then a dead route which is still inaccurate, just in a different way.

Which is the better option is going to come down to option, but I think we can all agree DTG committing to one these paths is better than leaving their options open and then ultimately abandoning the route with neither option having been taken.

 

Authentic wherever possible is my view.

I personally think more work should be done on a new route DLC to pack it out as much as possible - I would gladly pay more if that were the case, but DTG isn’t ready or prepared to do that. At least not yet.

 

I think loco dlcs would help in this area. But I feel like its down to just what some expect out of a route. Some players just don't understand that not every route will be busy in reality. I get that players want to see more services and trains to increase services, but players gotta be realistic and not expect every route to be busy and that DTG won't make every train for every route when it releases

DTG should focus once they fix the game up on Loco DLCs. It would be an easy solution to this problem some have with the game.

DTG aim to make authentic recreations of routes and locos and that's how it should be. It shouldn't be adding fictional trains to routes just because some have a unrealistic expectation that every route should be busy. This has got to stop.

 

I would accept things like a class 8F shunting if I knew it was going to be replaced at some point, same with a Jubilee on a local train. I do agree though, the paucity of loco DLC is surprising as expanding existing routes keeps them interesting, rather than just building new routes. I know it was hyperthetical, but a blue class 08 appearing in a 1958 route would be the sure sign that I should uninstall TSW and forget it ever existed!

I don't want to see routes that are quieter than would be in real life in the time modelled, but seeing completely incorrect trains would be worse in my view. A Jubilee with three mark 1's on a local wouldn't be beyond the pale as far as I was concerned as both loco and carriages would be seen on the route just not in the way depicted, I would still hope they would be replaced by something more representative in the future. A class 40 in West Cornwall, just no, sorry.

I do wish DTG would give us some clarity on the future approach they intend to take with SOS and other routes in general regarding expansions, not a firm commitment to particular stock but just their general intention. Unless they don't have an idea of what they want to do, I don't understand why it should be shrouded in secrecy. If SOS doesn't get any additional DLC in the future, and personally I think it will, then it really will extremely disappointing after the much heralded arrival of steam in TSW.

 

Ok here’s a recent example. Boston-Providence. DTG left the window open for the possibility of the Acela. However I’m unsure if DTG made room for the HSP46 since they run the exact same services as the F40ph. I’d most definitely not want to drive an ACS64 for an Acela service. People were also really mad that the lakeshore limited was represented by ACS64s and Amfleets. Now that you obviously can’t have a dlc for on Boston Sprinter. But if DTG ever do make a route with the P42, Amfleet IIs and viewliners, I’d much prefer seeing that than an attempt to represent it with completely different rolling stock. Brighton mainline is another example when it comes to Thameslink. I most definitely would not want to drive a 377 for a Thameslink service. Would far prefer driving the 700. And besides, we already have a ton of 377 services. Although I see your point, I think accuracy is much more important since that has been one of DTG’s weaknesses. 135 services is pretty good compared to lots of other routes. *Cough cough* Cane Creek and Clinchfield.

 

The fact the trains are in BR Blue livery is a complete fantasy - that livery was extremely rare (like, a few locos in the entire country wearing it) by the 90s.

This was regarding the PS5 64GB limit and is going to be console-exclusive to help with memory issues.

 

Given that DTG have slowly been adding third-party developers to the TSW stable, perhaps it would be better to start them off doing locos like TSG rather than undertake entire routes, something which it seems Rivet in particular struggles with. (And less time trying to get a handle on Alps and signalling would be more time available to get the physics right).

 

Which would push out people like me who don't know the first thing about modelling locomotives and rolling stock/aren't interested in that.

TSG only do locos because TSB only want to do locos. DTG doesn't dictate what a 3rd party can/cannot make (within reason).

 

How do you propose doing a route without rolling stock?

 

Reuse stock from other routes?

 

Don't expect much in the way of sales then.

 

Harlem, Cane Creek, Reisa-Dresden and Boston Sprinter seem quite popular and they use entirely recycled trains (albeit with minor mods).

 

Far more than "minor" mods. Even Riesa-Dresden, which appears to use the "same" trains, represents near-complete rebuilds.

 

Well even so, they're still largely the same thing. Also you're assuming this is not two 3rd parties collaborating (which, if possible, is how I'd go about making DLCs; I do the routes and someone else does the stock)

 

Ah okay, well maybe they could consider including that option for PC's as well.

 

Maerdy expanded to Pontypridd would ring my bell - was born there - Maesycoed above the sidings!

 

From what I gather what the 2nd phase (where you manually select which DLC to use) does is you basically tell the game 'ignore this DLC', which means you can't load it (effectively uninstalling it), so you'd have to restart to get that DLC useable again (I think). The first phase is do it dynamically where it only loads in the route you select, all layers and suitable (non-OTR) stock.

 

No way. Third party devs are our only hope for routes outside of the Big Three with DTGs limited scope...

I quite enjoy Rivets routes. Did not regret buying them and they offer something different from the usual cycle of very similar stuff DTG pumps out.

 

Thanks to everyone has who taken time to respond to this thread, some good constructive arguments pointed out on both sides of the debate.

This is a difficult one to answer, though would depend on context I guess.

For instance, hypothetically, if it were confirmed that no further DLC would be added to London Commuter, then having 377s operate TL services would not be a major concern for me. Why you ask? Firstly, it would mean stations such as Salfords or Earlswood etc would actually be served (Southern 377s do serve such in real-life). Plus as mentioned earlier, it doesn't bother me much about the rolling stock, as 387s had plied such before the arrival of the 700s a few years ago. Of course, while I don't mind the 377s operating such, just to be clear I wouldn't want TL services operated by Class 313s just as an example of a busier timetable vs some kind of authenticity.

But, on the other side of the argument, the Class 700 is my most wanted rolling stock DLC, so I'm happy to wait, but that is also thanks to London Commuter's timetable being already busy enough and keeping me occupied in the first place.

Hence going back to my point that is a sparse timetable for a route the right decision if we've got to wait for DLC that has not even been confirmed? As others have said, I'd potentially like to see a new route, but with DLC already confirmed for it later down the line - kind of like the older roadmap format of what to expect over the next year etc.

That's my view, thoughts welcome.

 

Just to be clear, I don't expect every route to be like London Commuter, but my main hope from the legacy of the Rush Hour routes is that future routes - where applicable - would be more busier in general than routes pre-Rush Hour.

Rush Hour was a major turning point and a nice surprise, it shows what is possible (obviously not forgetting bugs and game-crashes though), particularly regarding mainline routes; while 1000+ services might always be too much, I would like to see these type of routes with at least 600/700+ services as opposed to just 200+ etc and, most importantly, with a plethora of AI traffic.

You mention authenticity is key for routes, but surely a busy timetable for routes that are/were busy in real-life is authentic in its own right? Cathcart and LIRR are nice which I've enjoyed, but the main terminus stations are quite empty, which is not authentic. Additionally, routes like Crewe-Liverpool with part of the WCML that was and still is today super busy - so an emptier timetable wouldn't be as immersive or authentic for me. In the recent stream, personally, I thought Crewe looked far too empty for my liking.

 

I recently made a scenario using the working timetables from 1986 for the Crewe to Liverpool route on TS Classic. It was a stopping service in the middle of the afternoon. Apart from traffic around Liverpool going down the Chat Moss and CLC routes and some at Crewe along the WCML and little bits elsewhere, the core of the route, Edge Hill to Weaver Junction didn't see that much traffic. A couple of freights and around two expresses passed me and one stopping service.

Admittedly this was in the 80's and there would have been a fair amount more freight in 1958, I doubt the passenger service on the main lines was much different, if anything it might have been more frequent in the 1980's. Certainly the timetable for my local line in the 1950's was quieter than it was in the 1980's and certainly quieter than it is now.

So whilst the SOS route is undoubtedly too quiet I think to expect there would be a constant procession of trains is a mistake.

 

Rush Hour had the built-in advantages of nearly all traffic on the Victoria-Brighton line and its branches being handled by Electrostars, so that that massive timetable only involved two variations of one train; and additional AI traffic could be layered in with existing trains (even if a bit of fictionalization was required to get a HST in there). Riesa-Dresden was the beneficiary of five years' worth of German rolling stock development, so it could be very crowded without adding a single new loco.

Neither of these applies here. At the moment (May 2022), there are only two steam locomotives in existence, and historical traffic on the route involved far more than just those two.

 

Of course, with a brand-new time period this presents its own challenges. But I wonder if the SOS route would have been better placed in a slightly later period, then players could of benefited from all their existing British diesel locos which could of layered nicely on to the route.

 

Most of the diesels would have needed a fair amount of modification in the their own right anyway.

I am a huge steam and BR diesel/electric fan but I think for many, me included a steam only route was desired.

 

Well yeh but cathcart is empty because DTG don't have the trains. Cathcart only has the 314, a freight service and a few railtours and LIRR is empty because of the singaling issues. Again I am all for authenticity but there will be limitations on how busy can be based on the number of trains made for said route. You can't expect every route to be busy when not all the trains that run on the route are made/can't be a layer. It may suck but that's how it is and you have to accept that.

Remember this is DTG's first steam route to to expect a busy route really was setting yourself up for disappointment. Loco DLC's would help in this area to add more life to a route but that's up to DTG

 

"Authenticity" is only used by DTG when it suits them.

OK, they only wanted to provide an "authentic" timetable to SOS with current stock available? Fair enough

I would ask though, is it "authentic" to have this route set in 1958 with no clickety-clack/rail sounds? Nah, it most certainly isn't!

 

Interesting, which is at odds with what Matt has stated and the evidence of the ears when listening to the coaching stock running past in lineside view. Guess I'll keep my £24.99 on standby as that was the main reason why I cancelled the pre-order.

 

This is a tough crowd.

 

Not really. It's at best carelessness (at worst sheer incompetence) on the part of the developer to omit such a vital component of a late 1950's UK railway from the mix. This was one route where I was actually considering just taking a ride as a passenger to soak up the Mark One ambience a great part of which is those B1 bogies clanking across the track joints.

 

I don't get why dtg can't have track noise on some of their routes. In TS it's no problem but here they can't seem to implement them onto their routes for some odd reason. Not all routes are grinded rail. It kills immersion when their isn't track noise.

Although on this route there is track noise apparently but that info should be coming from DTG themselves and not their ambassadors

 

I mean they have had enough time to improve how they implement track noise. This was a similar issue with Harlem as well. At this point they either don't care or are being incompetent.

 

This shows that DTG are capable of implementing track noise yet they just don't. This is something that should be raised during the next Liverpool-Crewe stream or the roadmap stream because I just find it odd to be honest.

 

Jeez. Fences and clickity-clack?

I have come down on occasion on DTG where I really thought they weren't coming up to scratch, but this is just trivia of the can't-ever-be-satisfied variety. It's as if this mob watch preview streams with the Webb Telescope just to find nits to pick.

Instead of the deserved "I'm impressed, bravo" for all DTG have accomplished in their first essay into both steam and a seriously vintage route, we get the reaction of a bratty teenager who got a new car for her sixteenth birthday and whines that it's the wrong color.

 

Foaming?

All I said was that it was unwise for a games company to include politically controversial content.

 

I mean track noise would be a basic part of a steam route set in the 50s though. I wasn't alive at that time but it would be a basic part of any route really unless the route is grinded rail. Nobody is acting like a teenager. This has been an issue way before Spirit Of Steam released and we have every right to point it out. If you don't think it might be a big issue that is fine but there is nothing wrong with pointing it out since it should be a basic feature. It's not nitpicking either. Audio is a important part of immersing the player and track noise adds to that immersion

 

The fences, I'm not concerned about, not a deal breaker at all for me, though as a praise, love seeing those telegraph poles!

Now no clickety-clack sounds? That is a massive immersion breaker! as I posted somewhere earlier, a Train Simulator with no rail joint sounds??? Come on!

If you think that's nit-picking, fine, but I'd of thought a train running on a track would require sound to enjoy the experience, oh well, each to our own I guess

 

I am very pleased that there are others here who agree that the immersion breaking side of not having track joint sounds is important. I just hope DTG do check these threads and actually look to resolve this before release or on a day 1 patch (hence why we have a Tuesday release).

 

you cant hear the track joints in the cab over 10mph?

So even with an open backed cab, the in cab sounds are still way too attenuated like they are in pretty much all the electric loco's and EMU's i've driven in the game.

 

Looking at the comments, Paul only seemed to say that track sounds are in, that he’s spoken to Matt, and that you won’t hear track sounds in a real cab over 10mph (speaking from his own experience). What he did not say is that Matt talked to him about track sounds (from my understanding). paul.pavlinovich, any chance you could clear this up for us?