Dovetail, Trust, And Myself - An Essay

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Doomotron, Jun 5, 2022.

  1. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I think that it will happen again, and again, and again, and again...
     
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  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I don’t believe I meant having people with cellphones, as the clothing and such can still be period accurate, like the architecture and road vehicles, and I just meant that the time can be depicted without the negative aspects of behaviour and societal exclusion that doesn’t fit with today’s players.
     
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  3. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    stujoy

    You could argue that Steam Trains should not be depicted as they’re terribly polluting. This piece of software is either a simulator or it’s not. If you’re going to make era specific content then in my eyes it should be era specific, warts and all.

    Hiding young people away from the injustices of the past is not the correct way to ensure it doesn’t happen again. If someone wouldn’t play a game because the collection of pixels on screen doesn’t look exactly like them then they perhaps have other issues they need to deal with. I’ve yet to ever play a game with a protagonist that looks anything like me, and I’ve been gaming since the 80’s.

    “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Winston Churchill.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Winston Churchill (doomed to repeat George Santayana)
     
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  5. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Where would you draw the line though? For example of they did a German route set in mid to late 1930s would you expect to see Nazi flags adjourning every station building?

    A USA route set in the 40's or even 50's would you want to ensure no POC was sat in the same carriage as a white passenger?

    Is there anything you feel historically shouldn't be included or should it be modelled as close as accurately possible warts and all? Even if it hurt sales and/or resulted in certain routes being banned or having age restrictions applied in certain markets?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
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  6. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I think young people are more aware of the injustices of the past than young people ever have been but they can escape from it while driving a train for entertainment. If they get into trains and want to learn the history of the people who drove them, they can read a book or search the web. Nobody is hiding it, they are just making the game more representative of the people playing it. In history books the reader is not actively participating but they are in a simulation game. That does make it different.
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It is for that reason Matt has stated that DTG will never do such a route.

    Which is different from doing a 1930s German route with black-red-gold Bundesrepublik flags everywhere.
     
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  8. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    It was a hypothetical question, I'm really interested in seeing where everyone draws a line.
    For example it's fairly well known that I came strongly and vocally on the pros of having rainbow containers in SH and other modern routes. Yes there's no accurate prototype IRL but for me it is believable that there could be and it doesn't look out of place. Plus I'm strongly in favour of showing solidarity with the LGBTQ community. But would I want a rainbow conflat in SoS? No way, not in a month of Sundays despite my views on SH, it wouldn't be believable and would completely ruined immersion for me.
    Honestly I'm not sure where I sit on female drivers and I do lurch from one camp to the other.
     
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  9. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    If they do a german route in another time period it should be the 90s with Minttürkis, Fernblau and Orientrot the liveries are just great.
    Driving an Orientrot loco with Minttürkis waggons. If you dont know how these colors look just google them :)
     
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  10. VictoryWorks

    VictoryWorks Well-Known Member

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    Cool are we making up fictional scenarios to justify things now...
    What about when that little girl writes a history exam paper 10 years later explaining how things have progressed for women and states categorically that women worked the footplate on steam railways in the 1950's, fails the exam, doesn't get her dream job due to lack of grades and ruins her life.
    See, I can make up silly propaganda too!

    You know what I teach my two girls... you see yourself represented in people's character and actions (the things they can control) NOT in their gender, skin colour, class and sexuality (the things they can't control). It's what we did in the olden days, before all of this divisive garbage that means you are only allowed see yourself in someone absolutely identical to you. My kids will be strong, accepting of anyone who isn't a jerk, and able to judge character. Sadly an art that is rapidly being lost due to the kind of nonsense you spew above.
    Kids are not the delicate little snowflakes they're being brainwashed to be - my kids are both adopted and the horrors they've lived through before they came to us you can't even begin to imagine (newsflash: due to easy abortions babies rarely get adopted anymore, it's almost solely kids taken from neglectful/abusive parents). But they don't need to see someone identical to them doing a thing to aspire to it - because they see past all of this over-done representation nonsense.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It is long past time we viewed people as individuals, not as mere avatars of some group identity.

    If we think a person is defined by skin color, how different are we from George Wallace?
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You may have got the opposite understanding of what I meant. Being only allowed to see yourself in people identical to yourself is not happening here or more generally when people talk of being inclusive or of representation. That is exactly the opposite of what is meant. In the old days people were judged by their gender, skin colour, class etc. and excluded because of it, and NOT by their character and actions. That is exactly why there were no women driving trains in 1958. The paragraph you quoted was a nice little joke about all the grown men crying in here because they can see a woman in a train which was meant to show up people clinging on to those old attitudes and nothing more than that, I don’t think for one minute that the other scenario is ever going to happen.

    DTG are representing the current inclusive nature of today’s society and I just happen to agree with them that having women in the old trains is not an issue because it is today’s society that are playing a game, I’m certainly not saying that some agendas that you see played out online and in sensationalist news media are entirely healthy. I’m sure most people are teaching their children to have good values like you are.
     
  13. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    DTG could easily have this as a non-issue by giving people the choice of having a male or female fireman like they do when you choose an avatar. I'm not convinced even if females were allowed to be a fireman at that time or indeed now there would be that many anyway but give us the choice DTG other games have had this issue as well and it ended a mess. Give people the choice.

    I remember after that Trainbow was introduced on the news it had some LGBT groups against it saying they were 'virtue signalling' and had no right to use their flag. There is always more than one opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
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  14. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Some segments of any communities will take offense at any or no action, as the old saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time, but you cant please all of the people all of the time. Or something like that anyway.
     
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  15. Thunderer

    Thunderer Well-Known Member

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    From this thread I'm getting the impression that many think that DTG is becoming a Woke company. Never a good sign.
     
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  16. Conductor B

    Conductor B Well-Known Member

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    Why not just give people the choice to choose what liveries and characters they want? I don't want to see any COVID, NHS, Ukraine, Taiwanese Independence, Thin Blue Line, BLM, Trump, Biden, Rainbow, Black Square, MAGA, or any other remotely political/social/ideological thing when I play. I want to be left the hell alone and be able to enjoy trains, neutrally, without some agenda/social issue/political angle/ideology/current event/etc. being shoved in my face. I want to escape into an ideal simulated world of neutral machines and neutral, uninteresting, and unimposing people. I didn't buy this game for the people or the posters on the walls, or to show "solidarity" with such-and-such a group, I bought it for the trains. If you like ideological things, add them on with a mod. A lot of people design them, and that's great. I thought trains would be one of the few things I could enjoy without someone needing to drag his political or ideological agenda into the mix.

    Another thing to consider: taking advantage of a captive audience and forcing your views on them doesn't create converts, it creates resentment towards you and whatever it is you're trying to promote. No one in the world has ever had his mind changed by a bumper sticker or a placard. (What if Run8 started putting MAGA or Brexit stuff all over everything? I'm sure a lot of people would be turned off by it, even if they supported those things in principle.)
     
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  17. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    The fact a that this fireman thing is being turned into a social/political reason for a small scale civil war is bloody nuts, it's just a harmless piece of code that isn't going to affect anyone, kill anyone or turn them into zombies of any related factions they think is at play here, people with a clear rationale mind can see it truly for what it is a harmless piece of software nothing more or nothing less........
     
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  18. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    It's not realistic, it's FUBAR.
     
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well then I guess DTG should also add Trump 2020 liveries, Brexit liveries, Nazi symbols, and the confederate flag as liveries to trains. Maybe they should make passengers wear BLM hats or Trump 2020 hats and shirts.

    After all it would just be a harmless piece of code, right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    We are probably getting off the original purpose of the thread by highlighting the fire(wo)man etc thing again and need to be careful as the last thread about it got locked by our Orwellian hosts (or is it the Nightwatch from Babylon 5?). That said, I haven’t seen anything similar in the new MSFS or the SCS truck sims for that matter, so it must be a DTG thing. Ultimately we just want them to focus on giving us a decent bug free game and not waste developer time attaching all this extra baggage.
     
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  21. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Well said. There are things more important than realisim. Inclusivity being one of them.
     
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  22. DTG JD

    DTG JD Director of Community Staff Member

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    I don't think we portrayed it as a freak accident. We tested it, but it caused knock-ins in places we weren't expecting (when we retest new things, we do something called 'regression testing', which is fairly common in the games industry, where you test based on areas you think will be impacted by making a change), so hadn't subsequently retested those areas which became apparent when the patch went live.

    Adam said that we'll include a further round of 'overall route' testing as part of the process, to try to pick up on some of these in future.
     
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  23. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    My only thought was that it's strange that a final sanity/overall check wasn't done after everything was done and ready for release, but maybe this is standard in the gaming industry so I don't know.

    Trying the latest update right now. Fingers crossed the most outstanding issues are fixed.
     
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  24. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    LOL!
    I'm not reading this.
    This company has been around for a while and their business practices have not changed much since Railworks.
    Rush it; copy/paste it; jack the price; put it out broken; fix it later (up to 7 years like the Northeast Corridor for TSC) or never. LOL
    Instead of writing long letters hoping they'll change, why don't you do what people USED to do and vote with your wallet?
    I stopped buying addons myself, and have no intention on starting again. Spirit of Steam was the last straw (no manual mode, no changing colour of smoke? LMAOOOOO even MSTS mastered that!).
    I'm seeing a lot of consumer cuckoldry around this game. It's sad.
    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  25. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    As for DTG's injecting politics in the game. Let's be honest. None of the companies flying rainbow flags in June actually care about LGBT. They're doing it for the money. But you know what they say "Get woke go broke".:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
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  26. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like Bidenistic Sarcasm. Well done. :D:D:D
     
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  27. A Big Chungus

    A Big Chungus Active Member

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    What an interesting read this thread has become. You never know where its going to go next!
     
  28. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    And its DTG that injects politics here ? ;)

    Now seeing that some people really dont like this stuff, maybe should they consider make this stuff optional.

    Now about bugs, they say that they will spend time on them, lets see how it plays in few months. Some are already corrected. Want to be a litlle optimistic.
     
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  29. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    I assumed he was being sarcastic with the "build back better" quote. DTG is a lot like Joe Biden in many ways, but I digress.:D:D:D:D

    The DSD on the class 313 is still broken. LOL
    You mean to tell me it's gonna take them over 8 months to add a beep.:D:D:D:D
     
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  30. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    They’re all scared witless that the moronic mobs that inhabit social media echo chambers (Twitter in particular) will pick up on the fact that they haven’t lost their minds in this regard and pile in on them. Next comes the gutter media who are desperate for anything that they can twist to be controversial so as to generate clicks and ad revenue to keep their pointless paper/website/whatever going. Companies will virtue signal about anything at any time to avoid being the next target of these idiots.

    Don’t believe this happens? Look at the furore generated in the UK at the weekend around the entirely innocent comments an elderly chap made on TV about something his Grandmother (probably born at the end of the 1800’s) said regarding foreign food. As I said, there are red flags everywhere in Western societies that we’re already well-on on a journey that won’t end well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think this is one of the instances where DTG's version of testing (which may be industry standard but that doesn't really help) and the consumer's version of testing (ie in ways you will not imagine when writing the software in the first place) are at odds.

    As someone else above commented. The very last, final, "nobody else does anything after this" check on any update must be the big check of every system.
    Better to release something that has been thoroughly checked with a list of "We know this texture here needs updating and we will do so after the next full thorough check" rather than releasing when you haven't checked everything.
    People may feel better about DTGs output if you check and check and check, even if you then say "hey, it's got a minor issue" because that's better than saying "Hey, this is great and marvellous" only to have it shoved in your face within ten minutes
     
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  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If you read the Sun or the Mail "it's a furore". If you read anything else it wasn't mentioned...
    I only know it happened because it camew up on facebook
     
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  33. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    As I said, gutter press. Trust me though, try googling it….the Sun and Mail are the tip of the Iceberg.

    Anyway this issue is a small element of the OP’s ‘essay’, the crux of which (ie the many many basic issues with TSW and DTG in general) is getting lost in the noise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  34. StenioBlackHawnk

    StenioBlackHawnk Active Member

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    This thread became my favorite thing in the morning now, lmao.
     
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  35. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    A overall "lets look at it and drive one full servivce at least and see if the sounds work or if suddenly all passengers and DB logos glow" might be a good idea.
    Something like this should be industry standard. Just let one guy with a bit of passion for the game have a final look. He will probably find more issues in 30 minutes then 10 rounds of "regression testing" do.
     
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  36. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    I live in Toronto, Canada.
    Enough said.
    :D:D:D
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Guys, there are lots and lots of websites out there if you want to talk politics. I come here to discuss trains and train simming. Please, take it outside!

    (Although DTG did to an extent ask for it, can't deny that. That's why I expressed the view some time ago that game companies should steer clear of politics).
     
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  38. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    I was going to dive into this shxx fest - and then I thought, why not go and hang out with my dog...so over and out...
     
  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well at least this update didn't cause any new issues which is good. For the updated preserved routes at least. Can't comment on Steam. For future updates it would probably be a good idea to do a final test to make sure the update rolls out smoothly :)

    This just seems like the testing the company does doesn't really work when a issue could've been spotted by playing the route at least once even if this practice is common in the gaming industry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It's not the testing company
    As with any "test" you will only get the answer to the question which is being asked. If the question is "I have altered the texture in the A end of a unit, has this caused any other issues in the A end of said unit" then there's nothing there which asks them to go look at the B end...
    The problem is that the thorough test was completed whilst dev was continuing and that dev caused issues which would have been caught by a thorough test. That's not on the testing company, but on whoever either asked for the test to be done before dev was complete, or who didn't ask for more testing after knowing further dev was undertaken
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Ah I see. So then the testing should be done once a dev finishes his/her work rather than test whilst something is still in development. That would make sense
     
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  42. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It is tested once the Dev finishes, DTG call it a release day!
     
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  43. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    i can totally understand that when you have something like TSW2, built on a game engine that was never really designed to run a simulator, with what... 30... 40+ different routes and trains from around the world, each with many timetables and scenarios to drive on....

    You just don't have the time to do a playthrough of them all before each update.

    i can imagine also a bit of the 'oh bod, i'm driving this darn train again on this same route, i've driven this a million times now... here comes the bit where i can see a donkey if i look to the left as i pass this bridge...sigh' sneaking in, and you might miss things you weren't expecting to happen.


    i never noticed the rear window surround FIS thing or the rear most door issue on the hamster, simply because i drive all the trains from the front cab,
    i'll stick my head out the window and have a quick glance along the train to watch people getting on and off occasionally, but for me, i sometimes couldn't care less that anything exists more than 2 meters behind me, i'm looking forwards along the route for signals, and in the cab at the displays and controls.

    For me, i want a train driving simulator, not a platform staff / station master / guard / track maintenance / poster sticker upper / trophy hunter simulator, so i don't play those roles.



    Of course everyone wants something different from this game / sim.




    If DTG are to learn from this recent update issue tho, i think they need to stop rushing things, and more importantly, before releasing stuff publicly, release them first to a group of testers, ordinary people who play the game at home in the different roles built into the sim, and across the different routes, countries and trains.

    I'd bet 99% of issues will be flagged up in 1 or 2 days of 'selected home user testing' than any of the automated programs that are run to try and find issues in the office.
    Then spend time fixing those issues, if it means delaying an update / DLC release, surely that's better than the current method of charging full price for broken stuff, then having pages and pages like these on the various forums asking how the hell this happened in the first place.
     
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  44. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Just to make things clear, as I am worried this thread will be locked in the same way as the threads I mentioned in the OP, I don't have a major issue with wokeness in the game (not that I agree with it), since it doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the game directly (Dovetail have other solutions to that problem). My problem is that discussion about it ends more often than not in locks and warnings, which is not acceptable. This may well be a private forum but it does not give the moderators on this forum the right to police opinions other than DTG's company policy.

    As far as I'm concerned, creating an alternate history based on modern and hollow company values, forcing us to have it, then preventing people from making their concerns known, is absolutely a damaging policy.
     
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  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG have not closed down posts talking about the issue at hand. They've usually closed them down when they've become mud slinging matches with people on both sides accusing people on the other side of one thing or another
    For instance this post is still active and if the thing stays civil hopefully it will remain so
     
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  46. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    This is where you lost me in your original post. DTG only locks threads based on the participants' behavior, and generally after warnings, unless people are being especially egregious. That is made very clear every time it happens, and those locked threads are still around to check. Your statement that "...discussion about it ends more often than not in locks and warnings, which is not acceptable." is true, but claiming that to be DTG engaging in suppression rather than posters needing to behave like adults is patently false.
     
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  47. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Sorry JD I thought you were being sarcastic?
     
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  48. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    The thread about the 'Rainbow Container' had this added to the final post as it was locked by Protagonist:
    [locked after this message, as it's a suitable one to wrap up with - Protagonist]
    No mention of behaviour in any way. The post this note was added to linked to this tweet below:
    "Straight people aren't punched in the face for holding hands with their life partner, nor are the executed in other countries simply for being straight. Please educate yourself on the matter before commenting such nonsense."
    Unless Sam unknowingly left out details on the lock, it definitely comes across as "this is the right opinion, now stop talking." Remember that the (now deleted) tweet was an emotionally charged one where the operator of the ScotRail Twitter account was arguing with someone. The lock is not justified by the moderating team in a final post like what is normal for most thread locks - perhaps even this one. It is either irresponsible or political - to say it isn't would be lying, at least for this case.
     
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  49. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    All this discussion about what is right and wrong is interesting. From what I've seen if you stand outside a cinema and protest you can get films cancelled now.

    Incidentally if anyone wants to come and protest about the misrepresentation of dinosaurs I'll be picketing tomorrow to see if my concern is validated.

    I get inclusivity, it's part of my role , it's also a very fine line between extreme inclusivity creating new minorities......


    Anyhow, back to topic
     
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  50. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Now that reminds me of the Father Ted Episode "The Passion of St Tibulus" where Ted & Dougal picket their local cinema in protest, and all it does is create more interest in the film.
     
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