Dovetail, Trust, And Myself - An Essay

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Doomotron, Jun 5, 2022.

  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    TSW isn't new to dtg. They been working on this game for FIVE YEARS. That isn't new
     
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  2. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Again you're putting words into people's mouths, where did anyone say Paul was concelling his opinions in order to get free DLC? Where did anyone say the game isn't enjoyable? Edit - yes someone else did.

    I said if you carry on defending the indefensible don't be surprised if people jump to conclusions. That is completely different to saying you are one.

    I appreciate English is perhaps your 2nd or 3rd language however please stop jumping to conclusions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  3. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I did not expect four pages of replies.
     
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Their expectations are just extremely low.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The use of insulting terms like "fanbois" is unhelpful. Certainly it does nothing to persuade fencesitters to come around to your point of view.
     
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  7. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Apologies I've got Tallboy on mute so never saw that one.

    Ok well I never accused Paul of that.
     
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  8. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    If people have problem with TSW2 then they are always welcome to go get another one. Oh wait, there is not another one. Unfortunately, that's the reality for most of us casual simmers. I honestly can't every go back to TSC after doing TSW2 as the interface and controls are just next level with TSW2. SimRail promised so much but they are not close to release anytime soon. DTG has gotten progressively better since TSW 2020. I had stopped playing TSW1 completely at one point because it was iffy but TSW2 was a remarkable improvement. We still get some dumb bugs but it seems they are focused on making it better by hiring a C-level exec for QA and implementing QA procedures. We are obviously not going to see any improvements soon as they are just ramping up but it will be good long time. I also liked, how they said not to expect anything from them as they focus on fixing the house. I am not giving up on them yet. I have sticked through with them from RailWorks days and will keep betting on them. Hope we get more 3rd parties buying into TSW2 and we get better routes.
     
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  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And buffers to soak up the in train forces!
     
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well ambassadors do get dlc's for free. That itself isn't a lie and frankly from what has been said, alot of the criticisms have been shrugged off
     
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  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well this thread has been a very unedifying read!

    I can understand the frustrations as I have gone from having a carefree attitude towards to TSW to using it very little now, much of that is because I find TSC fits my needs much more comprehensively. I have changed my view on an editor, before I would argue it wasn't needed, why do you need it with service mode? However I have totally changed my mind, especially being a rivet counting, borish purist I find I want to make my own scenarios and the scenario planner is pretty useless to be frank.

    Promising new releases like SOS do seem to be spoilt by bugs, many of which do appear careless.

    However whilst it has problems I wouldn't say it is as awful as a newcomer reading this thread would garner after reading it. I would say there definitely needs some thought at DTG's offices as to how they can best overcome shooting themselves in the foot with virtually every release. However it is clear TSW is popular so presumably many are managing to enjoy it.

    I don't think hurling insults and labels at each other, whatever stance you take is helpful. Presumably we are all lovers of trains or at least simulation games and I am sure we all want the same thing, an enjoyable and useable piece of software. I don't think falling out over what is supposed to be a pleasurable pastime is a good outcome.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  12. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but talk about "derailing" ...
     
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  13. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding this post.

    I know that there a lot of people at DTG that are passionate about what they do, that passion often managed to "seap through" the otherwise mediocre average of various releases, but almost each of them had some issues that manage to overpower, or somewhat belittle the passion and what's good about it, a few examples:

    • The Class 313 physics are awesome, with the camshaft being brilliantly recreated, allowing for a realistic and accurate driving style and the ability to use some "tricks" that real drivers used -> the motors are comically too powerful, the lights aren't visible unless you are really close to it
    • New timetable for rapid transit -> BR182 and Talent 2 are unusable, only leaving the Cab Car
    • The BRD BR143 has been improved even more -> can't be used on DCZ
    • The art and close scenery on Harlem are amazing -> A lot of services can't be completed
    Do you want me to go on? I'm not done yet.

    That's what I (and I'm sure you and the people that work there) find the most frustrating. You are always so close, yet so far. Nice, we got a new BR185.5 which is a lot more realistic with BRD, we can't use it anywhere apart from RRO.

    Why does it seem like you never go the extra mile to make sure something is as good as it gets, as with everything the devil is in the detail.

    It seems clear to me that your aim is to get it "good enough" for your average consumer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  14. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Right
    I have a feeling I am on redrev1917 mute list following a container dispute.

    That said I have tried the 6:33am freight service on Riesa and it has failed. Interestingly right near the end of the route it states I have 11km left to go. Train on same track. I was here first. Signal 30 ZU525

    Screenshot (190).png Screenshot (191).png Screenshot (192).png
     
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  15. goldenage

    goldenage New Member

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    Despite this thread turning into an utter mess (people need to realise that it is not a personal attack on every player of a certain game to call out issues with said game and its management), I think that the original poster summed up a lot of outstanding issues and community opinion very well.

    I love TSW2, but it will remain distinct from (and far from a spiritual successor for) Train Simulator until DTG truly commit to unlocking the game's full potential. Spirit of Steam has brought TSW2 back to the front of my mind after a long period of inactivity, but it has also reminded me of all the problems with the game, the release cycle and the management.
     
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I thought that but in fact haven't touched TSW since 27th May which is, what, 10 days ago. I was surprised to find how much pleasure can be got from using TSC - with the right content. And by rights, experiences like the one I described earlier on the Kyle Line should be possible in TSW by now. Not only all the bugs and unfinished stuff but they are still floundering around giving us short, disconnected routes that don't exactly have you going oooh and aaah. Spirit Of Steam, for all its faults I might still have bought it but 35 miles from Crewe to bloody Liverpool... About as uninteresting and dulltastic as you can get.
     
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Im sure dovetail are aware of the issue though. They are probably working on a fix....which will come in another 6 months time. Id love to be wrong though and they fix it during the downtime they have.

    I do hope that alot of the issues do eventually get sorted in a timely manner during this period. I feel like if they had prevented these issues from the start, threads like these wouldn't be made. DTG have shown that they can make good products but fail to do it at a consistent level in this game. That's the part that sucks to be honest.
     
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  18. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I am beginning to think that the blame is less with QA and more with people who don't play through their code before submitting it to QA. A bit of personal responsibility wouldn't go amiss.

    "Is the game in a better state than it was before you changed that code?" should be on the walls of the office.

    Waiting for fixes, which either semi-fix it or not even that, and then break something else which was fine, is just maddening. Especially as you waited 6 months or more for the "fix" which now requires another 6 month wait before the "fix" can be fixed. Or at least an attempt can be made to fix it.
     
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  19. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Happens also to the afternoon service. See thread below. Apparently one member found a solution in the end. I didn´t try again ...

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...dresden-freiberger-strasse.51508/#post-447746
     
  20. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    Appreciate this is evoking a passionate response from you all, but I've seen a lot of unacceptable behaviour towards other players on this thread.

    I've issued warnings to those who I deem to have overstepped a line, and if the thread continues with this velocity and ill-feeling, I will lock it - which is not what I want to do, as there is some genuinely good discussion in here.
     
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  21. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's ever gonna happen, not to mention the already steep learning curve that comes with the Unreal, I would assume the whole thing would be an absolute mess to get working without any proper help.
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention licensing. It's not DTG's personal editor. They would have to get permission from Epic to allow users to use their own editor.
     
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  23. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    The whole game really can be summed up as good intentions which are occasionally met, however budget concerns and lack of polish detract majorly from the experience, and how some bugs have been left in for months or some since release, or how some got past QA is baffling.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think if they could in the future release a much more comprehensive scenario planner/editor, similar to the one in TSC, it would go a long way. I think being hamstrung as to what consists you can select and having very little choices in terms of beginning and end points as well as the way start times appear to work, all means that what you can achieve is quite basic. It would mean you could, particularly in routes set in times past, ie NTP and TVL make more bespoke and in some cases more accurate formations.

    It would be even better if there could in the future, be a way of editing or making a complete timetable. I imagine that would be a huge undertaking and likely not possible.

    Either of the above would get me using TSW a lot more.
     
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  25. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Makes me wonder if DTG would be better off ditching Unreal if they were to do another revival, and try and build an in house engine instead. Because the limitations of the editor has also stalled 3rd party developers for TSW.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  26. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I think we can all agree that we only want what is best for the sim. Some people may be already satisfied, and I'm honestly glad for them!

    But it's clear that content-wise, TSW just isn't there yet. And all the complaints spawned in this thread route back to one core concept:

    "DTG consistently operate on short-term gain, and players want long-term growth." The two are in constant anti-thesis to each other.

    It's not necessarily a bad thing, DTG need money and assurances... sure. Relatively speaking, TSW is doing pretty well (about 300 average players on steam, but multiply across 4 platforms and it becomes a different story).

    What is inhibits is overall management and the allowance of "long-term imagination" for ideas that really will evolve the platform. The two biggest revolutionary concepts we had (PIS, Timetables) all came from additional time of the developers themselves. The passion of DTG staff is not in question here. It's the formula that DTG have stuck to for more than a decade, which is presenting the EXACT same issues as TSC (people complaining about rushed routes, sounds, bugs etc.)

    And this issue will continue. Should the time come for extensions, people are going to question why legacy routes won't connect... and it will be because DTG did not lay the foundation for it immediately. Should the time come for guards and SDO, Adam will have to backport it to 20+ routes. Should UE5 present a future, we'll have to go through the "preservation" update turbulence all over again.

    Ultimately these smaller issues accumulate into significant problems, that could be solved if DTG spent the initial time crafting a stable platform (like MSFS, X-Plane, Euro Truck Sim). 5 years in, The Train Sim "World" could have had elaborate connections and experiences unrivalled by any train simulator on the market, and people here would be surrendering their wallets to Dovetail.
     
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  27. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm a "fanboi", but TSW is the sim i keep coming back to.

    I've played at least one version of just about every train sim going back to MSTS, and while some have them have done certain things better than TSW, none of them have grabbed me as strongly. Maybe it's just being able to move around in first-person, climb on the locos and cars, etc, and not just viewing everything as a floating camera? Obviously it's very subjective.

    Quite a few people have mentioned preferring TSC and spending more time with that lately, and that's fine, if you're not enjoying your hobby, what's the point?

    I don't totally understand spending so much time or gnashing of teeth on an "inferior product", though? I totally get a rant or vent now and then, but some people seem consistently aggravated, and honestly, TSW has been out 5 years now- it will change and evolve over the years, but we all know what it is and isn't- expecting it to suddenly change into a completely different product is unrealistic IMO.

    Edit: i just saw a suggestion to ditch UE and move to a bespoke engine- there's a debate to be had on whether UE was the right choice, but changing engines now would be a nightmare. It could only work if it was launched as a completely new product IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  28. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean at the time it probably wasn't a bad thing. I still don't think using unreal was a bad choice. Although you can argue DTG could've had better hindsight like with route extensions for example. Granted, Unreal wasn't really designed for train simulation in the first place so there were bound to be some limitations I'd assume.

    The reason why games like MSFS, Euro Truck, American Truck, TSC, and OMSI 2 still do well is because of user generated content. Editors are a good thing but even then not all user generated is the best. AP makes good content but frankly their prices for some of their content are absolutely absurd for a few scenarios and having to pay for updates is very odd.

    Heck maybe if there was an editor, we would probably. have route extensions by now. Or better scenery assets etc.

    This could be an example of short turn gain, long term loss which isn't a bad thing from a financial point of view of DTG but in the long term, this means that the growth that players want to see has to come from DTG which takes time. It took a while just to have working PIS for example. Had there been a public editor, perhaps we could've seen working pis even sooner. You also would have to take into account console players. How would they be able to make content like routes or trains? Not to mention the complexity of an editor as well.

    It would be good if DTG were to release scenario planner 2.0 eventually or maybe allow players to make a custom timetable (although a custom timetable could present it's own issues.) It would allow more players to have more flexibility since no editor will be coming. Scenario Planner in it's current form extremely bare and limited.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  29. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I am somewhat disappointed that this thread has become a bit of a shouting match, for some at least. I don't think it is wrong to enjoy TSW at all, or TSC. Both can be fun, but both are held back by the way Dovetail works. Many of TSW's issues also come from the engine's limitations. The base features of TSW, which can't be done directly in Train Simulator were and are the weapons used in the TS vs TSW debate, but I still feel little confidence that DTG can actually make TSW the true replacement - like how Atari tried for years to make a true sequel to RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 but never could. The lack of willingness to even try to release an editor not only has made the game less enjoyable for many (even for those with no ambition to build routes) but has meant inventive members of the community have felt the need to reverse engineer it, which is a bad sign for the integrity of Dovetail and the game itself.

    JD may have not enjoyed reading through this thread but neither have I, and the initial response he gave to me/us is the generic 'corporate damage control' post. It doesn't fix any issues or address my concerns - in some cases, it's made it worse. Asking Matt Peddlesden tough questions on a stream is not DTG moving forward. What we really want is DTG to actually change.

    I agree with those who say DTG is in a 'one step forward, two steps back' situation. It is so upsetting seeing the game ruined when there are so many good things. In that regard, DTG are better now than in the days of the Class 91 and 321 DLCs. Those were total, unapologetic crap, but at the same time they didn't break the game. There was a choice that we could make. The choice for me was 'AP Class 91 Enhancement Pack'.

    I would be very disappointed to see this thread locked, because it would be a slap in the face to myself and those in a similar position. I want to enjoy TSC and TSW but for varying reasons we just can't, at least without a healthy dose of denial.
     
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  30. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Please,

    Calm, everyone stay calm.

    Matt, JD, Sam are going to build this game back better. Reset it for a brighter future.

    I believe with the advent of TSW3 in the next year or so dovetail are going to make the best game of the year, resetting all titles forever.

    It will most likely be more popular than elder Scrolls 6, people will trade in AAA games just to get it.

    Please,

    Calm,

    This game will build back better

    Calm...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I would actually be quite interested to learn what Paul Jackson's view is on the state and future of TSW. Ultimately as the CEO the buck stops with him and he has the authority to start directing changes to internal processes and procedures which could reform the way forward.

    I have visions of the dialogue between Dan O'Herlihy's Old Man and Ronny Cox in the opening scenes of Robocop, after the Ed209 goes beserk and eviscerates a board member...
    [ED-209 has malfunctioned during a demonstration, killing Kinney in the boardroom]

    The Old Man : [12:43] D1ck, I'm very disappointed.

    D1ck Jones : I'm sure it's only a glitch, a temporary setback.

    The Old Man : [raises his voice in anger] You call this a GLITCH?

    Oh and the forum swear filter strikes again, it blips the accepted abbreviation for the name "Richard" to "Love"...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  32. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    To go back to the points made by jamesthepershing, we have become quite comfortable buying things, complaining about them, waiting a year for them to be playable, then repeating a cycle. Something released should be in a state to be released, and we have seen throughout DTG's existence that this rule is not followed. Their excuses dry up when, as Mr Pershing says, individual people are able to make stuff better than DTG, and when fixes for bugs DTG makes are fixed within hours by the community yet are still not officially released.
     
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  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Agreed….. It would be good to see a ceo statement or stream appearance no matter how succinct. Acknowledgment more so
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is costs. It would be too expensive to fix things apparently. Remember, it is very expensive to notice the broken pis on the 442 in RT....yet a modder can release something in a matter of hours or days. It's easy to blame Microsoft or Sony though.

    But I always think that if you released a good product, the cost of the pre release fixes would be covered by the sales of the product and any future sale would help pay for any bug fixes. Think of the money skyhook probably lost when they released the 187 in that state. Had they released it in a better state, then wouldn't the costs of development come back to them with the number of sales.

    Like let's say for example DTG released a new timetable and fix the audio issue on LIRR and the M7, there may be some players that didn't buy the route because of those issues. If those issues were fixed, there may be some inclined to purchase the route and even the M3. It probably wouldn't be a ton of players but they would still make cash regardless.

    If 10 players bought it, they would make $299.99
    If 20 Players bought it, they would make $599
    If 30 Players bought it, they would make $899
    If 40 players bought it, they would make $1,199 and so on and so forth so updating routes would make dtg money. Probably not as they would've at launch but they would make some sort of financial gain along with the profits they made from previous dlcs and investors.

    This is all just assumptions so I could be wrong but it doesn't seem unreasonable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  35. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    You aint on my ignore list mate
     
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  36. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    I would like to hear from him as well. A q&a would be really nice. We always hear from the same people with same excuses, would be nice to ask the man himself some tough questions.

    Reading through these posts, I for one don’t want TSW to fail or die or whatever, I really want it to be a full on TSC alternative that is just better in every way. The main issue I have with DTG is the fact that they release content with outright blatant issues, they then apologise and say it will be fixed, 6 months to a year we see a fix but with other bugs delivered with it, we then get Matt on a stream saying how it’s unacceptable and shouldn’t happen and they working to fix it…but guess what, on the next release, the above cycle starts again, and then again, and then again, and then again. At first I was sympathetic and felt content with what Matt mentioned, but now I’m done with all that, my sympathy tank is empty and I have had enough of the excuses, I want to start seeing actual tangible results before I go back to support TSW.

    I agree that a content editor would make such a difference! I remember a long time ago Matt showed one off that looked really promising, but as usual it disappeared into the abyss.

    I as well think we all need to calm down, shouting at each other won’t help anyone or fix anything. I know a lot of us have spent a lot of money on content and it’s frustrating to get what we are getting, but if you want to make a real difference, we need to just stop buying the content, simple, and that is what I am going to do until they sort out TSW, if they never do, well then at least I won’t be wasting any more of my money.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  37. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! I'm doing that now with my Bossman Black Five at Kyle waiting to depart with the 0505 Boat Train in TSC. But I would love to be able to replicate that experience in TSW, some day!
     
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  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    OldVern can be found selling bossman locos at your local supermarket made from cake, I think he has a love for their product and perhaps cake. ;)
     
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  39. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    It's a funny old world :) :) :) ;)
     
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  40. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I'm seriously exploring the possibility of purchasing Trainz2022 or Run8 right now.
     
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  41. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    M'mmmm, cake...

    The irony is, that DTG have actually had a shedload of money off me in the last few days for BMG and VW locos in TSC (I don't know if they get a cut for the Matrix coaches on Marketplace), probably not far short of £100. Obviously some of that goes to the developer(s), Steam and the taxman but I had to smile earlier at the comments from some quarters because we felt justified in supporting the OP and adding some views of our own that we "hate" DTG!
     
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  42. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I've heard it's not worth upgrading to Trainz 2022 unless you are interested in the route surveyor, and that most would be better off buying TRS19 instead.
     
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  43. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Oh and the TSW2, 2D map is rubbish. No idea why, because the 2D map in TSC is extremely functional.
     
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  44. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    Thats the usual cycle and i hope it will not repeat again.

    I dont get why they did not include names for stations like "Augsburg Hbf" for example.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  45. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    PJ is no longer the CEO of DTG. He is the chairman now, which is a semi-retired pipe and slippers role. There is a new CEO and has been for about a year now.

    Other than this, I haven’t felt the need to reply to this thread. It’s an interesting read but to put my feelings about the game, both good and bad, would take me hours to write and bore everyone to tears. Maybe some day I’ll make a ‘my feelings’ thread.
     
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  46. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Unless you take out the subscription version, TRS22 as sold on Steam or a one off purchase doesn't include Surveyor 2.0. For the time being I'm still happy with TRS19 for route building, N3V finally got it patched to a reasonable state (DTG aren't the only ones who drop the ball) and I can't really justify £55 for the new version.
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh the tsw2 map isnt really useful. DTG would just have to add names of the stations really to the map and maybe the service number of an ai train. Not sure why they haven't worked on it after all this time to be honest.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
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  48. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    The map has been on the the "if it's not on the roadmap " pile for ages. I think a good 6-8 months ago matt was saying it was a hard upgrade to do.
     
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  49. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    It's probably one of those things that if they had done it at the start it wouldn't have been a fairly easy job to do with 3 routes. Now we are approaching 40 routes it's became a massive task.
    Just like a lot of the issues which are parked.
     
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  50. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it needs a complete overhaul which is why they are having difficulties. But had they worked on map issue in the beginning, they wouldn't be in this mess. Another example of the company's lack of hindsight.
     
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