Busier Timetables Vs Authenticity: Updated Community View Regarding Sos And All Future Routes

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by cloudyskies21, May 22, 2022.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Jeez. Fences and clickity-clack?

    I have come down on occasion on DTG where I really thought they weren't coming up to scratch, but this is just trivia of the can't-ever-be-satisfied variety. It's as if this mob watch preview streams with the Webb Telescope just to find nits to pick.

    Instead of the deserved "I'm impressed, bravo" for all DTG have accomplished in their first essay into both steam and a seriously vintage route, we get the reaction of a bratty teenager who got a new car for her sixteenth birthday and whines that it's the wrong color.
     
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  2. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    So jointed track sounds arent important to you and thats ok, its also ok to be of the view that jointed tracks are an important part of the overall immersion in taking you back to the 1950s Uk railways. Its not nitpicking, its having a different perspective.

    Its not so long ago that the idea of a rainbow coloured container had you foaming at the mouth and demanding only prototypical liveries. Liveries you could only catch a glimpse of as you pass a train heading in the opposite direction as opposed to a sound you should be hearing for the entire run.
     
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  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Foaming?

    All I said was that it was unwise for a games company to include politically controversial content.
     
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean track noise would be a basic part of a steam route set in the 50s though. I wasn't alive at that time but it would be a basic part of any route really unless the route is grinded rail. Nobody is acting like a teenager. This has been an issue way before Spirit Of Steam released and we have every right to point it out. If you don't think it might be a big issue that is fine but there is nothing wrong with pointing it out since it should be a basic feature. It's not nitpicking either. Audio is a important part of immersing the player and track noise adds to that immersion
     
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  5. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    The fences, I'm not concerned about, not a deal breaker at all for me, though as a praise, love seeing those telegraph poles!

    Now no clickety-clack sounds? That is a massive immersion breaker! as I posted somewhere earlier, a Train Simulator with no rail joint sounds??? Come on!

    If you think that's nit-picking, fine, but I'd of thought a train running on a track would require sound to enjoy the experience, oh well, each to our own I guess
     
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  6. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Except it isnt politically controversial, but Im not getting into old OTP arguments.

    Track joint sounds are immersion breaking for many and just because they arent to you that doesnt make it nitpicking.
     
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  7. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I am very pleased that there are others here who agree that the immersion breaking side of not having track joint sounds is important. I just hope DTG do check these threads and actually look to resolve this before release or on a day 1 patch (hence why we have a Tuesday release).
     
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  8. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    you cant hear the track joints in the cab over 10mph?

    So even with an open backed cab, the in cab sounds are still way too attenuated like they are in pretty much all the electric loco's and EMU's i've driven in the game.
     
  9. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the comments, Paul only seemed to say that track sounds are in, that he’s spoken to Matt, and that you won’t hear track sounds in a real cab over 10mph (speaking from his own experience). What he did not say is that Matt talked to him about track sounds (from my understanding). paul.pavlinovich, any chance you could clear this up for us?
     
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  10. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    But as stated in other threads, if you watch the streams where the camera does a run-by or moved adjacent to the rolling stock there are still no track sounds, no clickety clack of jointed track and nothing going through points or crossings. In that area of the train any loco sounds would not drown out the track noise and even on the loco, what about when it is coasting and not under power (assuming the safety valves are not going off constantly). Besides, Mark One coaches running on B1 bogies and jointed track were loud in themselves...

    IMHO we really need to see some commitment from DTG on this matter, not just half baked vague assurances that it will be looked at but no real idea when or even if it can be fixed. Not good enough in a £25 commercial project produced by a professional software house.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2022
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  11. steve1023

    steve1023 New Member

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    Authenticity everytime for me. Not interested in the slightest about padding out the timetable with non-authentic rolling stock. I won't touch London commuter - too many services, West Cornwall is just ridiculous with the NTP layers in and diesel legends with It's pre-tops westerns, TOPs 08 and 101 with NSE era set numbers under the catenery FFS.....

    I would be happy to pay for further steam loco packs to supplement the route if they are authentic, and also a stand-a-lone 08 shunter pack (provided the proper modifications are made to truly represent the class as they were in the 50s)

    Steve
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if dtg have the sounds but won't bother implementing them like they did with the harlem line leaving modders to add sounds that are already in the files. I may not be interested in steam, but this is getting ridiculous to be honest
     
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  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Out of interest I just took the 9F out for a spin on Port Road in TSC. The track sounds were quite audible in cab view even under power and with the safety valves blowing off.
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of nice comments about the route and I can't see that there will be many (apart from the usual suspects) who would disagree that a lot of time and enthusiasm has gone into the route, infrastructure, buildings and the stock. There is no doubt in many ways it is a beautiful sight.

    However I really don't think the lack of track sounds is trivial, I certainly don't classify myself as one of the "never satisfied variety" I have been accused of being completely the opposite in the past. However something as fundamental to the experience of being on the railways in the 1950's as the track sounds are, is likely to be a complete immersion killer. Imagine removing them from NTP, it would make a huge difference to the experience.

    However, it is obvious that they haven't been left out on purpose so I don't think there is a need for conspiracy theories. It is obviously an unintended error and hopefully it will be put right if they can, I certainly can't see any reason to suggest they will now leave the sounds out on purpose.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If they aren't able to implement them by release, hopefully they can after release with the down time that they are taking to improve the game
     
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  16. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well hopefully for us and them as I do believe that with the effort which has gone into much of the route and stock, it doesn't deserve to be spoilt by an error. We will have to wait and see I guess.
     
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  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    If, as Paul P reports, they are in the sound mix but inaudible, then it would seem it's really just a question of pushing the faders
     
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  18. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    I would agree that the track sounds are a fairly minor problem, but just because it is one doesn't mean it's worth ignoring. Audio mixing shouldn't be that difficult, it should just be a few numbers that can be changed. Fact is it isn't like getting better track sounds are going to mean that we suddenly aren't going to get the fireman, scripting that's a much more extensive task, and likely involve a very different set of people.
     
  19. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    When looking at the well made northern trans pennine and tees valley line its clearly not a matter of capability.

    Not sure what dtgs problems are. London commuter doesnt have properly worked out flange sounds, but it has joint sounds. Same for the class 313 and harlem.

    Somewhat of annoying the need to test all dtg products with a quality checklist after release. And for all goodness it doesnt even get fixed because its not gamebraking.
     
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  20. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Track sounds are being investigated - in terms of implementation of any changes, to set expectations, they won't be in for release.

    In terms of how this happened, we are still investigating. The track joints are there and set up as they should be, but are currently not making a sound - whether it's something overriding the noise, or a tooling error, at this stage we need time to work it through.

    We need to understand where the error is first up, before we can remedy it, but the team are working on it. Again, this isn't a guarantee of a fix, but a commitment that we're working on it.
     
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  21. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Hi JD, appreciate the response you have provided.

    Can you advise why this isn't a guaranteed fix, when all of your other route DLC has this implemented please? I am sure this must have been raised through one of your development teams when it didn't seem quite right?

    It is after all a Train Simulation created by people who love Trains right?
     
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  22. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate the response JD but still begs the question as to why this was not picked up at an early stage of testing.

    Possibly have we hit this urban legend of the UE4 sound channel limits?

    Will consider for a bit whether this is enough for me to reinstate my preorder.
     
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  23. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    The answer would be that whilst we're investigating, we don't know whether the issue is solvable without remaking the whole route. Once we've diagnosed the source of the problem, I can provide more information.

    I would imagine this has emerged late in the process of the route build/development (which may help us to narrow down the cause), which is why it wasn't picked up earlier.
     
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  24. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    thanks JD, not the news we want to hear but at least we can make an informed decision.
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well I have now decided to rebuy though a bit of a conflict as having refunded once, I doubt Steam would look kindly on a second occasion. Therefore a bit of a leap of faith that, unlike BML and various other forgotten DLC, DTG will keep their word and actually fix the track sound. The AI fireman not quite such a bother to me now, as I remarked earlier in the day some earlier TSC steam suffers from the bionic stoker syndrome too.
     
  26. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    Could someone from Dovetail please confirm that the locomotives and stock from Spirit of Steam will make rail joint sounds if run on Northern Trans Pennine or Tees Valley routes via scenario planner?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  27. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Let me check on that one for you. It sounds like an environment issue, rather than a loco issue, so I'd imagine it'd be okay. Will confirm though!

    EDIT: someone in the team has played through, and can confirm that the track joint sounds are there for 8Fs and Jubilees playing on TVL and NTP.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  28. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    While we are on the subject of track sounds and immersion - has anyone noticed if the prototypical 'grinding' noise from the sleepers/trackbed is present when trackside as a large loco passes slowly? Or for that matter, journal ring? Not nit-picking, honest injun!
     
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  29. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    That's wonderful news, thanks for replying. It's back on my day one shopping list. I hope there's a fix for Liverpool to Crewe before long.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2022
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  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Happy to buy the route with some coins missing in a fair trade off for some sounds missing .
     
  31. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    So, what are people's experiences on the new SOS route solely based on the timetable mode? Additionally, was wondering if anyone's previous views have changed since playing the route themselves?
     
  32. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

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    I think timetable is quite nice tbh. It's nice not every service is the same as you get a range of different consists which go different lengths along the route.
    It's obviously not the busiest we've seen but it is true to life which leaves gaps for any future DLC that could be made.
    Overall very pleased with the whole thing.
     
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  33. BlackSkyuk

    BlackSkyuk Active Member

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    I think it's very poor, the routes fills dead most of the time. You can see the passenger timetable in my sig below
     
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  34. JellyScrub

    JellyScrub Active Member

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    I think that loco DLC for SoS is a must. It will remain quite bare if there arent extra services added by new locos in the coming months and years.
     
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  35. JellyScrub

    JellyScrub Active Member

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    FYI your SOS timetable takes you to the Boston Sprinter timetable
     
  36. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm yes it's a shame, it's not exactly a rural branch line. I don't hold no interest in the time period of steam for the game, but if this was a modern version of the route with such a timetable I'd be very disappointed - it feels a bit of a step in the wrong direction post-rush hour routes.

    I respect people's opinions of waiting for DLC instead of a busier timetable right away, but I do worry that the promise of future DLC is always a risk factor - how long for the DLC, or what happens if circumstances change?
     
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  37. BlackSkyuk

    BlackSkyuk Active Member

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    Thanks, it's now been updated to the correct one.
     
  38. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    This is why I don't understand the decision - surely better to put in fake services for now, then swap them out when DLC is released. Or provide 2 timetables and let people choose - "zombie apocalypse" or "use your imagination"
    Buying it now in the hope that in 2 or 3 years you MIGHT get some more locos to fill the timetable (and they have gone out of their way on all the streams to say that they have in NO WAY committed to any more) seems like a massive punt and definitely not a selling point.
     
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  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    From my point of view I purchased it to encourage them, plus I thought/think that it looks like a lovely route. My initial impressions are promising if they fix the bugs. Personally whilst I don't like to see unrealistic services I would have been happy to see a Jubilee or 8F and 3 or 4 mark 1's representing stopping services which would be replaced in the future by a more suitable DLC.

    I notice though they have put in Chester to Liverpool services, these were local services and certainly wouldn't have been made up of mark 1 carriages and I doubt hauled by a Jubilee either, certainly not in 1958.

    There has been a paucity of loco DLC lately, if they don't produce any for this route and indeed for other future routes of all eras then I will simply stop using TSW.
     
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  40. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    I want busier timetables, but not to the point where something strains credulity. I want authenticity, but not to the point where a route is totally lifeless and not fun to play.

    Take SPG as one example. Supposedly, it is busier in TSW than real life. If that's true, then I think the right decision was made. Seeing some extra freight trains does not break immersion for me. Then, you have the C40 DLC. It also adds a freight car, some scenarios, and a few timetable services. Really a perfect idea for a DLC; lots of extra value, but nothing that's crazy missed if you don't buy it.

    NEC-BP and LBN are both substantially busy. if we ever get DLC for these routes, then I would buy them, but the routes stand alone well just as they are.

    The 313 DLC is an interesting case. How many people would want to play ECW if the 313 services were totally absent? So, they really had to be included with the 377. Then of course the 313 couldn't add any services when it finally came out, but I think it still brings a lot of value, and has the LBN layer as well. How many of us would have been happy if DTG said, here's ECW that you can buy, there are no 313 services, but you can buy them later? Also it took like forever for that DLC to show up.

    I think the bottom line is that DTG may have taken the wrong lesson from SEHS. The point isn't so much that a route should be "held back" just so that a DLC can add services. If a route is generally busy in reality, then it should be when it is released; AND, any DLC should strive to have new services, as well, although it doesn't have to be a lot.

    I don't know very much about SOS. Is the problem that the route would have been much busier in reality than is currently represented? Could some extra services have been reasonably represented with the rolling stick that is currently available?

    In general, though, I don't support the idea of buying any route that can only be "complete" with the additional purchase of DLC.
     
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  41. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with you here. Realism obviously should always be the main priority where applicable, but at the end of the day, this is still a video game which needs to keep me excited and engaged. And to me, a route that offers varied content everytime I play, such as adverse signals, varied services, AI traffic and replayability etc, and importantly, provide services that I know will not be exactly a repeat as the rest of the timetable, is important for me.

    I respect that some players don't want unrealistic services as it may ruin immersion from their point of view, and I totally respect such views, however, what about quieter timetables for a real-life route that was and/or still is busy?

    A great example provided - this is exactly why I'm not a fan of waiting for later DLCs to fill out a route in this context. But, if a route is already somewhat busy in the first place to keep me occupied, then I'm quite happy to wait for DLC later to add freshness and replayability.

    I had already completed a lot of services with the 377 on ECW before the 313 came out, but was quite happy to replay such services already done with the new rolling stock. Surely this is a win-win situation? The timetable was already full from the beginning, but those who wished to wait for the 313 to come out could finally play ECW with the new rolling stock.

    Just to add as well, the ironic thing with ECW's timetable is that it was and still is missing all the London Victoria-Eastbourne and/or Ore services which are operated by 377s.

    While I'm not familiar with the era or route, the lack of AI traffic at places like Crewe is a real immersion breaker for me.
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It certainly would have been busier having had a look at my 1954 passenger timetable.

    If you take a weekday going in the Liverpool direction there are about 17 fast services between Crewe and Liverpool, some non-stop some stopping at one or two stations, these originate from Euston, Birmingham and Bristol mainly.

    There are only around 8 or so stopping services between the two stations and some of those don't stop at every station. Plus there is a early morning service which just goes to Hartford and also an early morning service which seems to be an all stations from Runcorn to Liverpool.

    There are more services on the Runcorn to Liverpool section, there was a regular service back then between Chester and Liverpool which ran up via Helsby and Frodsham (as an aside this was withdrawn and I think has recently been re-instated). There are about 35 of these and are a mixture, for example a few start from Allerton (probably worked by a tank engine I would imagine) and quite a few start at Runcorn. Some run fast from Runcorn to Liverpool, I assume these might have been express services from North Wales probably Llandudno, Bangor or Holyhead or possibly services on the north and west route (the marches line) from South Wales presumably. I haven't delved any deeper yet.

    So actually looking at that the Runcorn to Liverpool section could be quite a bit busier, maybe the Crewe to Runcorn section not as busy but both still quite a bit busier than implied in the DLC as it stands.

    There is certainly a lot of scope for many add-ons to bring this route alive if ambition and imagination reign supreme.

    Also there are more opportunities for AI traffic, at Crewe there would have been the services going off to Manchester, Stoke, Chester and North Wales plus the express services up the WCML to Carlisle and Scotland as well as the Blackpool and Preston services which I think are represented. Also at Liverpool you had the Chat Moss and Cheshire Lines Committee routes to Manchester, Sheffield and the North East plus local services in the St.Helen's direction. However where do you stop as I think you can only see so much of a Jubilee and a rake of mark 1's before it gets a bit tedious and doesn't actually necessarily add anything to the experience even if it appears busier.

    As an aside, in the fantasy world of extensions which will never happen, a nice little network could be enabled if the line via Helsby to Chester and the line from Chester to Crewe were added.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2022
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  43. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    It's a great idea and I am all for more services/AI on the route. The problem here is that Xbox/PS4 players have to be included, which is a shame as they are not powerful enough and are holding up the progression of this Sim/game. If they can remove access for Xbox one/PS4 players, we can move forward and hopefully start to see some quality and quantity of services too.
     
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  44. stewartforgie

    stewartforgie Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how many of those slating DTG for lack of realism actually drive the unfitted trains at the real life speed limit of 25mph Irrespective of posted line speed? I have watched many You tube videos and have yet to see even one adhere to real life limits when driving an unfitted freight. Maybe a little less criticism would be in order. If more realism is required, then perhaps it should start at home.
     
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  45. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree.
     
  46. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    That’s something I think was missed in the tutorial’s or dare I say the manual, more info on the wagons and the speed limits that apply to them. As someone who has been looking for that information, it’s not as easy to find as you think, I’m sure the information is easy to find if you know what your looking for but there so much contradictory info out there it’s hard to sort out the correct info for the year / region. Same with the headcodes too.
     
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  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think that VMAX (the maximum allowed velocity of the consist being driven) is something that should be dynamically included in the HuD similar to the german dynamic speed limits. Having the line speed maintained with the red dot and the VMAX indicated with a blue one shouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility
     
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  48. BlackSkyuk

    BlackSkyuk Active Member

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    My timetable for Spirit of Steam has been updated. Download link in sig.
     
  49. I'm all for authenticity but sos seems so empty! I thought the railways back then was heavily congested but it seems less busy than my local branch line. Here's a idea for dtg. Give us access to a few scenarios in the scenario designer so we could just change the locos/consists for existing services to suit the choice of the user.

    I wouldn't mind seeing some re liveried class 08s 101s 33s even some 37s. I know some of them didn't arrive until the next decade but just because sos is based in the 50s doesn't mean it has to stay in the 50s.

    Or maybe dtg could cut through some of the red tape so more third party creators can bring us some more locos/rolling stock. Like they do with train simulator.

    I think that's the main problem. Train simulator was made for the railway enthusiasts whereas tsw is more commercialised for maximum profit.
     
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  50. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting in the sheer variety of services

    Okish in overall traffic (can feel somewhat barren sometimes)

    Poor in bugs (random spads) and keeping to time on some services (I was 20 minutes late one one due to being a heavy fast stuck behind a slow uphill)
     
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