In Spirit of Steam has anyone had a derailment problem with the Edgehill to Buxton through freight service starting at 04.40. I've tried everything to get the train to Ditton Plarform 4 but the train always derails. It's a partially fitted train, so limited to 35 mph but it even derails at 8mph. I've even tried reconfiguring the train so that the unfitted wagons are behind the engine and the fitted ones on the rear to help with braking. Doesn't matter how gently you brake, it still derails. Somebody have a go and see what you think, then let me know. Terry
Derailing on the 8f is very common. Basically if you brake, it causes the freight cars to basically crash into each other and cause the derail. When you brake with the combination handle, it applies a lot of the steam brake really rapidly and it also adds the automatic brake as well which causes the freight cars to crash into each other, causing a derail. It doesn't matter how the consist is set up. Even if you have fitted wagons and then unfitted wagons behind them, when you brake, it doesn't apply for the unfitted wagons so they crash and derail. Can also happen at a standstill. Even applying like a 20% brake is considered a full brake at the moment, causing all the derail issues.
That’s not how it works since the mineral cars are not piped. The fitted cars can only apply brakes if they’re directly connected to the loco. Don’t go above 8/9% on the combination brake and you should be fine.
Try a gentle application of the brakes to bring the train under control (initial application), then release again and then reapply a little more than before. Each time reducing your speed. Also remember that most BR goods trains were only permitted to travel at a maximum speed of 45mph. It’s all about forward planning, knowing the route down to every curve, bridge or gradient, this is the way real engine crews used to learn, by repetition and taking careful note of lineside features. Plus!, having to stop to pin down the wagons brakes before a downhill incline and of course having the guard in his brake van, winding on his brake, in order to control the train from both ends! Not sure if it’s all doable in TSW2 SoS, but that’s how a goods train was handled on British Railways ChessieT
That's what I have tried on a few runs with the 8F, especially in the rain reversing up a steep incline. I'd apply the handbrake on the unfitted mineral wagons if I had any in the consist and wind on 10-20% brake in the brake van. I found it really helps.
The advice here has been sound, I brake around 10% and give that at least 10 - 15 seconds to take hold (you can watch on 3 camera at the back for the buffers to close up and compress) then you can gently and slowly increase the brake and you should be ok. I'll give this service a run now to see if anything else is going wrong. Update: I was able to complete this service using my technique.
An unfitted or partially fitted train should actually be travelling at no more than 25 MPH. In any event DTG's application of in train forces is still wrong as the buffers would soak up the force as the wagons run in. As mentioned in another thread the weight of wagons pushing against the tender would not result in a derailment as the buffers should be doing the job they were designed for.
Hi all, I've just gone back into the above scenario, and rather than drive the train I've got out and walked along to look at the wagons. The 21t general cargo wagons are fitted. The mineral wagons are unfitted but are through piped. This means that any wagons that are fitted but to the rear of the mineral wagons will still be linked to the vacuum braking system. I've also noticed that the brake lever on each mineral wagon is now working, although they can only be pinned down to the maximum braking position. I'm sure that when SofS came out a week ago these brake levers didn't work. Anymore thoughts on this, and how many wagons do you pin down as a rule of thumb. It would be good if there was some way to have a guard in the guards van who could apply the van brakes when necessary. Terry.
How exactly do you recognize the braked and unbraked cars? However, the braked ones should be at the back of the train to keep the train straight when braking, not the other way around. Otherwise this leads to buffering or accumulating. I am currently running a freight service where the Fireman is not doing his duty despite the automatic setting. I can't help but say that all 8f services require a revision and, above all, that the driving physics have to be adjusted! If that had been the case in reality, no train would have reached its destination. You've definitely overshot the mark here. And it turns out that uniform internal standards were not followed here either, otherwise such differences would not be apparent. Everyone seems to be able to do whatever they want here. And derailing as an error is also taken over. A tragedy...
you need to remember this is the 1950's, you'd have 3 types of freight wagons, 'fitted' which had vacuum operated brakes, 'piped' which had a through pipe, to send the vacuum to fitted wagons behind it, but no brakes itself, and 'unfitted' which had no brakes. This is referring to brakes that can be applied from the loco, most wagons have a lever operated brake you applied by walking along the side of the train... you drop the lever, apply some tension and push in a pin to hold the lever in position,,, hence the term 'pinning the brakes down'... done before a steep decent. so unless your fitted wagons at the back had all piped wagons Infront of it, there was no way for the brake vacuum to get to them. Hence in real life, the fitted wagons were placed at the front of the train so the brakes could be operational. In the scenario in question, they have unfitted wagons Infront of the fitted ones, so no way to operate those brakes from the engine, that shouldn't have happened. Again, in real life The guards van has a handbrake which he'd use to help stop the unfitted wagons bunching up and possibly derailing, the guard would know when to apply and release his handbrake, and there'd be whistle codes the driver would use to tell him to apply or release his handbrake at other times.
A simplified answer to this is to look at the ends of each wagon; if it’s a fitted wagon you will see a pipe with a flexible hose attached, this is the train vacuum pipe; if unfitted, there will be no pipe work at all, just the 3 link or instanter coupling. I believe that there was an attempt to make this visually obvious, inasmuch as fitted wagons were painted in bauxite brown and unfitted wagons painted in grey. But as with all things in this world, there were exceptions to this rule! ChessieT
In the interests of authenticity, That picture is slightly inaccurate. I real life back in the day when coupling a loco to the train, the screw coupling of the loco would always be used rather than the much weaker instanter coupling as in this picture. Unless of course it was only coupled for shunting etc.
It would be cool if you had any reference photos for that stewartforgie I can take it through ambassador channels. Prep
Codes on the wagons. Fully fitted with vacuum brakes are marked XP. 16-ton mineral vans were for the most part completely unfitted (some were built with vacuum brakes, but these were removed as the loading/unloading mechanisms constantly damaged them.) As mentioned, these should go at the back, after all fitted and piped wagons. Well, not quite at the back; there would always have been a brake van there.
You can certainly use the 3 camera to turn the brakes in the guard van and this is very helpful slowing down and keeping the train stretched. IRL, they would be very careful not to lock up the wheels and wear a flat spot. Edit: Just saw the prior post by gazz292
Ok, if because of the air hoses the braked cars were in front and the rear unbraked ones would run up like this, only the brake car can maintain the extension. But then you should be able to use it. With Cam 3 I can open the door but not operate the brake. It would be a nice feature if that were possible. But what's the point of such a brake van if it brakes with you or you can brake with it? Does he only come along as decoration? Either way, the driving physics are simply too sensitive. Because as you can see, it's not that easy. It is certainly not in the inventor's interest to sweat blood and water every time you brake because you fear a derailment. That's not realistic, that's absurd!
That's a really good suggestion- maybe the devs ought to look into this. Keymap a command which will (a) sound a whistle signal to the brakeman and b) apply handbrake at the rear. This after all was prototypical operation.
I suspect part of the problem is that in their attempt to "fix" the issue of buffer clipping, they have made buffer springback way, way too powerful. I noticed this on Cane Creek recently -after the update - in that I was supposed to stop and uncouple the cut. Well, for some reason I had not set the loco brake, so that when I uncoupled, the force of the buffers alone propelled three locomotives merrily down the (level) track at a respectable enough velocity that I could barely catch up by running!
Didn’t know US freight had buffers … (Yes I know knuckle couplers can be compressed and stretched). Just had to have some fun with you.
As an ex freight guard who worked unfitted trains, \perhaps I can shed some light on what would happen with this particular consist where the fitted wagons are in the middle. If the run was fairly long, then, while still in the yard, I would simply have shunted out the fitted wagons and remarshalled the train to put the fitted wagons to the front next to the engine. This would probably have taken around 10 to 15 mins tops. Otherwise I would have just released the brakes of any that were applied and run it as an unfitted train. Also when travelling with an unfitted train it was down to the guard to ensure that the train did not bunch up as it slowed or stopped. This was achieved solely by the Guards route knowledge. Before a guard was allowed out on a route on his own, he would travel with another experienced guard while learning the route. This included all gradients. signals, signal boxes, junctions and catch points (Both facing and trailing), on that particular route. Once the Guard had learned the route he would then sign a declaration that he was familiar with all aspects of the route and only then would he be allowed to operate as a guard on that route.
