Dovetail, Trust, And Myself - An Essay

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Doomotron, Jun 5, 2022.

  1. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Well if you think that TSW is dying, why are you even bothering? All of the complains I read here is "I dont get what I want because DTG is ignorant, this game could be better but only the way I want, it is not possible to enjoy this game, everyone that enjoys this game is ignoring how bad it is" etc etc.
    Feedback is important. But you lots are just spoiling the game for those who enjoy it.
    If you dont like how the game is going, leave it and have fun with the alternatives. But please stop spoiling the game for those who enjoy it.
     
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  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    You're entitled to your view but frankly you're coming across as a blinkered fanboy. Obviously not reading posts properly before jumping in to defend DTG. If you bothered to read what I wrote, TSW can be enjoyable but that is not evident in the more recent release particularly the Rush Hour routes. No one wants TSW or DTG to fail, the opposite is the case as we all have significant money invested in the product. However they need to change their ways and move forward to fix and improve the product and their processes.
     
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  3. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Broken Scenarios and broken services are game breaking bugs, these are not acceptable unless your standards are really really low.

    Especially when DTG specifically state how many scenarios are included. If 1 out 6 are broken thats 16.5%.

    There might be an argument that they cant test 400+ timetable services BUT releasing a pack with 6 scenarios and not testing them all is inexcusable. OK on occasion sometimes things break between QA and release but by then not quickly rectifying the issues on release makes it appear that they have our money & dont care about it any more.

    Take the G6 as a prime example, 5 scenarios included, 1 was borked.

    Maik Goltz from TSG stated it was tested prior to release but then something broke, he then provided a fix to TSW the same week. I've no reason to doubt him but G6 was released 2/12/21, its taken until the 30/5/22 for DTG to actually release the fix. 6 months is unacceptable especially when the delay is due to lack of testing rather than having problems rectifying the issue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  4. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Tell people who have genuine concerns about issues in a game they love and in some cases invested heavily in, should just be quiet and uninstall the game because reading about these issues on the forums spoils YOUR enjoyment of the game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  5. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Well look: If a new player comes here, he will only find permanent nagging about small (and also bigger) stuff, but 0 appreciation for the game or the devs. And please stop putting words in my mouth. I just said: Feedback is important, repeated Feedback is important. But what I read here is basically "Everything is bad because it doesnt meet my expectations and therefore DTG is to blame for that". That is all what I can read in here.
    Get your expectations sorted out.
     
  6. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    My expectations are absolutely fine, if I buy a game which advertises that it includes 1089 services and 6 scenarios then I expect to be able to complete all 1089 services & 6 scenarios.

    If I buy a game which claims Train Sim World 2 uses real-world data to accurately replicate the performance, sounds and feel of real trains. Then I expect it to do exactly what it states.

    If I buy a game which claims Highly detailed, feature-rich, driving cabs with accurate true-to-life performance and handling then I dont expect a 72 tonne steam locomotive to suddenly jump into the air and derail, nor do I don't expect it have a broken safety feature.

    You claim Im putting words into your mouth but you said exactly that, if you dont like it go play something else.

    Redacted
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  7. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    That's a good post, JD, but the only thing I would put to question is that releasing a product with known issues (some of which aren't as "smaller-grade" as you suggest) does kind of give the impression that DTG's primary focus is solely to satisfy those with the lowest levels of expectation. The majority audience who (much like myself) may not be aware that there are actually things wrong with what they're purchasing...those who pay the bills, so to speak.
    That's probably an acceptable standard within "the realities of game development" for a generic game, but I just don't think it's the correct attitude to take when trying to develop a simulated experience that relies heavily on things being correct.
     
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  8. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    If you can equate world peace with 1 employee testing 6 scenarios (which is their actual job as a QA tester) to make sure they can be driven, I'd like some of what you're having please :D
    No we don't. And to be honest, we don't need to. The same way I don't care that the mechanic was having a bad day because his wife left him and that's why the brakes on my car didn't work when I drove out of the garage. It's called reasonable expectations of a purchased service and business professionalism.
    And in truth incidents like that can happen with us fallible humans (this actually happened to me leaving a KwikFit in the early 90's!) - but if it happened to 25% of the garages customers for over 5 years, I'd suggest they made major changes to get it sorted out.

    I've released a couple of products with issues, it's kind of inevitable with such complex products - but I've also felt physically sick when they've been reported and made it my number one priority to get them sorted as quickly as possible (within a day or 2).
    There may well be staff at DTG that feel this way too when they release yet another broken product.. but the people that control the money and time don't appear to.
     
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  9. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Redacted
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  10. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Dude, I never said the game is perfect. Stop with putting words in my mouth.
     
  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Redacted
     
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  12. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    As soon as one puts labels in a discussion such as Trolls, Fanboys, or Ambassadors, l stop reading those comments. Many have very valid points, but let’s keep the discussion at a mature level and leave the name calling and labeling out of the conversation.
     
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  13. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry using a title of ambassador as a label (which they themselves use at every opportunity) is now putting a label on someone?
     
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  14. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    The service can be completed as I have done it. If you cant, you either did not wait for the signal becoming green and waiting for a train to pass or b) you did it a different way than me. Stop being a [removed - JD - language] for a moment and accept the fact that not everybody has the same experience as you have. Just because I could complete that service and you didnt doesnt mean I lied nor does that mean that you are incompetent or it is you to blame. How about stop being an intolerant person that is unable to accept the fact that people have different views and experiences with the game?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2022
  15. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Im not being a [removed - language - JD] the signaller said off path meaning it will never change. Had it said wait for signal to change youd have a valid point.

    The service cant be completed its broken end of.
     
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  16. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    It can be completed in my experience. Fullstop. Its not broken for me. Fullstop. How about stopping generalising something like this and speak for your own experience?
     
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  17. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I completed that service as well though. No idea why it didn’t work for you. Most curious.
     
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  18. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you are also lying now because it obviously cant be completed and is totally broken like the rest of the game because redrev says it.
     
  19. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    In the context you presented it, yes, it did seem you were using it as a label since it was used in conjunction with FanBoys. If that was not your intent, then it wasn’t clear in your statement. If not your intent, then my apologies.
     
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  20. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I have never stated the rest of game is broken. And so you completed a service prior to the update which broke it. Big congrats
     
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  21. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I completed it after the update. Just for your information. But hey, you seem to be quite well informed on when I do services ingame.
     
  22. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If anyone can provide evidence that it can be completed as of today then I'll accept I'm in the wrong. But considering I had an email from tech support confirming it is a known issue and can't be completed the. I'll take DTG own word against that of some one who refuses to accept the game has severe issues, thank you
     
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  23. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    What service is it?
     
  24. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Its the freight service starting at 06:33 am.

    Dude, I do see that the game has issues. Stop putting things in my mouth I never said. I said, the games has flaws and issues.
     
  25. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Redacted
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  26. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying, but its not the point though is it? You drive all that way get to a mile away from the destination and boom you are told to go via (a marker) 11km's behind you. Oh hold on I'll reverse all the way back to the 11km mark pass it then go forward again. Also hope to god I get green signals all the way. These services need listing and they need to be sorted as soon as possible. That to me is a game breaking bug as you cannot complete the journey. I'm kinda wondering how the AI manages to complete it or does it get stuck?
    People do have a right to be vocal about stuff that does not get fixed over time and Yes I know that DTG have to try and Triage stuff at the moment, in what gets fixed first..

    Hentis
     
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  27. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Well your statements suggest that the game has so many severe issues that it can be interpreted as that the whole game is broken. The way you make a fuss out of a minor bug is just unbearable.

    Regarding that special service: The problem is that the order of markers is slightly swooped up. So normally you would pass the marker near Coswig and then the Marker at Dresden-Mitte but these markers are swapped so you have to pass the marker on Dresden-Mitte before passing the marker at Coswig so that is the cause of the train basically have to go backwards. The AI is fully able to complete that service and so was I since the dispatcher still works and can do organize paths for it. Although if it works for some and doesnt work for some it might be a random thing whether you can complete it or not.

    The fact is: It is 1 service. if you change it, you basically have to re-simulate the whole timetable. So you are investing a day of work effort and money into fixing 1 service. It is understandable that not completing this special service is disappointing but its not like there are no other services to be completed. And so far it is 1 service out of 461 services that have this issue so far so... making a fuss out of this is a slight overreaction imo.
     
  28. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    #
    Which route and service, i'm happy to try it.
     
  29. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Its Dresden-Riesa, the exact service is a freight service starting at 06:33.
     
  30. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I'll try this evening on twitch. About 7pm CET
     
  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    so, seems to be working for me. I requested from signaller and got a yellow straight away. Assuming this looks like the right location?

    Screenshot (189).jpeg
     
  32. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Stating a fact that there are many severe issues is not the same as saying the whole game is broken, that is you putting words into my mouth.

    No it means rolling back the timetable to before it was broken, on release it worked fine, after an update it broke. Considering that DTG rolled back the TVL update to put back the 3 car 101 services in which covered numerous changes and was completed within a week if I recall correctly (despite not actually being a bug at all, just a game play feedback) Im fairly certain they could spend equally the same time resolving an actual bug!
     
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  33. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    No, the actual issue is at Dresden-Mitte. Try to fully complete the service.

    The slight difference between TVl and this 1 service is a) the amount of services that had to be changed are significantly more than that 1 service. Also, the TVL timetable has a lot less traffic. So a re-simulation of that timetable wouldnt be that costly compared to re-simulating the DRA timetable.

    Also you can just roll back a timetable that relies on track data, timings etc. You NEED to re-simulate it to ensure it works even if you "only" change formations. And even that can have big impacts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  34. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Hang on I guess it's not at the beginning of the scenario where redrev1917 has issue?
     
  35. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    No you need to continue the service up to Mitte station, at which point you hit a red light and your next marker is 11km behind you and you are meant to reverse all the way back, issue for me (at least) is that as soon as you hit a signal it is red and the dispatcher states you are off path so you are stuck, passing the signal results in a SPAD.
     
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  36. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    I think one answer to this is ... please release a route editor - I think if the public released their own routes a lot of attention would be drawn away from the issues described above and we would be discussing the excellent routes/locos developed by the community.
    It's been too long a wait for this, surely it can be done.
     
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  37. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Unfitted goods wagons did NOT derail when the loco was already stopped. They had inertia movement between the chain or screw couplings. But nothing like enough movement to cause them to derail.
     
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  38. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    But they can change 15 or what services and do it within a week (or just over) for something which isnt a bug so they should be able to do it for 1 service to fix an actual bug.
     
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  39. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I think Paul posted an interesting view on that derailing topic so you might have a read on that one.

    "They did it in a week" Yes, because the community became toxic and yelled at DTG. "How can DTG do something that is entirely realistic? How dare they?"

    And yes, it did a week, and it would take much longer for the DRA timetable because it is much bigger and fixing 1 service could chaos on all the other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
  40. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if your reply was aimed at me or not, but its not just one service. I have had it happen to me on several services. either mixed freight, intermodal or tanks. That service I have already logged myself in the tech forum as its listed in my broken scenarios / services channel in my discord server so yeah that does not work AS intended. As I have mentioned previous I have had 3 or 4 services that originate from Roderau Yard are the ones I have had problems with.

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/service-0633-freight-roederau-dresden.54042/

    Hentis
     
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  41. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to rewrite my message as my earlier one had a condescending/elitist tone that didn't represent my feelings.

    So, the reason I believe most bugs are not fixed is because we, (we as in we who take this game a little bit more seriously) do not represent the community at large.

    There is nothing wrong in playing this game more casually, and everyone is welcome to the hobby for me, but the main point of my post was that the people at DTG know exactly what they are doing and what audience they are trying sell this game to.

    A few examples:
    • Safety systems and signalling are basic, TPWS and approach control in the uk are a perfect example
    • Bugs related to more advanced systems are often not prioritised. For example the speedometer being inaccurate in the BR182, PZB being unusable for MONTHS on the talent or CSS being completely broken since release in SHM.
    You can notice this trend even when we don't talk about bugs but completely conscious choices being made by DTG themselves, the most obvious example being the disaster that is Hamburg-Lübeck:
    • A BR112 that looks nothing like a BR112, and without loco brake
    • Wrong Rolling Stock
    • Reskin of at the time a 2 year old loco, with the only thing not being reskinned being wrong (the displays)
    And THAT mess was among the top 10 seller of 2021.

    In a game where the bar that any given DLC has to pass is: "you can get from A to B and get a medal" is always going to be bad.

    I will always refer to this post
    Until DTG doesn't shift mentality and realises that problems like this the CSS on Sherman Hill or the wrong PZB mode on the talent are (almost) equal to you not being physically able to complete a service, I can't be optimistic about the quality of future DLC.

    Because if what they are aiming for is "oh, it's not broken you can complete a service" then the reason they didn't fix the BR182 speedo or opening the doors on the wrong side in Hagen becomes obvious.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  42. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    You will never convince the fanbois about the legitimacy of your point of view. I gave up years ago with fanbois and trainspotters. I was told once a long time back on the N3V forum. That these people didn't need a history lesson. When i pointed out that BR\WR Kings were a no go in sessions, west of Plymouth. Just go with the flow buddy, they always know best. Just like DTG and N3V, always think they know best.
     
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  43. Pinguinie

    Pinguinie Active Member

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    Well, that's not true. For example, since TSW2020 you haven't implemented a single thing that has been the highest priority in 6(?) surveys since then. Since then it has always been: MP, roles and a functioning EBULA system. None of these features were ever implemented.

    Or, even worse: tested at all and then shelved for the time being.
    The features mentioned were not yet on the roadmap list. You post polls, then write in the forum, you set priorities, and 4 years later nothing has happened. If you put projects on hold, it's perfectly okay. But as written, these weren't even made into an early alpha.


    ----

    The only thing DTG probably learned now, and only for one console, is to get beta testers. I've written before, it also works for (active) TSW2-PC players - especially for routes where there are 100 24-journeys, so there are no surprises.
     
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  44. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Or how is it with this point of view: Accept the fact the people can have different views on a game that people actually enjoy and stop calling these people fanbois. Just because you dont have an enjoyable time, you dont need to be mean to those who enjoy the game.
     
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  45. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Despite Matt & JD publicly confirming that track joint sounds arent in SoS, Paul tried telling me that they were both wrong and that they are indeed in the game (spoiler alert - they arent). So you will excuse me if I discount anything else he tries to tell us. No way at all did 1950's steam locos jump in the air and derail if they ran with unfitted good wagons, it didnt happen, laws of physics dictate otherwise.

    If you continue to try and defend the indefensible then dont by surprised when people jump to conclusions.

    Edited to clarify my comments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  46. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think we all need to take a step back for a minute.

    I don’t think the game is game breaking, to the point where I can’t play it, but at the same time, it isn’t perfect, nor is it acceptable for it to stay like this.

    The biggest issue I believe lies with QA. It clearly isn’t up to scratch, as players are finding bugs pretty much immediately after playing a service post release/update. An update should not break more things, which were not previously broken. If it does, simply do not release the update.

    All new DLCs will release with some form of bug(s), however it isn’t acceptable to have to wait 6-12 months for a fix, for that fix to break other things. Talking of new DLCs, they should all have a consistent set of working, fully functional features and safety systems.

    How on earth are new DLCs still being shipped with broken safety systems? The 377 & 387 on BML have the silent AWS issue, which still hasn’t had a fix released for it.

    So in summery, we all need to put our pitchforks down and take our rose tinted glasses off and see TSW for what it really is. Whatever your view on TSW is, a change has to happen.
     
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  47. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Three pages... We made it three pages before people started hurling slurs and insults at each other.

    We say that DTG is a joke, but sometimes I feel like we're the real fools.
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Why I feel like you didn't read the op's post. You seem to be shrugging some things off as others have pointed out to you
     
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  49. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    At least I know what to expect from an ambassador. Gotta keep getting that free dlc so say good things and just shrug of criticisms with moot points
     
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  50. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Oh hello and welcome to the world of conspiracy. "He doesnt say his real opinion just so can get free DLC".

    This thread has become a sinkhole. 80% of the people writing in here are just denying the fact that this game can be enjoyed by people. But since they say that TSW is a hell of a bugfest, nobody is able to enjoy it and only fanbois can enjoy the game and these fanbois deliberately lie to get more free DLCs.

    This is just ridiculous. Honestly.
     

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