Hi, so while this account is new I have been a DTG customer since 10 years. So I have suffered my share of Bugs and problems with TS and TSW and invested many $. I have read the first open Letter to DTG which rightfully complained about constant and ongoing Quality issues with Releases, DLCs and Patches. I have also seen DTGs response, their promise to improve. Yesterday a big update was released and it sadly was a massive disappointment for many of us since it introduced more bugs on some routes then it fixed and even made the experience worse on some routes. I played RT for 5 minutes and noticed a couple of obvious new issues introduced by the "update". Broken PIS, broken doors, broken lights on the 442 and then there is the awful sound bug on HRR. Unplayable. These bugs affect all platforms it seems and are neither obscure nor hard to reproduce. They are obvious to anyone playing for more then 5 minutes. Now please explain DTG how something can happen although you said you started improving your QA process? It is almost insulting to the customers to release a patch with such absolutely obvious issues and it tells me there was again no QA at all or it was the worst QA process possible. So how do we move forward from here? I already fear the next Preservation Updates since they might break more stuff then they fix again and even make the experience WORSE. Of course you say you investigate these bugs and we might see a new update in a few months but honestly I'm massively disappointed being served such a mess of an update. Again we are not talking about rare obscure bugs but stuff that should be impossible to miss even with a very basic QA. DTG JD DTG Please explain how something like this can happen and when we can expect a fix for the big issues introduced and how you plan to prevent this from happening again. Thanks
Simple solution would be to scrap their Q&A! Any updates/fixes/new features they do, release as BETA so we, the community can report back, then when they've had their feedback, work on fixes, release as BETA, rinse and repeat until any changes are ready for full release.
The problem with that is that neither Microsoft nor Sony permit public betas. So it would be PC-only, and the fallout from that ("DTG are screwing console players!") would be horrendous.
I partecipate in all the MSFS open betas on xbox though. Perhaps special treatment for a MS game on a MS platform?
Except that they have external beta testers on Xbox now, or at least are getting close to that. Not for new content, just updates.
To be more specific: they won't allow public betas of DLC. Original base games, OK. Weird, but that's the rules, and it really harms games like TS/TSW with a core-plus-add-ons model. Mind you, there is no problem with private beta testers, which DTG are implementing. The problem is with public betas, available to anyone who feels like downloading them.
That makes more sense, but all of these were updates to already available DLC. I wasn't part of the xbox beta, but I would assume that if you had any of the DLCs that were updated you could test that, it's new DLC the problem (which apparently can't be given to only a selected number of people). This opens up an interesting question, should TSW look at transitioning to an in-game store and DLC managment like MSFS? This would allow control of sales, possibly betas and whatnot, it wouldn't rely on MS/Sony release windows, etc... it would also allow third party routes if an editor is ever released for PC. It could also be used to force you to buy dependencies (home route for loco DLC) and as I said would allow much greater flexibility. There already is a Dovetail Live store so...
are you sure about that as for betas on xbox there can be open beta's not sure for sony but there definitely also has been open betas
Honestly i dont want this thread to be a "how can Sony and MS help DTG" kind of thread. There are no excuses for the awful QA Problem at DTG affecting new releases in DLC and Patches. I would agree they should probably scrap their current QA process since its clearly not working at all when a single player can spot countless bugs in minutes that should never made it through QA. Nobody can tell me anyone played the RT patch for more then 10 seconds before release, otherwise such things would not be released. And if these issues were known to DTG but they still decided to release the update its even worse i would say. Or maybe the QA guys and girls dont care at all? No passion for the game? Maybe DTG outsourced QA because its cheaper? Who knows. On one side they release pretty good routes and locos out of the box sometimes. So we know they can get stuff done. Then on the other side we wait years to get a rolling sound on the RT 442 (which should not be a feature we have to wait years for, it should be there on release day!) but all we get is a broken PIS. I relly would like to see DTG improve but all we have seen up until now is talk and promises but no action or improvement. In my opinion it is still as bad as years ago. And dont tell me hiring someone to ask Matt a few "tough" questions on youtube is improvement when the players dont get the bug fixes and improvements they deserve. The code might be a mess at this point and they know they will break stuff once they add stuff like PIS or animated crossings. But then maybe they should better not add stuff to old DLC before making it worse with "updates".
I was pleased that new Preservation updates were released even though I don't have those routes but quite concerned when the bug reports started coming in. These updates were completed early DEC 2021 and they then had dedicated testing teams put on them so what happened DTG? I wonder who they would blame for this? I'm still waiting for the GWE updates to come but have to be honest, I'm wondering how many bugs it will have.
As I've suggested months ago when I first started with TSW, I don't think these problems are technical competence or even a broken QA process. I've been working at software companies my whole career from programming to sales. It all starts at the top, with a definition of ultimate goals. It's always profit of course. The question is how to get there. I don't want to write an essay rambling about the software business. Suffice to say you balance short term sales, with long term customer retention. This done by appealing to the most new buyers, developing new content to buy, and ensuring buyers continue to enjoy playing with quality and repeatability. I don't know any DTGs internal structure, processes, goals or challenges, so can only form a judgement based on their output The rate at which they release new content is too high. It's conspicuously high for this niche train sim market. In other words, they prioritize developing and selling new DLCs over quality assurance, bug backlogs, and improving already released content. There is no obvious profit in fixing existing releases. Investors in a company will want to cash out their profit at some point, so software startups usually will need to show consistent and growing revenue growth for a few years, for highest valuation, when selling themselves. Bugs and some people complaining on the forum is not on the balance sheet. This not being subscription based, long term customer retention is not on the balance sheet. As long as people keep buying new DLCs, why bother making them perfect or adding on to what was already sold. When I started at a small startup we tried to get any customer we could, to keep a positive revenue trend, and eventually got bigger for the next round of investment. Then were able to be a bit more choosy with customer to maintain retention. This was subscription based so more important. There is always a tension in the company between developers who take pride in delivering quality and execs who want to see more sales. You have to choose a balance there. Ideally a company driver by execs with passion for the space will not sacrifice too much quality. But so many times execs don't care what it is they are actually selling. I've already shared thoughts on DTGs history and the conclusions you can make, some time ago. So anyway, I've seen good stuff from DTG and I don't believe their developers can't make good software. I also don't think it's a matter of tweaking the QA process. They have just decided that the current balance is fine, and the level of complaints and bugs won't effect the bottom line. It's actually understandable, financially. Even after some expressed dissatisfaction, I bought 2 DLC's recently. On paper, I'm a fully satisfied repeat customer. I don't expect any change.
I think their QA has problems, DTG have admitted to such , and needs fixing. I also think they do lack in certain skills, sound for instance. Again DTG have said this albeit saying they are getting better. I agree problems usually come from the top down and that Devs are the ones that get it in the neck. And you say things won't change at DTG I disagree as if customers are not getting a good enough game, fixes, patches etc they will jump ship. It has happened before with much bigger games although the type of game does come in to play. But even now they have been a few players that have stopped buying DLC for TSW2, I have. Not that expect anything to change. If they don't change so be it, no skin off my nose but I'm hoping they do and I can see stuff that interests me and others and so I can support the game once again. But as it stands I have spent far to much money on this game and accessories and still waiting to play the route I bought the game for, GWE.
While I agree with your opinion there is a difference in this particular case. Those are updates that costed them time and resources which had the only effect of making an existing piece of content worse (RT), about the same (HRR) or slightly better (RSN) than before. So it's not like they didn't even bother.
Sure, the QA can have problems and need fixing, but quite often the reason is not enough resources devoted to it. Whether more people, more experienced people, more improvements to process or better Dev Operations management software, it will manifest as you have seen. Regression bugs which break existing code are part of development. These are more likely to occur when people less familiar with the original code are tasked with bug fixing work. And as you say should have been caught if you noticed it right away. Again these are indicative of not running a enough QA tests on patches due to too few people or stiff pressure to release on a particular date. If I were to guess the QA team is too small, and developers who wrote the code or designed the environment are on a new project with deadlines and aren't able to assist with QA. Let me reword what I mean by not expecting change. As things stand, there may not be incentive enough to change, considering the business model. Of course if they start seeing revenue decreases they may try to address it. Assuming they identify the reasons correctly. One way not to notice people jumping ship, without a subscription of some kind, is having increasing revenue through better marketing and increasing content (more DLCs). You would see things going well and your efforts paying off, indicating your are doing everything well, at least on your financial report. The non return buyers would not get noticed. It's a fallacy that won't exist forever. Especially with a niche market like a train sim, you'll max out new customers. But by that point you've already sold the company for a nice return based on some years of great growth. I could very well be wrong, but from basic research I did on this company, their business method is buying stale software and extracting more juice out of it. This requires thriftiness and creating new marketing channels. As in expanding to consoles, using game engine cores, and releasing more content. Maybe great for business but this is not a group of founders who are train enthusiasts working hard for years on what they love. I may be assuming too much, so just thought.
QA is a major issue for TSW and has been for some time. But unless QA is literally not finding any bugs then the state of the software being sent to QA as "finished" must be terrible in the first place.
At this point I would be happy to view these older routes as abandonware. Still better then making them even worse with updates. DTG JD Is there a statement of the Preservation Team about how this update could be released in such a bad shape?
Which is why DTG need to make sure that the product is in a good condition before sending it to QA in the first place. It's a shame that this keeps happening. DTG say they learn but it's hard to see it consistently.
I mean if a update has to many bugs it should not be released. Does not matter how many bugs QA found and how many could be fixed. If it is still too buggy then rather wait a few more weeks.
I'm not going to put out a 'statement', but obviously we don't want to put things out which are going to impair people's enjoyment of a route, and I'm sorry it's done that for you. I'd argue that the updates mean it's a net-positive effect on the route, but obviously it's open to interpretation and we don't want to be in a position where this is even a discussion. We are in the process of bringing in a beta group for Xbox (and eventually Playstation a little later down the line) which will help the team to support in particularly updates which have far-reaching consequences across multiple routes. These sorts of updates too.
Well, JD, generally we expect an update to improve a route, meaning by that (1) fixing existing bugs and (2) adding newer features introduced since the route was first released. But what we do NOT expect is updates which make things worse, which add bugs. This is pretty blatantly the case with Rapid Transit, with the horrible PIS screen foul-up. And one does have to ask, "How could ANYONE have failed to notice this?" And not merely some QA or Beta tester from the instant he first looked at the 1442, but for that matter the folks on the Preservation Crew before they even sent the build over for testing?
Updates are supposed to fix and improve a route. Not introduce new bugs and issues. I mean you can't tell me that nobody noticed the PIS issue in the RT Talent 2. This is getting ridiculous that these obvious errors still get released anyway. How does something like that get released and missed before sending it to QA?
Im gonna be honest here..Ive never expereiced this issues on console..sooo this might just be a PC thing or something
I agree 100%, its getting ridiculous. And now we are supposed to believe a "Xbox Beta Team" that will happen sometime in the future is going to make things better? Nothing of this has anything to do with buggy updates and releases. What would actually help would be some actual testing. A single guy with a bit of passion for the game would have found all these bugs within minutes by the way. Its not rocket science to notice a broken PIS and no sound on a loco or a constantly sounding crossing, but for some reason DTG keeps making it sound like rocket science. And sorry JD but i think this is not "open to interpretation". This update was a big mess and made many things worse. How can something like this be released after all this talk and the repeated promise to "do better". Also, as you can see many people instantly noticed these errors and bug. I believe DTG does not want to put out updates that make things worse...but maybe then do some proper or even basic testing before release and delay updates that are still containing many bugs? Sorry but like others have already said...its getting ridiculous in my humble opinion.
Not disagreeing these shouldn't have been spotted. What I was saying was that other updates, like the PZB improvements, mean the route is in a more playable state than previously. The PIS fix is currently in the build for the post-SoS update for review.
Let's be honest here, it's not an 'improvement' to PZB, it's a fix to something that was broken by the Rush Hour update nine months ago, which could have easily been avoided with some basic QA back then.
It's becoming the obvious that there's a number of staff at DTG who have zero passion, zero pride, zero attention to detail and zero care in their work. It's the only explanation on why the RT update was ever sent to QA and declared ready for release. It's also blatantly obvious that the culture at DTG is rotten and management don't give a hoot. And that goes all the way up to Adam and Matt. If I (and I suspect many others) produced work that was this substandard in my field of work I wouldn't be employed by this time Monday morning. The sooner there is meaningful competition in the train sim market the better, because this is becoming a really bad joke and feels like groundhog Day.
After more than 8 months playing TSW2 on PS4 and quite some money spent in addon DLCs, I have to confess: Every upcoming update gives me the shivers. 1.60, 1.70, 1.80/81/82/83 ......... "What´s gonna be broken next?" Now I´ve got glowing number plates and DB emblems on AI BR 112?! And that´s trivial amongst other bugs. There´s a word in German: "Verschlimmbesserung", like "worse bettering", if you try a translation, and I find that unacceptable. DTG, you must get your QA act together!
If you agree these should have been spotted by DTG then my next question would be how could it happen these were neither spotted by the Preservation Crew nor by the QA (that I hope exist) and just throw at the customers like so many times before? Then the question would be: How are you guys going to prevent this from happening again? What action was taken? This is what professional companies do. And from personal experience in QA I know it takes hours or days and not weeks or even months to take action. At least that's how it should work with such obvious errors. Also I guess you mean the PZB bug? Introduced by a other "update" around a year ago and now finally fixed although the missing sounds are still not fixed?
I am as bemused as everyone else by the failure to notice obvious issues in updates, but the incredible delays in releasing a fix I think are directly linked to keeping all platforms in synch. If we were all on PC, i.e. Epic or Steam, update timing would be more flexible, but the closed systems, X-box and Playstation, are very restrictive on updates (and external patches are impossible) and there may be no easy fix. Insulting DTG team members will not help. At least PC users have access to patches for some issues, such as the RT PZB
I dont think this is a problem that keeps DTG from delivering a better product since the old TSXXXX (now TSC) was always PC only and suffered the same amount of bugs, the same long standing issues and the same long delays until stuff was fixed (if ever). The problem is the QA and Dev Process at DTG and not that TSW is also available on consoles. But yes, we should not insult individual DTG Staff and im glad that DTG JD is taking part in this thread.
Why is it always assumed that problems like the above were not noticed as opposed to being noticed but not deemed worth holding up the raft of updates to fix now rather than addressing afterward among the next updates? Welcome to the world of management, making tricky command decisions -- for example, choosing between displeasing the people who get angry when releases are delayed for more work vs those who get angry when releases are prompt but less polished. And there are always many bugs in every game, and every head honcho at every development house has to evaluate which to fix now, which to fix later, and which aren't worth the time and cost to fix and the players will just have to ignore them. EVERY game. We all have our wants and priorities, and it's always good to point the problems out, but good grief. Raging and tantrums and inventing baseless reasons for attacking the staff is going way too far. Gratification isn't always instant, disappointment is part of life, and the ability to cope with both is a good life skill to have.
While I agree with you in general, and am bemused over the caterwauling over trivial matters, you have to admit that the RT/1442 affair goes well beyond that; the misfit door and buggered PIS screen go past "trivia" into "blatant, horrible mistakes that never should have been released." And that on top of the buggered PZB from the last update, which approached "game-breaking."
I picked up Rapid Transit on sale at some point but haven't yet dipped into it, so I'm not qualified to comment on specifics. In general, issues with atmosphere and cosmetics don't bother me so much; I may wince, but if it doesn't affect actual gameplay, I can ignore it. Others, it clearly bothers more, and that's fine. My point is that we don't know what wasn't spotted, or what was spotted but someone decided that it's not worth holding up and rebuilding this huge patch for as opposed to putting the fix in the next one. Patches to fix things broken in previous patches are also not that rare in other games. C'est la vie. My personal bugaboo is broken gameplay. Every journey, scenario, and service should be completable. Or sidequest, depending on the game. While I understand that DTG can't possibly manually play every single service in the game, I do think they need to increase the ratio of human to automated runthroughs, and also improve the automation to better reflect human gameplay, as it seems many of these kind of problems are missed simply by the AI driving being more efficient than a human can possibly be. Not worth blowing a blood vessel over, though, and certainly not worth embarrassing myself by throwing a tantrum and disrespecting the team over. Constructive, not destructive, is the way.
For £25 a shout for most of the route DLC, they should be doing better. Mention was made the other day of the "Dovetail Flywheel" when it comes to churning stuff out. The public face we see are the people who are enthusiastic and maybe a little bit knowledgeable about how trains and railways work, but does that extend all the way down to Joe Bloggs on the shop floor? You also need people who know how railway stuff works and have the ability to translate that into working computer code. We have already seen the ball dropped with the various shortcomings that the release version of SoS has shipped with. Promises that items like missing track joint sound will be fixed have to be offset by looking at the state BML is still in, nearly a year after release. Perhaps lazy is too strong a word to describe the culture behind TSW but it comes close and putting stuff out "as is" with vague assurances, rather than owning the problem and taking a decision to delay a few weeks is at best lackadaisical, at worst inept. As said previously, this is not one guy in his study working in spare time but a *professional* software house. The best competition at the moment is either Run 8 (for American stuff), if you can stomach the ancient graphics or indeed TSC with some of the excellent third party offerings by the likes of Bossman. As I said a day or two ago, the more I get back into TSC, the less likely I am to jump back into TSW. Let's face it, who wants to drive a steam loco 35 dreary miles from Crewe to Liverpool in a flawed game interpretation, when you can take said steam 106 miles from Crewe to Holyhead or 80 miles from Newport to Shrewsbury. In some ways I wouldn't be sorry to see a line drawn under TSW and DTG turn their attention to updating TSC, to facilitate features like all day timetables etc.
I am waiting for the day Simrail comes out. It's good it's coming to consoles as well and I concur with what you said
Dont you think, that when they think its ok for us to wait almost a year (!) before they fix the PZB on a route, and if they think its ok that they never (over 1 year) fix the sound of a loco...that they would have a customer base which does not care if a update is delayed a few weeks before they release one with 20 new bugs? Everyone knows how buggy TSW2 ist and the last thing many would like is more bugs. So a short "hey, we have found some big issues and want to fix them first so the update has to be delayed another month" would have bothered more then 2 people (customers)? Also. If they, as you claim, could have been spotted before release...why did DTG not tell us about it? Like "Hey, here is the update, it has some known issues but we are figuring out a fix already"? Do you think its a smart business decision to have your QA appear that unfit infront of your customers instead of just telling eceryone that there will be some bugs with the new update? Then people who cant stand these new bugs simply turn of auto-update and wait for a fix. I dont think these are "tricky command decisions", especially for a companie like DTG with a history of bad QA. Also, "Constructive" criticism with the biggest focus on being nice and not offending anyone becomes useless at some point. At some point a customer has the right to be direct and confronting the issue head on, without nice word and flowers (but not insulting of course).
Remind me how many months ago was it that we had a state of the game stream and Matt promised that things would get better, that a new QA director would shake things up and that senior management had once again put quality at the forefront? 2 possibly 3? And then they have the nerve to release yet another broken PC update? If Matt or Adam have the nerve to come on the next roadmap and promise things are going to improve they may as well just show a recording of the last one for all anyone will believe them. Ive sat with SoS in my basket but after this debacle it's been removed as I won't be giving DTG a penny more until real change is seen and not just "promised" Angry and frustrated is an understatement on how I'm feeling right now
At least DTG try to improve their products to the best of their ability. Rivet games on the other hand don't care how their products release and just refuse to improve their previous dlc's. Although it doesn't seem that DTG ever learn unfortunately
Right now from where I'm sitting where RT has received 2 updates in a row which has actually made the route worst. I'm not sure no action is actually worse.
I wonder what is happening with these beta teams DTG said were going to be implemented? Have they done anything? Perhaps they are in place which begs the question did they test the preservation updates? DTG's move to have the Roadmap every month instead of fortnightly was a shrewd move to keep us quiet. I said at the time having a monthly Roadmap is no problem but there needs to be a Q/A session fortnightly to give the customer base a say. I can also remember Sam saying on stream that DTG was a great place to work and then said in the next sentence that DTG lost a few testers to Team 17, can't that great then eh? Either DTG are totally incompetent or they did indeed know about these bugs and they thought that if you can still complete the journey they will release it. For me both are unacceptable, they should only be releasing the updates that have been 'fixed', 'updated', and any with bugs outstanding should be worked on. Matt and Adam have to explain this. With Adam saying his team completed these updates at the beginning of DEC 21, cause looking at it now he rushed it and his team don't seem as good as people think.
I hope DTG will address how so many bugs could slip into the latest updates despite them basically being tested since half a year... And i hope they tell us how they plan to prevent this next time. For me the worst bug is the crossing sound in HRR that you can hear all across the map. That kill immersion so much, just like the still missing rolling sounds on the RT 442 and 182. Silent trains...great. Oh, and the glowing DB logos. I would laugh about that if it would not be so sad.
If They addressed this a couple of months ago and promised there would do better. Next PC update was this one and well you know the rest.
I hope to live in a world where tsw Qa is achieved, A world, whereby no train enthusiast is aggrieved, Where pzb works, where train doors will shut, Where the qa teams eyes, aren’t acting half cut I hope to live in a world where tsw qa is achieved A bug free release a community received Everything worked, no new things were broke, A community of train lovers with no bad words spoke.
im very happy that DTG now is makin more updates before we doesnt had much updates so thats the right way to polish the product and sorting out bugs and we have to look to the next update what will be fixed and so on
