Spirit of Steam came out, great route, brings back my memories of when I fired the Jubilees between Bristol and Sheffield in the 1960,s. Pretty accurate driving methods, i.e start off on 50% cut off, unless on grade, then as you pick up speed wind it back to around 15%, I did notice engine sounds stop "coughing" and a true "beat" starts as you get the cut off correct.. Rear damper half open front closed. Usually the driver would take charge of blower, opening it as he shut off regulator, to prevent blow backs..But set is as you want. Route scenery needs a bit of tidying, more lineside fences and telegraph poles and the ones there are moved closer to running lines. But the Rolling Stock and stations, superb. A great route and worth buying the package with TSW2
Nice to hear a knowledgable evaluation. Suspect the line side details are limited by hardware and software requirements.
Agreed, I find such feedback from someone who clearly knows what they're talking about very valuable. Thanks jetgriff
This is good to hear. It’s also nice to hear that I’ve been driving it fairly correctly with my cut off settings. I’ll probably keep the firing on auto though. And I also agree that it is a great route. I wasn’t sure I’d enjoy driving steam as much as I am and only bought it on release as it is my local route but I can’t get enough of it. Trying to shave time off each time I repeat a run is a great challenge.
Does it matter if the passenger on the platform is using a Nokia 3210 in 1958? To some of us, historical accuracy matters.
why is it so important to you that a female isn't on the footplate? I mean unlike mobile phones they existed in 1958...
If they implement full manual firing and.. get it accurate I can manage ok, I did back in the 1960's when the locos were falling to bits through lack of maintenance. Having to relieve a Jubilee that had come from York working hard into Birmingham then have to nurse it through to Bristol with powdered coal and nuts and a clinkered up fire, not easy but at least we had the New Street pilot to bank us out and 5 mins going down Lickey Incline to break up the clinker. great days.... nice to relive them.
The ongoing debate about whether sexism and racism should be programmed into TSW is a certainly one of the most enlightening forum discussions thus far. Cheers
No, I am asking you, why is it important to you they aren't there? Why does the mere presence of a female on the footplate stop you from driving "properly and realistically"? Answer: it doesn't, you just feel uncomfortable because this is one of the aspects of life where you are made to feel superior and in a place where they shouldn't have a voice or a presence as a staff member, they should be sat in the first class carriage in a nice dress. Their presence is therefore a threat to you and your patriarchal norms of male superiority. https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...h-warren-loss-2020-sexism-misogyny-kate-manne
Why cant people be allowed to enjoy the route and post positive feedback about it, without the conversation going back again to female NPC on the footplate. If you are that triggered by it, dont buy it. You've all made your feelings known to DTG (and the forums) and they arent going to change it and IMO quite rightly too.
Ah yes, anyone who disagrees with me with me is an ist and phobe and pure evil. The response of those with the inability to debate. Some of us support the recreation of history - with all of it's good and bad. A simulation would be the place I expect to see that. If they created a royal train in 1958 with passengers, but replaced HM Queen Elizabeth II with a made up King I'd be just as vocal about the rewriting of history. If they took all of the women passengers out of all the routes I'd be just as vocal about that. Does that make me a misogynist?
No but bringing it up at every opportunity makes you sound like a broken record. SoS has female staff on the footplate. That's not going to change and we've all heard the arguements for and against this numerous times. It's not going to change so it's time to either live with it or stop playing it. Repeating yourself isn't going to change anything other than antagonise those on the opposite arguement and result in name calling (which I don't agree with) and threads shut down.
Appreciated, but I didn't bring it up - as ever it intrigues me how much inaccuracy people will accept in a historical recreation, hence my comment about the mobile phone. It's also a bit odd how we can go over other issues with TSW2 that are historically or technically inaccurate ad infinitum, it's seems only this one that those who disagree have to shut up and accept it. I've seen you bring up the same issues (positive and negative) numerous times, does that make you a broken record that is allowed?
I don't like people that take this debate to the current separatist movements of our society. We are talking one thing only - History and historical accuratness - On that point I can talk since I am a reenactor for more than 16 years and I feel I have a say on these questions - sometimes History in not to our own liking or to the liking of modern societies values. But above all else History is... what it was. And so, if historical accuracy is a factor, it has to be apllied and no judgment should be passed on past times on the light of modern days. Simple as that.
Disagree with this. Judgement should ALWAYS be passed on past times, but that shouldn't mean that the past is erased to satisfy the needs of the now. It is very much true that if we don't learn from past mistakes we are doomed to repeat them and you cannot learn if something is not "out there". Whether that "out there" needs to take place in a game about trains is a matter left to others
Most subjects don't result in name calling either labelling people "ist", "woke" etc etc (depending which side your on).
I’d just like historical accuracy, I wouldn’t expect a female rear gunner in (say) a Lancaster of a ww2 flight sim and I didn’t expect to see one in a 1958 BR steam loco, its as simple as that.
I was on a steam train the other week with a female on the footplate. When she backed the engine up to the carriages and stopped it perfectly with a couple of mm to spare, the a hole who was making sarcy comments on the platform must have felt like a right you know what! Who can actually say that its a fact you didnt find women on the footplate in 1958? Women where flying spitfires in the 1940s.
THERE WERE NO WOMEN ON THE FOOTPLATE IN1958............FACT. They did not even work the mainline on the footplate from 1939 - 1945 (that's WW2 in case you don't know) Females did not work down the coal mines in the UK either. They did lot's of what were male jobs during WW2. But at wars end they had to give back the jobs, to the men coming home from the war. My mother worked in the RND Mine Depot in Milford Haven, making sea mines.
So your telling me a father never took he's daughter on a footplate not ever! or a husband never took he's wife on one either. You know that for a fact, Because your some kind of robot with the entire history of the railways in your head?
Well... we will always be doomed to repeat them. Our nature and drive has not changed that much in 20.000 years. The problem is that those that learn are doomed to watch it happen one more time... So let's just sit back and watch steam engines roll by.
Grow up everyone, especially the old people who should know better. [edit by Protagonist - you're better than that]
Get this thread back on topic. Here's the reality of the situation: we allow all races and genders the game currently contains to occupy any crew or passenger position, this is how the game has always been. In fact it would require us to make code changes in order to be less inclusive, and that simply doesn't align with Dovetail Games as a company. Since objections to this policy have been made repeatedly, using it as a means of disrupting otherwise constructive threads will be seen as trolling.
I do not mind whether it is a man or woman shoveling the coal, but seeing them dress in a suit with a tie, that is really not appropriate to the kind of work. I would think the person doing the shoveling would be dress in clothes that would be much easier to clean than a suit, and even more importantly that allow him/her to be cooled easily, a suit would be very hot for that kind of work, not even counting the heat from the furnace
And these two quotes are a perfect example as to why historical accuracy is important - because they are both totally incorrect, based on assumptions and not facts. The daughter/wife on the footplate is a ridiculous premise because even if it happened (and it may well have on a VERY rare occasion) they would have been a 3rd person and a spectator (maybe with a "hey do you want to throw on a shovelful" when the moment was quiet). You seem to base your assumption on a fireman's job as if anyone can do it - chuck on some coal, anywhere, whenever you feel like it and it's good to go. Fireman was a HIGHLY skilled job and the fireman would have had intimate knowledge of the road ahead and the locomotive. These things were basically mobile bombs.. you didn't replace the fireman for a turn with a random family member. It's a nonsense argument and makes your point even weaker if that is all you have. As for you not thinking what they are wearing is correct.. a simple google image search will show you that DTG have this correct for the period. Cotton trousers and jacket, shirt underneath and a tie. These were different times, adults could cope with a little discomfort without running to HR crying. The uniform was a matter of pride. All of this would be known to anyone who read even one historical book or even a biography from the time period (I'd highly recommend the memoirs of Harold Gasson, a very easy read and with great humour). On saying all this, I accept that DTG are not going to change their position, and that is their choice as it's their game. But don't try and justify it for them by changing history or making bizarre claims about what might have happened as a weird exception. It does nothing but make you look ignorant of history.
If you think a woman never stepped foot on a steam engine throughout their history your the one who's ignorant! I know how a coal boiler works! I didn't need to read a book to work that out. And I love history! I'm somewhat a local historian in my parts. To assume I'm stupid and to feel the need to explain the dangers of boilers to me (something I already know) points me to believe you are pretty narrow minded my friend. I could easily disassemble a steam locomotive and put it back together again. I'm a engineer. An engineer with a open mind, I explore all the possibilities, just because someone says you can't doesn't mean it isn't possible, just because a history book says it didn't happen doesn't mean there's no possibility it happened. I'm not defending dtg. It's obvious to me why there's women drivers and firewomen in the game. I've not got a problem with it whatsoever. It just makes me cross when narrow minded people stuck in the past complain about it. Its a game not a history lesson!
Not at all what I said. Maybe be less hysterical and read. I said based on historical evidence I don't believe that one ever fired a steam loco on a turn in 1958. Even if it happened once as an anomaly (again still highly unlikely) is that the basis that we create a historical recreation from. Are you aware that there were times when coal was short that some locos ran on what was essentially glued nuggets of brick and coal dust? It was awful stuff, blocked up the grates and made raising steam really hard. It happened. So if DTG based their simugraph model on this and made their steam locos almost impossible to fire that would be fine for you - because "it happened". It was by far and away not the norm in any sense, but it happened so it's all good. A local historian with a disdain for history is an interesting position to take. I note you didn't actually refute my argument directly, just misquote it and rant about how awesome an engineer you are. Also knowing how a steam loco works speaks nothing towards your historical knowledge of the time, how sheds worked, how crew were trained, the social situation for railway workers, which is what's actually relevant to this point. But you are correct on one thing, it's just a game. So anything goes, nothing matters, it's all 1's and 0's. Nothing needs to make sense or be correct.
Don't be so ridiculous, you know exactly what i meant. Females working as firemen on BR or even pre-nationalised railway companies, were non existent. As to history, my major interests are railway history 1825 - 1996 and military history of the 20th century. As i said in another thread, i do not make statements, unless i know i am 100% correct. Also my family background on my fathers side, is GWR\BR-WR going back to the mid 19th century. By 1958, women were back in their rightful place ( views of the era, not mine). Housewives, shop assistants, clippies (not even drivers). Your knowledge of the period is obviously, from a very skewed 21st century view. As for DTG and their inclusiveness, revisionist historians, get right up my nose.
DTG aren't historians... Maybe they just shouldn't make steam era routes so as to avoid the historical appreciation society?
You don't need to be a historian to research a historical context you want to recreate. I'm not a historian but I can look up how many gears a Class 101 has and see that the DTG version matches it, so I can infer that it's accurate on that point. Does that make me a historian now I've done that? Do you think DTG staff don't do any research into the period they build routes for? Rather rude. I know a few of them.. they do a lot of research! And in fairness DTG have never defended their decision by saying it was historical (even in an outside case), it's just what they've chosen. I don't agree with it, but I can't argue with it from that point of view. As I said, their game, their choice. But the people here twisting reality, rewriting history and making up ridiculous outside cases to defend that decision.. honestly, I feel like you are all just making yourselves look foolish. But maybe those of us hoping for accuracy to the period are the foolish ones.
When we have routes with mixed era trainsets then I think personally this is a bigger immersion killer and issue then a woman fireman
Sorry, you misunderstood. DTG are game makers, they want to create trains as faithfully as they can, but not necessarily everything about the railway being completely accurate. If you want that then I guess DTG aren't the company for you This is true of modern routes, historic routes, timetables, passengers... We don't even have a proper platform dispatching system So the question then becomes "is it close enough?" I don't necessarily agree with the other person's argument, no wife on the footplate would be shovelling coal in their nice dresses, but I don't agree that just because a particular type of person wasn't their in reality should absolutely preclude them being there in a game. That's MY view. Yours differs (I would also not criticise the research undertaken by DTG or others, though sometimes the OUTCOME of said research isn't always the best)
I'm well aware of what was defined as a womans place in 1958. Also the fact that it was highly unlikely for a woman to be given the role of a driver or fireman or any other role in the railway industry. My point is that even though its highly unlikely to see a woman standing on the footplate of a steam locomotive in 1958 it's not unheard of. Of course things being the way they was back then such examples of this wouldn't be in the history books. Not every second of our history is documented either. This is 2022 women are equal (not that they haven't always been) but in this day and age, if dtg don't give you the choice to have a woman driver or fireman/woman it's being biased. And that is not acceptable today. Whilst dtg are trying to represent the railway as it was in 1958 they can't be bias towards women in doing so. It may have not been acceptable to most men in 1958 but it is today.
Agreed there are a lot of things wrong or unprototypical. I guess this one felt like an easy correction, it's also less work - they only have to create 1 body for the footplate crew, not 2 (controversial opinion but men and women generally have different body shapes) I guess this might be the truth that's dawning on me. Which is a shame, because on this point they've been getting it accurate for over a decade - all TSC footplate crew are period accurate. If anything they took the lazy way out with routes like WSR and still kept it all male when they could have added in some female staff who are very much a part of preservation railways - and grateful we are for it to. Anyone who gives up their time and energy to keep heritage railways running will never get a bad word from me. The annoyance comes from this being a 2020 thing. Everything is diversity and inclusion (which for modern times is ok, I'm all for equality of opportunity) but history is being rewritten constantly in an attempt to make it more palatable to modern taste. That shouldn't be how history works and it feels like a constant chipping away at the past. I "play trains" to step back to a time that is long gone (I've been really enjoying the 1980's BR blue in TSW of late and previously diesels held no charm for me), so I want it as accurate as it can be. As you say, it's seems DTG have "moved on" from that.
There are enough records to show it didn't happen - anything more is tin foil hat territory. But based on that argument every footplate should have a dog and a cat on it - I can guarantee someone took their pet or a local stray up on the footplate at some point. Not to mention a spotty little oik grasping his Ian Allan in one hand and a half chewed pencil in the other (they could even use photos of 10yr old Paul Jackson to make him). What about a wheelchair? Or does the righteous anger not go as far as disability? This "it may have happened once" is such a weak argument for it to be happening 50% of the time. This is the real kicker though "if dtg don't give you the choice to have a woman driver or fireman/woman" I agree... and it it was a CHOICE, I wouldn't even be posting. But the fireman is a random selection from a pool that is not always accurate to the period. If the pool was 50% steam era clothing and 50% orange jackets I'd be saying the same. And if this was about the driver avatar I wouldn't even be here - your game, your choice of avatar, you do you. But the same way I don't want to see 1950's passenger in a pair of 80's levis or leg warmers or a shell suit I want my experience on the footplate to be authentic - or at least have the choice to make it so. That would be what I'd like - I'm not demanding it's removed. The modelling work is already done and some people want it, so make it a choice. Currently, it isn't. Maybe the invisible fireman is DTG trying to be inclusive to people who wish they didn't exist?
I was gonna say you can always head into the scenario designer where the fireman is invisible but you have already noticed. Maybe dtg will give you the choice of who is on the footplate in the future, but as it stands at the moment it's like you say, just random. If it really matters to people then all I can suggest for now is to keep restarting the scenario until a man is placed on the footplate.
I know you want realism but tsw is basically an arcade type game, dtg no longer only has to accommodate the pc community, they are accommodating the console community now and with that comes a whole load of terms and conditions to abide to! Now if some little girl says to her mum or dad why aren't there no girls in this train game I'm playing and the mum or dad puts in a complaint to Sony or Microsoft, you can guarantee dtg will be in breach of something! Then somewhere along the line someone's gonna want compensating for being a little upset, before you know it more people are gonna want compensation, then Sony and Microsoft are gonna want compensation! Where does that leave dtg? Bankrupt! Which leaves us with no train simulator game anymore.
jetgriff Stepping aside the other facets of this discussion, I just wanted to say it's great to see your feedback and that you're enjoying the content Thanks for the great words and I look forward to seeing more from you. Matt.
Which brings us neatly round to the, because it’s not historically accurate. You cannot change or dispute what is a fact. Just as highly likely in 1958 there were no or certainly very few mainline steam crew of any ethnic origin other than white. Otherwise we end up in the murky waters of TV casting where we have sight of oriental or African people appearing in Viking or Ango Saxon era dramas. It just looks and feels wrong, regardless of the ability of the actor.
