Spirit Of Steam Stream Feedback Thread... And More Importantly...

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by mattwild55, May 19, 2022.

  1. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    My guess is this was made for 4-5 possible dlcs, from loco, freight and wagon dlcs up to a gameplay addon for additional services. So for that the route was definetly the right choice.

    If they really have no plans to make dlcs for the crewe liverpool route i might start to question the vision for tsw. Wouldnt make sense to recreate 100% of an era with such an effort to leave it behind half empty with using about 10% of its potential.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  2. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Crewe in the 50s is Paul Jackson’s dream for steam, so I doubt there was a lot of discussion concerning the route.
     
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  3. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Let's hope Paul wants loco dlc and passengers sharpish to fill it out
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  4. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    I have posted this before but will repeat my words. A lot of routes have potential for more DLC and to be honest in some cases could really do with it. Only the German content appears to have gone in the right direction although some on the forum have shot it down. The best British route for DLC is Tees Valley which I still feel could do with padding out. The lead time on creating DLC is an issue as it seems to take ages now. I still think SoS is TSW2s watershed moment.
     
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  5. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    After watching the stream, I as someone with only little interest in english railways will preorder this. It looks like a fun experience. The last stream really convinced me. And also, i've got some plans for the livery designer.
    All in all: It looks like a fantastic start for the steam era in TSW2, hoping that german steam locos will follow one day. Thanks for the hard work, it's really appreciated.
     
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  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    TBH I am totally astonished that the lack of track sound has been overlooked until such a late stage. This IMHO is even worse than the missing lineside fencing or the hurriedly fudged firing arrangements. I may be a lone voice in this but with such major issues together with the doubt over when or even if they will get fixed, serious consideration should be given to pulling the release and taking this back in the factory to try and sort it. I do not pay £24.99 for part finished software so am afraid I will be refunding my pre order on this.
     
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  7. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Putting my business hat on for a sec, thinking about the wider implications of SoS for TSW, and a note for a hopeful future:

    I think steam is probably the final obvious and big tranche of potential new players. There are some players out there who wouldn't give diesel or electric a thought as they're steam fans - but finally TSW has something to offer them. In the same sense that making TSW available on consoles has massively increased the player base (and therefore sales), steam should be a rich vein of potential sales to mine which will be a great thing for those of us who want to see DTG do well and continue producing DLC for us to enjoy for years to come (even if as we all understand there are improvements that can be made).

    I'm really hopeful that we'll see some of the extremely talented steam loco third-party developers consider making the move from TSC to TSW now - yes, the modelling of the locos is definitely more work than it was (both from an artwork and presumably physics point of view) but the potential sales should also be much greater (thanks to that console player base we just spoke about).

    I sincerely hope on this basis that what looks like a wonderful route will be populated with more and more loco DLCs until say in a year or two we can stand on that footbridge at Crewe at 13:00 and watch a rich variety of express, local and freight trains come and go while shunters trundle back and forth in the distance.

    Here's the USP about TSW - the layering, timetable and on foot exploration provide *so much potential* over and above the one shot scenarios of TSC and I'm full of positivity for what could be - we just have to hope someone steps up and produces the DLC we need to add that depth of experience.

    My wallet is open and waiting - please don't leave us hanging!
     
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  8. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

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    maybe put a few more sleeps in between there! You cant do it all in one go
     
  9. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Oh you are not alone, I mean a Train Simulator WITHOUT track sounds!?! Really????
     
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  10. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Few more 'sleeper' joint sounds
     
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  11. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    You're certainly not alone. The lack of the iconic clickity-clack of jointed track for the first steam route is a serious oversight (and once more raises the question of what actually happens in QA, I'm afraid).

    I do agree with your sentiment that this feels rushed. The bean counters probably had enough after the long development time for steam and told the developers to "get on with it" to quote a famous group of British comedians. It's just really unfortunate that after such a long time in development, it seems like there are now shortcuts being taken for the last few meters. That being said, I'm still on the day-one-purchase team for now. Feel free to call me a hypocrite for this after what I wrote before but being able to run steam engines (which I never could before since I'm on console) is already really exciting and the 8F with its freight trains did seem like a lot of fun yesterday.
     
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  12. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Can well not forget the fencing has been left out in certain areas, I'm sure this has been raised and should not take long to complete..
     
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  13. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the lack of track joint sounds, was this not picked up early in route development or was this a last minute bug?

    Seems really unfortunate that there will be no ‘clickety-clack’ sounds on what was a very noisy railway. The MK1s without their classic joint sounds whilst at speed will just feel and sound odd.
     
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I'm presuming the no track sound extends to points and crossings too. A bit of a showstopper as you say for a steam era route. They might have got away with it on a modern era route but not this. Given that routes like NTP and TVL have quite good track sounds, what on earth slipped or changed in the editing process to cause this?
     
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  15. argh.bailey

    argh.bailey Active Member

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    Starting at 2:33:15 in the livestream on youtube is that track joint sounds I can hear from the conflat wagons?
     
  16. zappatime

    zappatime Well-Known Member

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    Quite agree, it’s a fundamental part of the era, I think they need to fix it before release, even if that means a slight delay. Hopefully its easily fixable, but they’ve been trialling the route internally for a while now so you’d think it was noticed early on, but it seemed to be only noticed at the first live stream (like many things!)
     
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  17. JellyScrub

    JellyScrub Active Member

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    I thought that was just the sounds of the wagons themselves. Not specifically moving over track joints. I could be wrong though.
     
  18. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    That must be the case as by their own admission there are no track sounds.
     
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  19. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    If we continue on asking for extra AI or services, we may end up with a BR Blue 47 with MK2 coaches and no brake coach + a class 101 to bulk it up..
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  20. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Built by train enthusiasts for train enthusiasts (minus sound)
     
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Don't give them ideas!
     
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  22. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    I am definitely not buying until that is fixed. Probs waiting for a sale. May go for an American freight route while the sale is on instead.
     
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  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Same here. Eyeing up the TSC 8F and Jubilee, also China Clay recommended due to my delight over Maerdy. So the money will still end up with DTG, just on something tried and tested. Enough left over I might even grab the North Somerset or Malmesbury routes.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am torn on this now, it looked so much better last night being streamed on the PC. I loved the clear view from the cab without having to use the heads out below, something you often have to do in TS Classic. It looked very good and seemed to convey the atmosphere of the era.

    However the lack of track joint sounds is a major minus point towards it, as said in this era the railway was noisy and the sounds of heavy steam engines moving over points and the clickety clack of carriages over track joints are so much a part of the character of the steam age. Without those it will kill the immersion.

    I likely will purchase it as I don't want to put DTG off producing more content like this.

    However, it will definatley need more DLC, I would say two more engines at least, as there would have been so much variety in this area.
     
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I recommend the TSC 8F, well all the Bossman games loco's, the Merchant Navy is wonderful. Malmesbury is a lovely little route, great for shunting and pottering about on. The Victory Works 58xx is very fitting for it as I think they were very common on this branch.
     
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  26. PAFC47760

    PAFC47760 Member

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    Shame there doesn't look to be an option to have an 8F on Mk1s, Was thinking about buying it then setting up own runs just with the 8F.
    Yes its a goods loco but obviously there were times it stepped up to replace a failed loco on passenger or hell they worked the S&D in 1965 1966 on passenger, just not in winter cause of no steam heat.
     
  27. ggy

    ggy Member

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    According to the stream last night, there was no coal on the shovel. Is that a bug or intentional?
     
  28. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Probably a bug but doubtful it will be fixed on release, I feel the coal should reduce in the tender also
     
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  29. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I think Matt said yesterday, that over time you can actually see the coal on the tender going down. But of course it won't be that impactful as the route is too short to see a great change in coal load on the tender.
     
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  30. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Believe me the firing rate it currently depicts (safety valve feature) , I would expect half a tender less once I reach the end
     
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  31. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    Ugh!
    I've just watched last nights stream and I have to say that overall I'm hugely disappointed.

    The look of the route I actually really like, it's excellent! However the (what I consider mad!) decision to only have prototypical services means it is totally lifeless. As if it's set after an apocalypse! Wandering around Crewe station at 13:05 for 10 minutes and not a single service in sight. Nothing moving around the yards. It's horrible! After being genuinely delighted the first time I tried West Somerset and saw an AI engine run around it's coaches the thought of being able to jump back in time and train spot at a busy station in the steam era made me so excited for TSW steam. What a wasted opportunity.
    Oh and the confirmation in the stream that "no additional locos are currently planned". :(

    Sounds - or lack thereof. No track joints! Sitting in the coach on a preserved line train what are the sensations? The distant chuff of the loco (depending how far back you are!) and the endless clickety clack telling you that you've stepped back into the past.
    But not in TSW. They are "broken" and Matt says they will try to fix them at some point but no promises. Again, madness.
    Shovelling coal in total silence. Yeah.
    Safeties and fire management have been covered extensively elsewhere but the bottom line is shunting and slow yard work is a no go - you'll be deaf after 10 minutes. 3 massive yards, a lovely freight engine but it's all going to be end to end, A to B runs if you want to keep your sanity.
    When is fire management coming? Don't know.

    And this is the big one...
    The driver doesn't have an iPhone to tell him the time. Also the passengers aren't wearing puffer jackets and Levi Jeans. And the stations don't have digital display boards.
    What? What did I say wrong? This is set in 1958 you say? Ohhh, I didn't realise that because the footplate crew are made up of every race and gender so I assumed that we are now in historical fantasy land where anything can go in any time period.
    On preserved lines, absolutely go for it! It's 2022 and all people can do all things.
    But in 1958 - no. I know it's a political hot potato but it's utterly immersion breaking for a route that is saying it's set in this time period. I was excited that an in-cab fireman would help make TSW feel more immersive than TSC, it turns out that this now makes it feel LESS immersive.
    How about a menu option that says "Historically Accurate Crew - Off/On". You can even default it to Off to show how modern and progressive DTG is.

    I've known BigVern for a long time and we've locked horns on many occasions and on many forums but on this we are very much aligned.. this product feels unfinished. And with the constant assertion of "we're not promising to fix/add anything" I just can't see it being something I'll want to keep coming back to after the initial "Oo, it's a bit prettier than TSC" has worn off.

    I shall finish this semi-rant with a single sentence that Matt said whilst discussing the in-team Easter egg that they add to each route
    "Quite a lot of work went into the donkey"

    Maybe next time, less donkey and more train? :|
     
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  32. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Least there's no containers.
     
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  33. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Your mistake. Conflats are containers.
     
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  34. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I do not dare say I agree (I do not want to be cancelled) but it is an issue. It is even worse if you select a female player avatar. Another you can't have it all. For me it is not a big issue.. What is worse is that the firewoman looks so clean. No dirt at all.I think that is really offensive.
     
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  35. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Problem is, will this get picked up by the Company who creates this game/sim (dependent on whether it's either or a game/sim due to pointers highlighted above) I do hope victory work's comments do get picked up because they are extremely valid points that need implementing into this DLC. Particularly the AI/Service mode as it is a ghost route, it's ridiculous.
     
  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am certainly one who doesn't want to see unrealistic layers but on the premise more DLC is to come, a Jubilee/8F with four mark 1's could be included on local services to be replaced by any future DLC representing a local train, i.e. a Stanier 5mt and carriages.

    Certainly AI trains going through Crewe on the WCML would be a no brainer I would have thought, and going off to Chester and North Wales. Also trains going down the north and west route through the Marches. I do think though you would soon tire of seeing just Jubilees and 8F's, what will (hopefully) really bring this route to life will be the addition of more DLC and then being in the position where you do not know which type of loco will turn up on the next train, similarly to what you get on NTP.

    It certainly needs more life, if more DLC is definitely to be added in the future I personally would be happy to wait but it was a bit too quiet.
     
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  37. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I couldn’t believe how dead Crewe looked - what was (and still is to this day to some extent) a bustling railway station, with lots of moments.

    I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry, but it was honestly quite embarrassing to see Crewe a ghost town when it was around 13:00 in the afternoon. I don’t think I saw a single AI service, or even anything being shunted in the yards.

    For anyone that knows Crewe well, it really was an insult to see it look so dead. Not to mention it’s a massive immersion breaker.
     
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What would your solution to that be? Fill it up with imaginary 8F shunting services?
     
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  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I did notice there's a lot being swept up in the "focusing on the driving experience " first for this route however some of the elements of the driving experience have been omitted.

    I recall my first model railway. A 6 x 4 ft board with a one plastic station, a class 47 and some coaches. No scenery , no noise, Barron. We're not quite there with this by any stretch but there's things that have always been present in other routes left out. That grass looks nasty too. I can't unsee some of those banks.

    There was a comment made , clarified quickly about gen 8 consoles, I can't help think that route ambition has been wound in to gen 8 acceptability's whilst there's still a cash pot there at the expense of the "driving experience" ?

    I'll be glad when the courage and commercial sense is there to put development to bed for them
     
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  40. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    I think I should clarify that my position might not be common in that having only had TSW2 for a couple of months and having thousands of hours in TSC I come at this from a position of "Why do I want to spend my time playing TSW2 when I have TSC? What's better?"
    I'm also a history buff and lover of realistic simulation - hence my own Pro locos.

    If TSW2 goes down a different road, pretty pretty but with little substance, then I'm ok with that. I'll get back to my TSC and no harm done. It just feels like a real shame that the things that TSW does do really well over TSC (AI that can run around and shunt, full 24 hour timetables you can just jump into, being able to be a "person" rather than a loco and wander around in the world) might never be used in a decent simulation of the steam era of railways.
    I can't really judge the situation currently as all I've driven so far in TSW are dizzels and electrics and I have NO idea how those work in reality. They seem "realistic" as I have to press buttons and turn dials, etc. and they look fine to my eyes but I've nothing to compare that to as I've never driven them in a realistic sim or in real life. Kettles I have.
     
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  41. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    A future Steam loco DLC may fix this issue, but for now, I think for quite a few people they will hold off purchasing SOS until this happens.

    I have no knowledge of Steam locos, but perhaps a ‘mixed use’ Steam loco (if one exists) would’ve been a better choice.
     
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  42. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    When a highly respected developer for TSC is saying this, then DTG should be sitting up and taking notice. There seems to be a lack of humility about what has transpired which questions my confidence in them to actually fix the problem.

    I have now requested a refund on my pre-order but will continue to watch developments and if/when I feel things have improved sufficiently then I will revisit a purchase.
     
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  43. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    We had this already in Leeds and Manchester Vic on NTP and to an understandable extent in Cathcart, with Rush hour maybe we expect too much? Problem is that really the route needs 3 more loco types, a shunter of some sort, a jack of all trades Black 5 and a Big pacific Duchess or Coronation. A Royal Scot would be ok instead of the pacific I guess...

    The dev team just cant justify 4 or 5 loco types for a £24.99 DLC so I understand that but its a proper waste if its not built in for the future. My main gripe is the lack of track sounds most other stuff including lack of AI I can probably live with (for now).
     
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  44. thomastl59374

    thomastl59374 Well-Known Member

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    Overall I'm happy with what the streams have shown and I will be getting this on the 31st. The lack of the track joints is annoying, hopefully the issues surrounding that can be resolved quickly in period after the release. Also it is disappointing that this route will suffer with Gen 8 issues and consequently we'll see less variety in these busy yards. Hopefully we can still have volume of static rolling stock as previously we have been told that volume of rolling stock isn't the main cause.

    As for DLC this route is obviously in dire need of extra locos. It would be nice if we got these in loco packs like on NTP, so that I would't have to purchase multiple locos in order to bulk up services.
     
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  45. nhilsubsolenovum

    nhilsubsolenovum Active Member

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    My view is while ever that Matt is in charge of development, TSW2 will eventually die. I don't trust a word he says "we're looking into it", "it's a tooling problem" etc... I'd be horrified to be releasing a Steam train without track joint noise... This isn't a personal dig in anyway at the chap, I'd buy him a beer, but the laid back attitude of "this is how it'll be released" and you may or may not get improvements. I hate that.
     
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  46. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    If this is the case, im done with dtg products. I dont touch tsc anymore since 2018, & tsw got me because of the phenomenal details. So a slow and slightly approach to shiny products with low substance to keep it running on last gen will stop me from spending any more time into the franchise.

    "No promise for a fix of the joint sounds...". Hell no promise from me for a future as a backer...!

    Im surrounded by trains every day at work. The only thing i would miss is the sandbox style and messing around without the whole workload of 10 maintenance projects parallel.
     
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  47. royalscot#3684

    royalscot#3684 Well-Known Member

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    Don't know why they didn't do a main line with fewer services at a slightly latter date so the whole thing doesn't look so empty...

    The GCR in the mid sixties would have been ideal. It could be filled by a Black five on London passenger services and a 9F on the Windcutter freights. You could also have had the existing diesel 37 or 47 on cross country services and a 101 on locals. Plus much of the railway is still there and there are loads of videos and published information on the bits that aren't...
     
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I just have this feeling Crewe to Liverpool was forced on them to keep the Big Boss happy and they simply got overwhelmed by the vastness of it all, such that we are now seeing everything that got missed or left out. GC was in my previous wishlist signature, but another candidate would have been the S&D as it was in Rail Simulator/Railworks, heck Settle to Appleby - we would have grumbled about a route from nowhere to nowhere but it would have been far better in terms of what they needed to build and a believable service level.l
     
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  49. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Track joint sounds and coal on a shoval have to be included in a steam era train sim in 2022, its not acceptable to say, the tooling is broken or its a bug and we only noticed 2 weeks - 10 days prior to release so wont be fixed for release and (in the case of the joints) we cant guarantee that it will be fixed at all.

    How did it get to the stage with the executive producer is only finding out about this now, you really cant expect us to believe that they care about detail and immersion.

    The sooner we get a real competitor in the train sim market the better, and when that day comes DTG will either have to make dramatic improvements or the game will die. The only thing keeping me as a customer is the lack of a decent alternative available in £ sterling.
     
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  50. argh.bailey

    argh.bailey Active Member

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    Something felt a bit off in the response to the lack of track joint sounds. For a such a long awaited addition of steam engines that will likely bring in many new customers I can't understand the relaxed approach to issues such as this...

    You can only make a first impression once.

    My understanding from Matt's response is that they will look into it, but won't commit to a timescale for fixing it and if it is too hard they might just leave it as is.

    I don't want to end on a negative because excluding a few things that should be minor bug fixes pre or post release, really, come on DTG. It generally looks really promising and I can't wait to try it out, the 8f actually looked engaging to drive.
     
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