Boston-providence: Is There A Prayer Of It Being Fixed?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by solicitr, Jul 8, 2022.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, has DTG even whispered an intent of fixing this route's completely whacked in-cab signaling? Because as it is, it's intolerable to crawl across New England at 20 mph. Just now I went back and re-did the cab car tutorial - as far as I ever got - in the faint hope that something might have been done-- but, no, it's still totally f*cked.

    I don't like to use the word "unplayable," especially since the route can be played with ATC/ACSES turned off- but I won't drive like that . As far as I'm concerned, this route is just bloatware shoveled into the Dresden-Brighton bundle, and will remain so until the garbage signaling is overhauled. For the foreseeable future, it remains with LIRR in my junk drawer.
     
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  2. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    It's most likely not gonna be fixed for a long while. I remember dtg and cactus juice who made the route saying that it is a very complex issue and can't be solved in a short time frame. They haven't really done enough routes with atc/acses compared to pzb on German routes which they've basically mastered by now. Will a fix come soon? Probably not. Are they aware of the issue? Yes. But again, the signalling is still broken
     
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  3. 5cip

    5cip Active Member

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    this and so many routes have big potential if we could create scenarios where we could use any platform and place rolling stock everywhere i want and so to create shunting routes or communter routes but with this scenario planner i cant be creative due to less options.
    and yea atc is broken should be normally fixed fast and not takin years
     
  4. StenioBlackHawnk

    StenioBlackHawnk Active Member

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    Oh, and btw don't forget that Sherman Hill in cab signals still broken, and looks like will be like that for a loooooong time yet ...
     
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  5. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I suspect it will take two years to fix
     
  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Whenever I’ve taken a run on the route, it’s been with a deep sigh and the in cab signalling switched off. It’s a fairly boring run anyway, even more so at 20 MPH. Not to mention whoever compiled the Journey mode seemed to have a fetish with setting all the runs in winter/snow.
    Like most DLC it is another “fire and forget” release, in fact I think that should be the company motto, whatever the Latin translation is.

    Here you go… “dimittere et oblivisci”.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
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  7. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still incredibly bitter about this. It's approaching a year since this route came out and still nothing. I understand it's a complex issue but waiting this long is inexcusable.

    I think if I ever met Matt in person the first thing I'd ask him would be "why haven't you fixed Boston Sprinter yet"? This would be followed closely by "why haven't you updated the 375 and ECW 377 sounds yet"? But that's for another thread.
     
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  8. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    There have been a few fixes already, and Cactus stated that he's working on it in his spare time.
     
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  9. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Guess this is one of those "in the eye of the beholder" thing. I run Boston route a lot and have no problems with the signal issues. Usually get gold stars on most runs and accept the issues as, it's a train and s..t happens. These days in the US, there is no such thing a 'perfect' run. Something always seems to screw it up, so sit back and just enjoy the run.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
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  10. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    A healthy way to look at it really, but still very annoying it doesn’t work properly.
     
  11. horchata

    horchata New Member

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    the annoying looping brake sound on the cab cah should be an easy fix if this route is going to get a little love on down the line just saiyan
     
  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There are alot of things that can be an easy fix. But dtg have their own priorities on what to fix
     
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  13. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    If you are talking about the brake sound in the cab car, just don't turn on the brake switch in the panel above the window and it won't do it.
     
  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    How can you "enjoy the run" at 20 mph, where the line limit is 60 or better (and there is no traffic requiring a crawl)?
     
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  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    On that topic, does the cab car have dynamic braking? I couldn't find a lever, and the keyboard commands don't work.
     
  16. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    No
     
  17. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    When this happens at the start of a run, it usually means something has happened to trigger restricted mode. Could be as simple as the train rolled backwards when you started off. When I get this I just exit and restart which usually corrects this probem.
     
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  18. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    This is the switch that you want to leave off to prevent that brake releasing sound. It is the double gang braker on the right of the box. The other 2 have to be turned on for the loco to run. bandicam 2022-07-09 15-04-54-055.jpg
     
  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But then, "restricted mode" never comes off, unlike, say, PZB restricted monitoring. So there is no solution, and it's really that easy to trigger?
     
  20. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    The only solution to having triggered it to stay on is the exit and restart which usually works. Once this has been triggered there is no cure while you continue to run. Its a fault in the game, from what I can see, but, like most of these faults, we need the work around until or if DTG corrects this. As for triggering, yes, its easy. I have done it by inadvertently pushed the brakes into emergency which setting up the cab.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  21. wcwood92

    wcwood92 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve done lots of runs and had no problems with the ACSES or ATC.
    Reference the NORAC signal chart and react to the lights when you see them. Also know your limits for curves and interlockings.
    In the streams leading up to the release they described ACSES as a reactionary system but I don’t think that’s entirely true.
    I try to stay ahead of it and I get through runs without a problem.

    I also wonder if players are going 90 mph because the cab signal says so. They should be doing 79 in the commuter rail trains.
    Maybe speeding is causing them to catch up to another service and the ATC is forcing them down to maintain separation.

    It’s also worth noting that those trains are sometimes really slow in reality. Delays are also common.

    Here’s a link to that signal chart
    https://signals.jovet.net/rules/NORAC Signal Rules.pdf
     
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  22. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It doesn’t as far as I know. Not even the MBTA F40 has a dedicated dynamic brake lever from what I recall - only blended braking via the auto brake.

    Are you sure about that? I could have sworn the 79mph limit only applied if no PTC was installed (and ATC+ACSES serve as PTC on the NEC).
     
  23. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    It's cuz the single level coaches have a max speed of 79mph. Bilevels have 90mph max
     
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  24. CrazyDash

    CrazyDash Well-Known Member

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    At this point you would think they could just overhaul the signaling since they got ACSES down on Harlem. Another huge issue with this route is that the scenery is really poor. The trench area after Back Bay is completely inaccurate. There is also a lot of floating scenery, and some areas such as Mansfield that feel incomplete.
     
  25. wcwood92

    wcwood92 Well-Known Member

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    Lamplight I believe the MBTA has a systemwide speed limit of 79 mph. Probably has something to do with the rolling stock.

    But to answer your question, no I’m not sure. I just play that way based on some brief research and it’s been working for me
     
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  26. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    yes it does. Based on a route suggestion I watched single level coaches go 79mph and bilevels go 90 which the hsp usually does
     
  27. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    rennekton#1349, wcwood92, thanks for your input. I just found it odd that a piece of rolling stock has such an uneven speed limit like 79mph.
     
  28. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    79 mph is a very common speed limit in the US. I don't know where the idea of these odd limit numbers came from instead of, say, 80 mph, but that is the way it is. Also placing speed limits on pieces of rolling stock is common as most already know from the fact it happens all over the world, though most countries do pick even number, in 60, 65, 70, 75, etc. limits.
     
  29. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    In cab signaling is required for 80 mph and higher.
     
  30. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    In case someone is interested in the legal background..

    49 CFR § 236.0 Applicability, minimum requirements, and penalties.
    ...
    (d) (1) Prior to December 31, 2015, where any train is permitted to operate at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop, or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part shall be installed, unless an FRA approved PTC system meeting the requirements of this part for the subject speed and other operating conditions, is installed.
    (2) On and after December 31, 2015, where any train is permitted to operate at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, a PTC system complying with the provisions of subpart I shall be installed and operational, unless FRA approval to continue to operate with an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop, or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part has been justified to, and approved by, the Associate Administrator.

    49 CFR § 236.567 Restrictions imposed when device fails and/or is cut out en route.
    ...
    (c) Upon reaching the location where an absolute block has been established in advance of the train, as referenced in paragraph (b) of this section, the train may proceed at speeds not to exceed the following:
    (1) If no block signal system is in operation and the train is a passenger train, 59 miles per hour;
    (2) If no block signal system is in operation and the train is a freight train, 49 miles per hour; and
    (3) If a block signal system is in operation, 79 miles per hour.

    If I am not mistaken, this rule dates back to an ICC regulation following the Naperville train disaster.
     
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  31. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    It's a shame this hasn't been fixed. Mind you, we're still waiting for the UK signalling to operate realistically as well (approach control for slow speed junctions). Hoping the next UK route will have this working properly.
     
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  32. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I know. I’m very familiar with the concept from German railroading. It was just the odd number that threw me off :D Also, I find it weird that the single-level coaches have the same odd speed limit which is also the limit for non-PTC trains. That’s why I’m wondering if there’s some link there.
     
  33. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I am sure its like this in Germany also, rolling stock has to undergo certification tests before being placed in service. Could very well be that the single level coaches were only certified for 79 since they are much older than the bilevel ones.
     
  34. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Ah, yes, that might well be the case. Thanks :)
     
  35. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Also, keep in mind that the route from Boston to Providence is only a part of the MBTA network and the rest is 79 mph or slower anyway.
     
  36. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Getting back to the OP:
    I played a couple of services and it really IS a lot better than it used to be.
    Still some quirks and inconsistencies between the fixed signals and the cab equipment (especially between South Attleboro and Providence and in the Boston South Station area), imho, but you can work with it now.
    Would be interesting what they did, because I didn't see anything in the update notes.
    But hey, good job, now playing this pretty DLC is actually fun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2022
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Fine; but since in game all three cabs do have ATC/ACSES......
     
  38. DarkWolf

    DarkWolf Active Member

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    I don't know if it affects the F-40PH-3C or the CTC-3 but there is an issue with the ACS-64's reverser handle that will cause the ATC/ACSES to get stuck at 20mph. If after putting the reverser handle in and moving it to the Forward, Neutral or Reverse position you move it back to the Out position it makes the ATC\ACSES change to a 20mph limit and it will never change again unless you restart the service.

    This is easy to replicate with any Providence to Boston service as when the service starts you have a 30mph limit but when you move the reverser back to Out it beeps and changes to 20mph.

    If you set the reverser to Neutral when you are first setting up the train and loading passengers it can be easy to move it a tick too far when putting it into Forward such that you trip that Out setting. I've had several instances of unexplained slow downs with ATC\ACSES but this reverser issue is the only time I've ever seen it get permanently stuck at 20mph.

    DW
     
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  39. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have any qualms moving them beyond 79 mph, if ATC/ACSES allow for it.
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The more relevant issue is the rolling stock Vmax- they may well be capped at 79, since they are older coaches from when 79 was the national rail speed limit. But that would make most T services impossible to keep on time, since the timetable was (as usual) based on Ai timings.
     
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  41. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    From this thread, as well as previous similar threads, and my own playing, this is what I have gathered:

    1) On any generic NEC-BP run, you can get a restricted ATC display if you go into emergency, or adjust the reverser, or even just roll backwards.
    2) If this happens, it can still be possible to continue on. The ATC typically will reset itself once you pass a signal that has some aspect other than clear. Unfortunately, this is usually near the end of the runs. You would want to turn ATC off until you eventually get to such a signal. Then you can turn it back on, and it should be accurate. Obviously, this is not optimal, but it may be better than just quitting if you have already been driving for a while.
    3) It is my understanding that in reality the MBTA train that is represented had a max speed of 80 mph on this route. The game lets you go up to 90 with no penalty, and in fact if you try to stay at 80 you will probably lose time, although it would be more realistic. I don't think this has anything to do with the ATC problem, because the Amtrak train can have the ATC problem too, but it's not common because you have very few station stops using Amtrak, and thus fewer chances to trigger the ATC bug.
    4) Finally, I do not think this bug will ever be fixed. Most of the updates to NEC-BP ended up causing new problems , such as the brake hiss noise on the CTC, which is a relatively new issue. It started when the speed display on the cab signalling was fixed. That problem started when the ATC acknowledge on the F40 was fixed. I think you can see where I'm going. The route works better now than it ever did before. Hopefully everyone can enjoy it this way, but I completely understand if not. Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  42. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I've been on time with a max speed of 80.
     
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  43. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  44. CrazyDash

    CrazyDash Well-Known Member

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    Same. I am usually no later than 1-2 minutes
     
  45. wcwood92

    wcwood92 Well-Known Member

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    The biggest thing I've done to master this route is learn the signal aspects above and react as soon as I see them. Stay way ahead of that braking curve. I do use the HUD for signal location and speed restrictions. I have the signal HUD grayed out so I don't know what the signal will say, only where it is located. For me this is most realistic on any route because a professional would know these things and anticipate them. This is supposed to be fun, I'm not memorizing anything.

    Keep in mind the transponders in the track are considered signals on the HUD.

    Approach limited and limited clear are the most common ones I see.
    When I see approach limited I slow to 45 mph, knowing that I'll soon have a transponder demanding that speed.
    When I see limited clear I know that I'm restricted to 45 until the train clears the interlocking, then I can resume speed.
    If the display in the cab differs, always take its word over mine.

    Advance approach and approach are also important. Those are equivalent to your double yellow and single yellow in the UK. They also demand an ATC speed. 20 mph maybe, I forget.

    One thing I do believe they fixed is the ATC and ACSES braking you to the speed you're supposed to be at, and then releasing. When the route first came out, the brakes seemed to not release, which caused a lot of frustration.

    Point is, stay ahead of all the restrictions and you should be fine. If you're trying to play catch up you're gonna get into trouble.
    And if you're late... well then you truly experienced driving the MBTA. :D
     
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  46. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    How about the Ruggles Northbound platform since that one is actually part of the station and has a direct link to the Bus platforms. I was there last Friday. That is missing in-game since I made a post about it
     
  47. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't there at the time the route is set.
     
  48. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    What year was that platform built then? I'm guessing 2019-2022 since it has a direct link to the bus bay.
     

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