Spirit Of Steam Stream Feedback Thread... And More Importantly...

This is quite an appropriate article recently published about gen 8 and cross platform

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2022-original-xbox-one-cross-gen-analysis

 

This is the problem. Run 8 sort of fills the gap for the US but costs a fortune if you want all the routes and train sets. There’s also no structured scenarios or timetable to operate to. For everywhere else it’s either TSC, MSTS under Open Rails or Heaven forbid Trainz. Then there are the niche products like DRS but essentially DTG have the monopoly.

 

Especially considering the console market which, as we know, is roughly 2/3 of TSW’s customer base. On consoles, DTG don’t essentially have a monopoly - they have a literal monopoly.

 

Locomotives look good. But after looking at the 8F stream, the scenery is so much yikes.

 

Well about the Route and amount of services as steam fan, i think is worth to be patient for next few years and steam releases. This is a premiere and the amount of content will grow (similar to german content), so future routes can be released with the original high variety. Also DTG can add local services even with the first "steam loco dlc".

Yes crewe might be looking not as busy because all the shunting & other local services are missing, but Rome wasnt built in 1 day either. Important for me is dtg has to keep up their quality. Content will grow with time, slow but it will, but if the community has to beg for correct track sounds with every dlc, its just sending the wrong signal.

Cmon Dtg, you put so much effort into your projects. Why is the lack of basic elements getting discussed currently a lot in this forum?..ouch, you can do better. Still nice you got the giant trackside with the signalling correct.

 

Another thing I didn’t quite understand was the reason why we still have no guard operating the doors. The reason given was because new and existing players are familiar with the current ‘on-screen’ controls, with you (the player) operating the doors, or something along those lines.

Though that’s not in the slightest way realistic for quite a significant amount of trains we drive in TSW. Especially for a Steam operated service.

I would’ve thought DTG would’ve developed a system for this by now, especially given them Steam has been on the cards for years.

Some of the decisions made are really quite questionable, and makes you want to bang your head at times.

 

I can't understand not automating the doors. I get I don't have access to the code base but honestly, they have the required messages in code already - we know this because when tips are on they tell you "Open the doors" "Close the doors", so just take those messages and fire the HUD button events that open and close the train doors.
I get that writing a realistic steam boiler is a complex operation and no doubt it has and will take a lot of man hours, but taking already existing events (has the player stopped at a station they were due to stop at and should open the doors, and, is it time to leave and the player needs to close the doors) and wiring them to trigger other events that already exist seems like it "should" be very simple.

 

This had got me thinking , in its simplest form is a man with a whistle stand by the train on the load and unload? Is this awkward because of platform placements etc always being different

 

The game can cope with passengers recognising where the train doors and platforms are and get on or off a service, so whilst not being an expert in computer programing, I cant see its a massive leap in programming to think a guard could exit a train step on to the platform stand there for 30seconds or what ever wave a flag or shine a tourch (depending on time of day) and step back through the same door they exited from before closing the doors?

 

In its absolute simplest form, you can have it the way TSC works. Have it so the driver opens the doors via a keyboard button (removes the horrible UI overlay) with the doors then automatically closing (by a guard) at the appropriate time. As you mentioned, a whistle can be added for added authenticity.

It isn’t ideal but it’s much better than the current fictional system we have now. Surely DTG can at least handle that?!

 

Plenty of Pacifics to be seen at Crewe, but not many went to Liverpool (or Manchester), because those lines were relatively flat. You needed a Duchess to get an express over Shap!

 

Please can someone tell me why they are releasing as a BETA DLC and not the full complete product? (excluding unforeseen bugs)

 

I would imagine pressure from on high both fiscal and Paul Jackson mithering for “his” Crewe experience. Though it would be interesting to learn his thoughts on the debacle. However the fiscal may backfire anyway if others like myself have refunded the pre-purchase and there are further refunds from dissatisfied customers on release.

So I repeat again to DTG, either pull this until it’s properly ready, or offer at a suitable early access/may never get fixed price.

 

Though I will be buying this route around release, and do think some of the feedback (especially that directed specifically at Matt) is overly harsh I do also have some issues with the route as is.

Firstly the already adressed joint sounds. Now this is not a QA issue (after all it had been detected before the streams and is already being investigated). It would be best for the players' faith in DTG if this was solved swiftly after release.

Then there's the scenery, which does sit below the standard we're used to from the past few releases. To my understanding this has mostly been done out of performance grounds, but it's rather dissapointing to me. Parts feel empty or plasticy to me, though I found it hard to completely judge from the streams how severe this actually is. I had expectes better though, looking at routes like DRA, DCZ and BML that have considerably more detail.

Lastly, and for me the biggest one, is the safety valve constantly going off if you're not actively accelerating a lot. It's a very intrusive noise that drowns out all the other quite well made sounds that I'm searching for in steam (but hey, at least you won't miss the track joint sounds ). I really hope there will be some solution to this soon.

There are also some things others have given negative feedback on that I don't mind personally. Yes the route is empty as is, but services are accurate. The route has tons op potential for future DLC that will populate it in an accurate way, and DTG (and 3rd parties) would do good in utilising this potential as soon as possible. As long as there's a loco DLC or maybe even two before the end of the year I do think this is the way to go (rather than inaccurate services or a more calm route). The inaccuracy in train staff ethnicity and gender doesn't bother me in the slightest and DTG as a company in modern times would have gotten flak for the staff whichever way they would have decided. They've chosen for inclusivity over accuracy, and that might understandably upset some, but not me.

As I said, I will be buying the route probably, but I do have some issues with it. I'll hope (but won't assume) that these are in some manner adressed soon.

 

As the Timetable is going to be empty, I really do hope they have plenty of paths available for Scenario Editor (I want to create a very busy mix of BR Green & Steam) and not just the usual couple of paths from platforms at mainline stations and none from sidings as that just won't cut it.

Maybe they should of created a preserved route like East Lancs to begin with to introduce steam then once we have enough steam DLC they could of gone for the historic main line Crewe-L'pool route.

I'll still get the route but I think I'll only be on it a couple of times and use the stock as off the rails on WSR with the odd railtour as Scenario's on other routes.

 

I do find with a lot of these streams, is that when you actually have the route in front of you on your own PC it usually looks a lot better than on the stream.

I agree some of it was getting a bit too personal, there are still a lot of positives to the route, sadly the negatives are quite obvious and will impact on the experience.

I do have faith the track joint sounds will be fixed, or they will at least leave no stone unturned trying to fix them as I am sure they know that it is going to be a large black mark against this much vaunted first steam route, if such a major part of the audio and experience is missing.

Or maybe they should have chosen something like first Rail Simulator steam route, the S & D, that shipped with two engines which was fine as both were used for freight and passenger, the more local trains mostly used tender engines so it worked well. I think this would have been a better approach for the first route. If it had included a Stanier 5mt for example then that could have been included with a Crewe to Liverpool route, which if having two new engines, would have given us more variety straight away.

Still it is done and hopefully they do have some DLC in mind, even though they say none are planned. I do fear it will get boring after a while with just the same two loco's and will end up gathering virtual dust.

 

Logically thinking: Would they invest months and months of women and menpower into developing steam for only one DLC? If yes, that would be a pretty bad buisness structure. I guess over time we'll have more steam add-ons, depending on the reference material DTG can gather (which is especially for steam a very crucial part).
But before we can expect a loco DLC for Liverpool-Crewe, I guess the roadmap will feature a german and an US steam route. Or at least loco DLC. And then they might come back to Liverpool Crewe. But there are also many modern era fans, so it won't be steam-only. Maybe it will follow some kind of pattern like 2 modern DLCs, 1 steam DLC for a country. The next roadmaps will be interesting, as Liverpool Crewe will be out and they for sure are already working on the said fixes and of course at least plan new DLCs.

 

I have been careful not to be specific other than directly referencing comments from the individuals concerned. It is difficult to know where the buck stops anyway in the Trains Department hierarchy.

Out of interest I started watching the 8F stream (though why they felt it necessary to tag on the "support band" at the beginning for an hour about creating a scenario,, eludes me). One thing that comes across is the undoubted enthusiasm but therein lies a double edged sword. Enthusiasm can get in the way of professionalism which is why the real railway is often not that keen on employing people who admit to being enthusiasts. They want your eye and focus on the job, not off foaming or gricing. Then there's the beta testing? How much of this is being done by outsourced overseas people who might have little knowledge about railways in general and UK railways in particular and simply not pick up on something as obvious as missing track sound.

One can only hope assuming TSW survives this and Paul Jackson doesn't oversee mass sackings (like Basil in the last ever Fawlty Towers episode!) that major changes happen with the internal processes. Wouldn't bet on it though.

 

Well yes, I don't expect something in the next few weeks, and of course they should and need to cater for all those who have been waiting for something else whilst SOS is developed.

A knod to a future steam DLC for the route on the next roadmap or two would be nice to see though.

 

A DLC pack that put a steam transition timetable on Trans Pennine with green 40s, 45s and 101s wouldn't be the worst idea. Getting an 8F with a heavy mineral train up the bank out of Manchester Victoria would be a serious challenge.

The scenery wouldn't be 100 per cent accurate but a lot more so than Westerns in a 2015 Paddington running under the wires....

 

This was definitely a first day purchase for me but the lack of track sound is a bit of a disappointment to say the least. If the problem is with the track as they seem to be suggesting, what would happen if I were to buy this and use scenario planner to put a Jubilee and train on Northern Trans Pennine? Presumably the track joint sounds would be audible as NTP has functioning track sound. If so, I'll buy it anyway and hope for a fix. If not, I'll keep my money until they fix it.

 

So? they could just as easily choose to abandon this steam route in favor of making more routes instead of expanding this one. Think about it, you say yourself at least two more steam routes are likely, and they have to continue making more modern content as well. That's a good couple months of steam development already, they don't need loco DLCs to keep making use of the steam tech they've made, they may think their resources are better served towards those routes than expand the current one. And lets be honest, the way they've treated most of their routes up to this point would suggest SoS isn't going to have a long post-launch period.

 

I think if they don't release any DLC over the next few months/year or so for this route, which will leave it bereft of a lot of atmosphere, it would stop me purchasing any more add-ons to be honest, and I suspect I wouldn't be the only one.

For some routes, steam included, you can get away with two locos, a few wagons and one type of carriage. A mainline from a major junction to a major city in 1958 isn't one of them.

 

I have a feeling they only chose this route because ‘The Big Boss’ has always wanted it in TSW, yet they hadn’t actually thought of how many different types of trains are required to actually make it look and feel realistic.

For a first time Steam route, it does seem like a really odd choice to go with a busy mainline. What I would’ve done is gone with a less busier line, which its Steam locos could sub onto a future, busier line. A less busier line would no doubt have resulted in better scenery, too.

 

Copying this from another open topic thread:

So what would I like different? My personal opinion on this is utilising both locos on a mixture of services. Perhaps the following would digest this:

Jubilee on Mixed traffic services
8f on local services
Double heading? (8f's freight, Jubilee's on express)
8f shunting in yard or Light engine movements to a siding & back
Jubilee on freight substitutes

I personally had it under the impression that DTG may offer for us to utilise either locomotive on the local services, so you could pick and choose etc, sadly that is not the case.

Just to clarify, this is using the DLC we have already been promised and I do not see this being too uncommon or prototypical for that era..

 

It was evident from the earlier streams they were trying to woo us with the big yards everywhere. Well track is easier to lay than scenery (even if you forget to tick the jointed track sound property box ) as any self respecting route builder will tell you. But when those yards are standing unfilled or not included in the useable track database, it's a waste of effort that could have gone into producing the scenery around Midford, the Dawlish Sea Wall or the sweeping approach to Catesby Tunnel from Woodford Halse or Rugby Central. Any of which would have been more invigorating than Crewe to blooming Liverpool.

 

One other thing I spotted in the stream with the 8F, did it seem to me to have very little inertia when it comes to free rolling? The guy who was running the sim seemed to have to be constantly on the throttle to keep it moving. Maybe there was a slight gradient or a brake was sticking on, but would be interested if anyone else noticed that and their take on it. We had this with the Class 70 in TSC, when running light as soon as you closed the throttle it was like running on Velcro, or treacle.

 

If you mean the very on/off approach he was using they said that was something drivers did to give them more control at low speeds

 

In reality it's not 2 timetables it's a single timetable with extra layers available.

In some respects we already have it, many (mostly German) routes have additional layers hidden in the existing timetable which are activated if you own X,Y or Z DLC, at which point they come active.

All it would require is an option menu to decide if you want to run the extra layers or not.

 

Fair enough. It was hard to hear some of the commentary over the in game sound (especially the safety valve).

 

One thing I noticed in the 8F stream was the lack of a tail light on the goods train. The brake van carried side lamps but no tail lamp. As a former BR freight guard in the seventies, I can safely say this was a huge "No, No"

 

Furthermore it maintains the couplers in tension so there aren't any harmonic movements on the vehicles, resulting in sudden changes in coaches/wagons acceleration, individually.

 

The live stream tonight was unintentionally funny. Matt said there wasn't much scenery on the southern section. Yes, that's because you didn't finish it. It does exist in real life - trust me I used to live in the area!

The defence of the odd boaters on the male passengers was strange too. Most middle aged men of the era wore either trilbies, fedoras or caps - not boaters! They also wore jackets with ties almost everywhere - even when trainspotting. Many would be smoking. The women's fashions are also strange - they seem to be more 1930s, except those who are dressed in trousers from the 1970s.

There is a lot of fun to be had with this route but the lack of attention to detail and all the bugs really grates. I also wonder why they didn't put a green Class 40 in this route. It arrived on the WCML on 1958 and ran alongside Jubilees and 8Fs. I ran the blue version on the Manxman and it was a real blast. They could also have included a 101DMU in green which arrived in 1956.

 

In 1958 the first prototype Class 40s were being trialed in East Anglia. They didn't enter service on the WCML until the latter half of 1959.

No 101s ever ran there, until years later.

 

I like the people complaining about realism and asking for completely unrealistic things in the same post. Shows again that realism is very subjective.

 

There's an incorrect signal sequence between Wavertree and Edge Hill on the Down. Double Yellow, followed by the Outer Home at clear, then the Inner Home at Danger. A double yellow can't protect a set of Home signals in that way - there needs to be a single yellow / caution in between. I've run it twice to check I hadn't missed anything.

I did worry that, given the issues which still exist with semaphores on NTP, DTG had set themselves a huge challenge re-creating a route with a complex mix of semaphore and multiple aspect signalling, and so it's proving. Hopefully these things can be addressed as there's loads which is good about SoS.

 

Now it’s out the door, I don’t see DTG doing much to it except for correcting gameplay bugs and continued development of manual firing. History shows us from other routes that other complaints such as questionable physics, sparse scenery, mixed coach liveries in service mode, will be left as is. Their business model dictates that they simply move on to the next DLC and maybe, just maybe, if there’s an improvement to steam physics in a future route, the 8F and 6P will possibly be retrofitted. Don’t get me wrong, I am thoroughly enjoying this DLC, but some things never change!

 

Strange that DTG didn't set it in 1959 then just to get a little more variety.

 

well, it is a game, made for players with 2022 thoughts, values and so on,

so why can't this alternate history have diesel loco's, DMU's, nuclear powered broad gauge trains etc?

 

Lol well there is off the rails mode.

I think as long as it is optional it is fine, people should be able to run what they want on any route, it is their trainset.

However the sim isn't set up like that. Obviously if a diesel DLC gets released for SOS then you have a choice to purchase it or not, but if it is layered in then those who want to run what was on the route at a certain time then have to put up with layers they don't want, see WCL for details! There are more of us stick in the mud purists than you realise

Personally if some diesel DLC was released which fitted the route I would purchase it.

 

Originally they wanted 1955, but couldn’t find enough reference material

 

Personally I would have preferred something like 1951: the post ‘56 loco emblem and maroon coaches are to me synonymous of the era of decay and government-sponsored vandalism of our railways. The worst stupidity - the ripping up of the permanent way and the giving away of the land, which should never, never, never have been sanctioned.

 

They could have made a best guess. If there's not much reference material and not many people left alive who can accurately recall that era then a little artistic licence wouldn't have gone amiss. Let's face it, what those who have bought the route got is probably not 100% accurate to 1958 anyway, again same thing, anyone vertical and interested in train sims who can say with authority something is wrong would be in their mid 70's at least.

 

When we have the amount of loco addons, it will give this route an entire fresh start.

Also i wish next route would be an extension to this one, the maerdy branch or a route in a transition era.

 

Yes I know. It's what the boss (or apparently former boss as he's now apparently semi retired) wanted to see in the game, to recall trainspotting days at Crewe in 1958. Except there was rather more motive power variety than Jubilees and 8F's.

 

Fast - but it’s an incorrect signal sequence either way. To be clear, the issue isn’t that there’s a multiple aspect signal protecting the home signals. It’s the fact that the multiple aspect signal shows a double yellow when one of the home signals is at danger. It should show a single yellow.