Do You Think There Is A World Wide Plot To Move People Onto Public Transport And Away From Cars?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Skyz2020, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the World Economic Forums outlook for us all it would seem a great reset has been triggered and an undercurrent of removing private ownership (cars) is underway in favour of more of a leasing based system (public transport including trains)

    This can be felt in owning a car and increased costs associated with car driving and minor things like Wales new 20mph limit forcing people onto public transport

    As a rail fan I feel split between enjoyment of using my favourite transport rail and a sneaky feeling the powers at be really don't like the freedoms of a car can give to ordinary citizens

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  2. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It won't happen, people are too wedded to owning cars. Many people still rather travel by car to work and sit in traffic jams and pay exorbitant prices for fuel rather than take the train or the bus. Being a petrol head as well as a train enthusiast I would certainly be against any efforts to remove car ownership. The public transport system in many areas, particularly rural areas is woefully inadequate. I play the organ in a village on a Sunday morning and getting there by train or bus for the time I need to be there is physically impossible.

    If the powers that be are really trying to take away the freedoms of citizens by moving us out of cars, which I don't for a minute think they are, then 1984 really has arrived and we should all be concerned.

    However all this technology, phones, satnavs etc, which I embrace as much as the next person is actually slowly and silently stripping us of our character and individuality and of course if you are really paranoid, could be a sign of the powers that be stealthily exerting control over us. We are heading towards an identikit society in so many ways.
     
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  3. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    A social credit score society is what you mean by identikit?

    Yes I agree tech is very addictive presently, especially smart phones.

    Let's keep an eye on the used car price and how high petrol remains... along a long enough time line people will get forced out of cars... I think..
     
  4. zefreak

    zefreak Active Member

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  5. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    1. The auto + fuel industries are much richer than the public transit industry, so any conspiracy would favor the former, not the latter. But...
    2. World leaders would be unable to even agree on pizza toppings, so there will never be a worldwide plot to do anything.
     
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  6. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Not if the way the buses are run in Liverpool are anything to go by. Not a bus lane in sight.
     
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  7. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    I'm always amazed at how many people believe all the world's goverments are colluding with each other on a New World Order, yet are so incompetent at it that the whole thing apparently gets exposed by one random guy on YouTube..
     
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  8. The way I look at it is my government wants to ban the sales of new petrol and diesel vehicles by 2030. This doesn't mention banning the sale of cars already on the road, and considering there's plenty of cars still on the UK roads that are 40 years old or more, and considering the cars of today don't disintegrate no where near as quick as the 40 year old ones! Internal combustion is gonna be around for quite a while. There's always electric vehicles but the price of electricity is a joke! The cleaner it gets the more expensive it becomes.

    Look at rail freight in the UK. Rail freight companies are favouring diesel traction over electric. Even though the price of diesel is ridiculous at the moment, its still cheaper than electricity!

    And are the Governments even pulling the strings these days?
     
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  9. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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  10. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Note during this discussion I will not be posting any links to YouTube with people wearing tin foil hats, 4 views and talking about 5g

    Let's keep this factual and fun :)
     
  11. fabdiva

    fabdiva Well-Known Member

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    Cars bring a lot of problems with them, for example pollution, land use (especially in the US where a new building legally has to provide a massive car park) etc

    There is a growing movement to make urban areas more people based then vehicle based (compare say Houston to Amsterdam) and encouraging more active travel and public transport over car travel. And urban areas are somewhere where this is possible. I'm currently looking to move and even though I have a car I'm absolutely looking for the area to be walkable and with public transport as an option. (So not a out of town Persimmon estate that you have to drive everywhere from) because while I have a car I don't want to be dependent on it.

    But don't worry too much about it becoming too big of a thing here, the Treasury counts lost fuel duty against public and active travel investment, so while small scale locally funded car restrictions may happen, they'll have a hard case getting national funding.

    Then you have the likes of Elon Musk who is opposed to mass transit, but instead wants governments to build his low capacity proprietary systems that are intended for the rich. Like Hyperloop or the stupid tunnels for Teslas only.

    At the end of the day with urban motoring it's about balancing the needs of the people driving through on their way to somewhere else, vs those that live there. I'd argue 20mph in towns and villages is fine, you are either through them in a few mins or traffic means you can't do more then 20 anyway
     
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  12. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is somewhat true and can't come soon enough, we are also seeing nations like France trying to incentivise HSR compared to domestic air travel.

    This comes from the realisation that the number of cars need to go down for a plethora of reasons, not least of which the environmental one.

    I don't think for a second that humanity will abandon cars altogether, but if there is an alternative to using a car, there should definitely be incentives to use public transportation, which is inherently more efficient, particularly rail transport (trams, metro, LRT, etc...)

    Even if you picture your utopian future of full self driving electric cars, it's just more efficient and makes more sense to have a big vehicle that transport a lot of people, than have one 2t metal box transport 1-4 people. It's the same reason why currently freight rail transport in the US is much cheaper and efficient that trucks.

    Also recently the situation with natural gas and oil companies deiciding to widen their margins massively I think swayed some governments towards shifting people to public transport. I don't think they are colluding in a NWO-style thing, it's just that public transit vs cars just makes sense at such a fundamental level that is hard to justify moving in the opposite direction.

    BTW while all of this is happening the newly elected major in our city wants to axe a new tramway project. Infuriating :mad:

    Very sadly this is going to be much harder in the US due to the car dependency and car centric culture, but I hope the next generation will be able to think forward.

    A few non tin foil hats YT channels I follow
    Not Just Bikes
    City Nerd
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  13. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you FD.

    Can I ask do you think this shift might extend to a more wider adoption of everything being leased rather than owning?

    Also do you think from a generational perspective the zoomers (under 25s) are far more comfortable with the idea of not owning their own car / home / leisure equipment and prefer this up and coming leasing model of existence?
     
  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Not really, but I think we are in danger of being manipulated to all think and act the same.

    For example you go to a restaurant and many people are bent over looking at their phones rather than talking to each other. People now walk about like zombies glued to their phones. All cars now look the same and are often the same colour. New build homes all look the same, a new estate in the UK could be anywhere as houses seem now to be designed off the peg and mass produced not like the local craftmaship of old. At universities you get no platforming now of speakers rather than enabling a debate. Technology and automation is going to make many professions disappear. Technology is supposed to make life easier and more convenient but underneath that what is it actually doing for us?

    I am the last person to be a conspiracy theorist and I don't necessarily think it is being done on purpose but slowly I can see that we are in danger of becoming clones of one another.
     
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  15. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Hasn't that been tried before by messers Stalin and Mao?!
     
  16. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't like to comment that this direction is that far left leaning.

    However I am interested if this is a generational movement that maybe transcends pherhaps older values.

    I speak coming from the middle generation 35 - 49 that the difference in world outlook between someone at 65+ (most likely owns most of their things car/house) and someone at 25 (most likely rents / leases) is now becoming vast casm rather than a small gap

    I could be wrong but there is a fundamental shift happening, the question is how permanent, or will it learch back as these 25 year olds hit their 40s...I think once you've learnt to "own nothing and still be happy" it might be shift that doesn't revert...maybe
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I was being slightly tongue in cheek.

    I am the same generation as you but I don't think it is simply that the young generation are happy to lease.

    For houses, many first time buyers have simply been priced out of the housing market due to the stupidly high costs of houses now. In the UK owning a house has always been an aspiration much more than in many parts of continental Europe.

    For cars, this bring me back to my point of people being conditioned to all think the same. My first car was a £500 Renault 5, most of my friends first cars were in a similar mould. Now you see young people in new Mercedes, BMW's, Audis, Ford Focus's or maybe something smaller like a new Corsa, the like of which would have been unthinkable as a first car when I was young unless you were very middle class. You have to be seen nowadays to have the newest and shiny equipment, not just in cars but in everything and this is another factor of us all being clones of each other. You don't see many young people driving around in a £500 Corsa or Clio although I did see a young lad in one this morning which made me smile. I was proud of my first car, I owned it outright that to me is more important than looking cool. Being a slave to fashion is not a good ideal to be following.

    I have been trying to get a new part to repair my ten your old cooker, but the part has become obsolete so now I have to buy a new cooker, this is simply immoral in my opinion but you won't get governments legislating to help us keep old equipment going as it is not beneificial to them but they will try and force us into electric cars eventually when the technology is not ready for it, the infrastructure is not ready for it and for many the costs are prohibitive. Tell someone on minimum wage in West Bromwich that they should get an electric car and see what answer they respond with!

    I am railing against this by driving a 33 year old Maestro but I don't care about fashion and rather make do and mend than replace as I think this lazy throwaway society we are becoming is going too far and not good for the environment. Even cars have become white goods now.

    I certainly don't think there should be an onus to own a house, I think we have become too obsessed with it but it seems to be much more secure than renting.
     
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  18. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    No plot and definitely not world wide. In general it would be good for our planet to use cars less and walk or cycle more. Cars take a lot of space and cause serious health issues for people. Also promoting other ways of transport reduces traffic jam.

    In the western countries we consume as if we have three planets available and that is bad, very bad. We only have one planet and we will never get a second one. So our natural resource from non-biological origin are finite.So we must take care to re-sue them and we also make care not to die because we are polluting our world. Car traffic is one of the causes, but there is a lot more going on.
     
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  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So many things to unpack...
    The age of the car has kind of passed already because we now know what the burning of petrol and diesel does to the environment at large. Batteries are a stop gap so until we find another way of powering vehicles, have the infrastructure and people actually use whatever it is there will be a period of transition where cars are still harmful. Moreso for busses and trucks of course

    Are governments against cars? In some ways yes they are, and the main reasons I see for this is it's very much harder to legislate against pedestrians an cyclists, who are obviously much more vulnerable, so in towns and cities especially it's a case of how do we stop the idiot drivers doing 50 in a 30 or for most people about 40 in a 30 or stopping to allow people to cross because pedestrians may do that without addressing what's coming.
    The solution is to go down to a 20 in a lot of cases, meaning people will drive about 25, which means idiot pedestrians live more.

    I do agree with a lot of the difference in ownership of things, and a lot of this in the UK at least has to do with what happened in the 80s, the big Thatcher shift between public ownership of property to Private, and then further into company or corporate ownership rather than private. Look at the recent report where in coastal towns many places have 50% of houses not being lived in, they're either "second homes" used for tax avoidance, or rental properties where little tax is paid (such as Air BnB, Vrbo etc). Because we have so many homes and houses now owned by corporates on long term leases, or used for things other than living in, it does leave the people coming up into the housing market with nowhere to buy.
    We also have the fact of the 2008 crash where mortgages became a lot more expensive and harder to get, and the rocket of housing costs generally where back in the day a mortgage was 20% of a single income, and now it's something like 80-90% of a single income.

    Will the "now generation" be happy with not owning their home in thirty years? People are generally happy with how things are at a certain point in their lives, and that's usually because things get harder or change, or it's when they remember their life being the best. Of course it's all a matter of viewpoint, but I think that yes they would likely be "happy with their lot" mainly because they knew no different (I'm sure people at the end of steam trains were happy with them because that's what they knew, even though diesels became cheaper, faster, more efficient...)

    So much of life is true to this. Go back thirty years in the UK. Look at the telly where racism, sexism and intolerance was mainstream Saturday night stuff. Look at the food with three times as much salt as there is now. Look at the way people were treated generally and a lot has changed, both good and bad. Basically change happens and nothing much will stop it, and we can only hope it is actually for the better for people rather than to their detriment
     
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  20. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    The death of the car will be down to being forced to buy pure EV’s in 2030 if it ever happens? Unless they can drop the retail prices to those of an ICE car and more importantly cut the charging times down to around five mins in a charging station, increase the amount, reliability and uniformity of the charging process and network availability, and keep a lid on the inevitable rise in the cost of electricity for everyone if EV ownership was to be the only option, car ownership will drop like a stone and once again be the preserve of the rich few. I myself have made a decision already to abandon driving if EV’s are forced upon us, I’d rather walk, ride a bike, or if I must go electric for personal transport buy a scooter health permitting of course. I’m going to go on record here and say forced EV ownership is never going to come off in 2030, ICE cars will continue well into the foreseeable future using proper carbon neutral fuel both in emissions and process of manufacturing. It’s already happening because the world rally championship is already on board with development and is using a version of it today. Take it from me all you EV early adopters, your well and truly being sold a pup and being fleeced under the umbrella of saving the planet.

    As for being controlled you bet, it’s happening right now. Today we are living in a totally watched, monitored, unconsciously influenced, and controlled way in every aspect of our lives that makes Orwell’s 1984 look really quite tame. If this sounds scary then you need to be scared. I mean even your Alexa smart speaker is listening to you and gathering info on you all the time! Think I’m OTT with this view? Take a few mins to look at every aspect of your daily life and identity every aspect of it where your being watched, monitored. told what you can and can’t say, or indeed think. Quite sobering I guarantee it.

    The human race is definitely sleepwalking into an existence of totally controlled uniformity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why we "need to be scared". I think of it the other way.
    We shouldn't really give a monkeys about what information they have on us, and the only people who should be worried are those doing things which are illegal or fraudulent. Why should we care if amazon know what we spoke about last Thursday or what adverts they insert into browsers? I ignore them anyway
    Too many people get too het up about "what people know" when the real question should be "why should I care what other people think about me when they don't actually know me, nor do I care about them..."
    Of course if you have a medical condition and you haven't told your insurer then that may be an issue for you
     
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  22. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Seriously! I think it’s pretty obvious the many reasons why we should be scared. Surely I shouldn’t need to type a lengthy reply here to point them out to you??? I find that pretty scary tbh and I mean you no personal offence.

    Apart from anything else I’d quite like to stay anonymous when I go about my daily life even if I am law abiding. Surely it’s up to me to choose where and when I tell people or what I actually want them to know about me but it seems that basic human right has well and truly been taken from me and everyone else these days.
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It is up to you, but the question is WHY... Everyone seems to bang on about "well it's my business what I do and what I say", and the answer to that is "nobody cares", so why should you care what others thinks / say / do with that information if it's that banal?
    And to be fair I don't think a right to privacy extends to what you put out yourself onto a platform or public arena, so if you use a bank, telecoms system, computer or many other systems YOU are putting that information in there and giving it to SOMEONE, and it's likely you signed up to do so when you ticked "Yes, please have my information" to begin with

    No, not obvious really.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    On the other hand, why should Amazon know what we spoke about? There will be no such thing as privacy if we are not careful. Intrusion into our lives shouldn't become a default but something we can control as and when we choose to.

    And I don't totally trust organisations both private and public sector with my private information anyway.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Because you bought, set up and connected a device and agreed to share your details with that company? I do not and never will have a smart device of that nature in my house. Even the TV remote which comes with it is in a drawer without batteries. But the people who CHOOSE to have those devices have said "hey, have my data". If you don't want that, don't buy one of those devices.

    You do choose what services to use and when. Everytime you make that choice is on you, but again for me it's more a case of WHY does it matter. "Because it does" isn't really a good debate

    Well hopefully you trust your bank, mortgage provider, maybe employer etc. If not then that really is an issue as such things do tend to be better rather than worse. I mean things like Facebook and so on do tend to be "less moral" with what they do with your data, but then again they're not websites as much as data harvesters anyway, but people CHOOSE what they put on them
     
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  26. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    I am saddened every time i think about the public transport where i live in semi-urban Scotland compared to somewhere of similar population density in Germany for instance. I'm saddened by the appalling safety of road vehicles compared to public transport (There were 1,390 reported road deaths in the year ending June 2021 in the UK). I think that as populations grow to breaking point, people will get more and more used to having less space so we will become more accepting of public transport.
     
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  27. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Most things in life you have to sign up to because most things in life now require you to do it online in order to get anything done. I mean have you ever tried conducting anything the old fashioned way where you don’t need to sign up to get information, buy anything, or any kind of business done. Good luck with that one! Also whilst your right in one sense do you really think everyone has the time to read all the T&C’s and pages of guff whilst they are trying to do something which we all know they should do, and do you really think they aren’t being forced into signing up because if they don’t then today they aren’t going to be able to do anything or get any help with whatever at all. So yeah your right but the devious world today is totally geared up to rely on peoples ignorance, lack of time, people who don’t really have a choice of life choice in reality especially if they want to live in this so called modern world, etc etc.

    None of this makes it right or your argument really valid unless you agree with the overall unspoken of underhanded master plan of forcing the hands of people into giving their info which leads to overall control over everyone with regards to every aspect of their lives.

    I have a friend who drives HGV’s and he will tell you it’s the most watched, monitored, fined, job in the world and data of many different types is constantly gathered on him to be used however by those who want to use it. Multiply this with everyone else’s job in the world where this is common practice and your into serious control territory. Of course we could all refuse to go to work work but then again we all need to earn money to live. Over a barrel is the phrase that springs to mind.

    I’m just touching the tip of the iceberg here but yeah you and others should be VERY scared.
     
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  28. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Mr Heff.

    In terms of number of deaths via private owned cars vs say trains it is beyond question that the train is the safer option. I would also say the train is or at least can be a leisure transport mechanism with less stress, obviously commuting less so.

    One thing I would ask however is do you believe there is an acceptable number or deaths via car ownership or is it a zero sum game for you?
     
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  29. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    To everyone else, so far some very interesting ideas being shared.

    As rail fans of all ages it is interesting to see the wide ranging opinion and reaction to the idea of this thread and how it leaks over into other areas of life such as ownership in general vs renting items.

    I'm enjoying reading the discussion, good work everyone, sorry if some of you I have not individually replied to, sometimes it's just more interesting watching the conversation flow.
     
  30. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    I would say that if driving a car could be made as safe as taking the train, that would be acceptable for me. As long as a safer alternative exists, we should strive for it. I recently talked to an engineer who has worked in the mass transit sector who said that if cars were invented more recently, they would be clad in a buffer cage to meet comparable safety regulations for modern trains.
     
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  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    For me the train is fine for commuting if you buy a season ticket. But even with the rise in petrol prices taking the train on a long journey is just not financially beneficial. I can get to and from my sisters in South Wales on £30 to £40 of petrol and do the journey in two to two and a half hours. When I have taken the train in the past it cost over twice that of the car and required four different trains and took twice as long.

    Don't get me wrong, obviously I love trains and it is relaxing using them on a long journey but financially it is not worth it.

    If they have the choice of making public transport cheaper and more efficient or leaving public transport as it is but try and force people onto it by making car ownership more expensive and onerous I wonder which option they would choose.
     
  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I have never been forced to do anything by any person, company or government. I have signed or agreed to contracts with people that determine my actions with regards to those contracts - such as employment, marriage, terms of use etc - but my actions and activities are down to my choices.
    The only way in which I may be considered to be "forced" to do anything would be with regards to things like enforcement of laws or other articles which "inhibit my freedom", but these limits are usually there to either make things safer - things like speed limits, wearing of seatbelts or building controls; to stop people discriminating or acting against the interests of others - things like racism, bullying, grooming etc; or other articles or laws intended to avoid harm and protect either people or the environment - leaded petrol, building on green belt land etc

    I really cannot think of anything which "I cannot do" that is forced by others other than which involves someone else and I don't have their consent (there goes my dinner with Kirsten Dunst... dagnammit!)

    HGV and PCV drivers are very well monitored, and of course have to be compliant with a whole raft of laws because they're operating vehicles which are inherently dangerous, require high levels of control and concentration. That doesn't mean that this information is available to "anyone who wants to use it", especially in the EU where any personally identifiable information precludes such use and you can confidently take both the provider of the information and the user of the information to court for large sums.

    To be honest it sounds like paranoia to me. No information I give to any employer, service or government agency is currently being held against me and unless the UK or EU starts to condone torture or forced labour it's not likely to.
    Is data collected by employers and other agencies? Yes
    Should they be able to collect any information they like and sell it to whoever they like? No
    Is it up to the provider of the information (you) to check who you're giving what? Very much YES YES YES

    There's far to much "do you really think everyone has the time to read all the T&C’s and pages of guff...[/QUOTE] which people seem to think gets them out of their responsibilities. It doesn't. If you're willing to put your name, money, life etc in a box as acknowledgement then surely you should take the time to find out exactly what it is you're signing up for?
     
  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't tend to use devices like that either, I don't think I would ever have an Alexa. The phone is probably the most advanced device I use.

    Do I trust my bank, yes, except if there was a problem with the bank, like a leak it would almost certainly be accidental. I know I trust my employer as I would be the person to "leak" information anyway!

    I agree that we all should read T & C's when signing up for things and I, like millions of others are too reticent in doing so.
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Generally a car is as safe as the person using it and the other road users around you. Although with modern cars there are lots of safety systems now, ever cars which brake when someone cuts you up. Obviously driverless cars, if they happen will apparently be almost foolproof, however the thought of driverless cars feels me with dread as I actually enjoy driving.

    I use the train for work and if going into Birmingham and I have tried to cut down its use and walk more. However the car is just too convenient and I think most people, me included, who own a car will not want to give up car ownership completely.

    One of my hobbies is visiting and photographing country villages and churches, trying to do that on public transport would be a nightmare and I can't see even with the most efficient public transport systems that it is ever going to be better than the car.

    Obviously, it is only a hobby and many will argue not important but are people going to start doing less and having less "freedom" to do things, I doubt it very much.
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This really isn't the experience I know of. In the UK I believe there are many many tourist destinations which are "end of the line" and normally quite difficult to get to by public transport, or even not connected to the system at all (think much of South Wales, Cornwall, Dorset, West Wales, Scotland...)
    Added to that the point that public transport is very much centered around town and city centres (obviously, that's where most people are or want to go) so if you want to go somewhere else it can be quite stressful. As an example I could say "I want to go from Gravesend in Kent to Gloucester to see my family", and that's two trains and a tube
    However my actual journey is from DA12 5EL to GL14 1QG, which involves a long walk, bus, train, tube, train, another bus and then another long walk

    So maybe "good on paper, rubbish in practice" is a better descriptive?
     
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I've read an EULA in years...
     
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  37. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    I could paint another picture:

    You live in Reading in a block of flats near the station. You save up get a first class train ticket with a rail card on a advance to exeter for about £30 a head (assuming a young couple here). Spend a couple nights in Exeter a lovely cathedral city with the option of using the Riveria Line to take you to these rather nice tucked away little spots:

    Exton
    Lympstone
    Teignmouth/Shaldon
    Dartmouth via Paignton Steam Railway

    Head back to Reading for another £30 first class having spent out on a couple Devon day rovers and had a lovely time.

    Not saying the above is everyone's cup of tea but it is possible under some circumstances to use the trains for leisure and make it work
     
  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    In the days before Beeching and certainly before the 1950's you could almost get anywhere by train and even the most remotest parts of the UK would not have been that far from a station, however much of rural UK is now cut off.

    There are obviously many wonderful tourist spots still on or close to the rail network but what about those that aren't? One of my favourite areas is the Welsh borders, some of the towns like Ludlow are easily accessible by train, however if I want to go to Presteigne, Bishops Castle, Kington or New Radnor then it is totally inefficient. Much of that railway is long lost and unlikely ever to be rebuilt. Unless the bus service is made more frequent and efficient then the car is always going to be by far the easiest way to access these places.

    I know of people living in rural areas who see one bus a day if they are lucky. Unless the buses go back to being publically owned or maybe run on a not for profit basis and treated as an essential public service then that is not going to change.
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Only if you pick your destinations accordingly

    I mean fine if you want to go to Barry Island, less so The Mumbles
    Fine to go to Torquay but not Salcombe
    And the only parts of scotland's coast North of the central belt really served by rail are the east coast... Only three lines even go to the West and they're all terminating on the west rather than going up and down the coast.
     
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  40. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    I think the salcombe vs torquay debate is very fair.

    However I would argue that torquay has more square foot of beach compared to salcombe... but the exclusive nature of Salcombe vs torquay is very prevalent, especially having visited both.

    As for West Scotland, Morar and Araisaig are very pretty but I will give you the nod of the cap that I did the 5 hours from Glasgow Central in a 150/1 with one blocked loo onboard to get there and at times the experience does start to dwindle.

    Still I stand by my orginial example of reading to exeter and some devon day rovers as a good all round treat whilst also giving you the credit of a very reasoned counter
     
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  41. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    When you say very scared do you mean of organisations like the WEF? - which have some form of moral code to work to albeit you could argue underpinned by big business

    Or

    Are you talking about a more clandestine multi government operation?

    Scared bit of a strong word but interested how deep you think this goes
     
  42. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I wonder what beeching would do with our current railway situation. Tear it down further or bring it back a bit... there is the famous photo of him on a preserved railway not long after he closed it which always tickles..
     
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  43. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    It is true that most road collisions are the result of negligence and reckless driving, but that isn't something that is going to go away. There will always be a large number of people who drive in an unsafe way in the world. So with that said, yes, the car is theoretically quite safe, but in practice with human beings... not so much. On the subject of driverless/driver assisted cars, there's alot to talk about economically but my thoughts are that it is damage limitation and not a solution.

    The car is a luxury privilege and will always be superior to traveling with other people. But as myself and everyone else who has replied to this thread grow old and die, a new generation of people who have lived in smaller houses, with less disposable income will become the majority. And i believe this is when cars will truly be put on the shelf to collect dust in their filters.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Is a car a luxury privilege though? You can still buy a car for £500, certainly £1,000, if you wish which is not a huge amount. A small car can be economical and low on insurance. My car, admittedly a classic car, cost £500 plus £400 getting it on the road and costs £120 a year on classic car insurance. Even it's fuel economy isn't bad for a 1600cc engine if you are not heavy footed.

    If I didn't have a car and tried to live my life by using the train and the bus, I would have to stop doing a lot of things (all my organ playing for a start), and trips to see family and friends would end up costing me a lot more than they do when using my car. The only advantage I can see in using the train over the car is commuting and even that is getting harder to justify as the cost of season tickets keeps rising (although it is still a fair bit cheaper than driving to work) and frankly the service on my local line is no better than it was 20 years ago, except the class 150's have been replied with class 172's, and I wouldn't even class them as better.

    From what I can see by the amount of young drivers on the road the current generation isn't any less keen on the car than my generation. I suppose time will tell.
     
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  45. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree, we are at least another half century away from being able to almost fully rely on public transport to get us around. My point is that with the amount of support sustainable projects have been gaining from young people especially, it is inevitable that personal vehicles will be ditched. When i said the car is a luxury, I didn't necessarily mean financially (although they can be too expensive for some people for various reasons). Having your own personal vehicle is an incredible luxury when compared to people in poorer countries and has been proved to be completely environmentally unsustainable. These factors in my opinion make it a luxury.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes I see what you mean and yes driving needs to become more environmentally sustainable, maybe many of todays young or their young will decide cars are not ethically viable. Personally I don't think electric cars are the future and are not as clean as we are told they are.

    I think in time you are likely correct that there will be less reliance on personal cars, although I think there will still be a use for them, but maybe we won't own them but summon one when we want one, probably powered by hydrogen.

    How ironic will it be though, if in this great age of technology, we end up going back to the 19th century and travelling less and visiting less of the UK for example because cars end up becoming persona non-grata and the public transport system never catches up?

    Certainly a lot of work needs to be done on public transport in 50 years, as it is no where near good enough. I have to say though that the West Midlands has a good bus service and it is quite well interconnected with the new light rail lines which have been built and are being built and there has been a lot of new rolling stock on the local railways.

    I trialled commuting by bus a few years ago for three months. I experienced drunk people falling asleep on me, abusive teenagers playing music at loud decibels, abusive men shouting at their partners and vice versa, people who clearly hadn't been near a shower in this millenium nearly sitting on my lap and more, which all meant that I soon went back to the train. Plus the fact, due to traffic the two buses home sometimes took two hours, the train 17 minutes plus 30 mins walking and the car 40 minutes. So I am afraid I rarely get on a bus nowadays.
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I can’t understand why they insist on 20 MPH rather than the more practical 25 MPH as used in America. Otherwise it is going to end up with loads of vehicles revving around in 2nd gear, hardly good for the environment or the green agenda. There are a few 20 zones in Swindon and people tend to drive closer to 30 anyway.

    And to be brutally honest, if you ended up going under the wheels, it’s going to hurt at 20 or 30 MPH.
     
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  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    European cars were re-geared years ago under EU regs so that if you stick the car in a gear one higher than the number of tens in the speed they'll almost idle and stick to it, so sticking in 3rd and just touching the accellerator will maintain 20 without loads of effort. Doesn't help in stop start traffic as it provides no "grunt", but that's the way it is supposed to be (According to my recent speed awareness course)

    And the second part IS the point. It's not just to make "most normal people" drive at 20, it's to make the speeders come down closer to 30 rather than 40
     
  49. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Car leasing and car sharing will be fundamental, if you live on a city, and can live your day to day life only using public transportation but you need a car every year or every few months to do a road trip for example car sharing makes a lot of sense. One of the youtube channels I linked advocates that unless you use a car to commute to work, you are better off not owning a car (that of course requires good car sharing/leasing options to be available)


    It's hard to say and I'm not knowledgeable enough to be certain, but to me SEEMS like younger people are GENERALLY more forward thinking, I don't think it's a generational thing like boomers vs zoomers, I think it's just part of growing up. I (20 years old currently) will probably be the same when I am older.

    I couldn't agree more.

    There is so much more we should do to combat climate change, cars vs public transport is only "one front".

    IMO the other big things that we should tackle are electricity generation, and Right to Repair, it's disgraceful how companies are aggressively lobbying and generally try to convince people why THEM, AND ONLY THEM should be able to repair YOUR product that YOU OWN. The worst and biggest offender that comes to mind is Apple.

    I highly recommend to check out this YouTube channel: Louis Rossman

    Also let's not even begin to talk about planned obsolescence and all the effort those companies go to make you feel like you NEED the latest product. Honestly, out of all the people that have the latest flagship phone, how many do you think ACTUALLY need all the functionalities and better performance compared to a mid range or older model.

    I hate with passion this culture of buying everything just a status symbol, which leads to a lot of perfectly fine products end in the landfill just because "it's not fashionable anymore"... crazy how apple won't include a charger for "environmental purposes" and then produces a monitor with a hardwired cable that can only be removed by Apple themselves that would only end up telling you "the repair would be so expensive you are better off just buying a new one". Rant over.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  50. You could say it's the reverse of the world wide plot to move us from public transport to cars. But then every time I've traveled to London Victoria in rush hour I'd hazard a guess that the majority do use public transport anyway.

    Then southeastern were recently trying to close my local branch line! And arriva busses have pulled out of the area too!

    I wonder if the government and public transport firms are on the same page?

    I'm a petrol head I love cars but at the same time there's far to many cars for my liking. Roads heavily congested, parking is a nightmare let alone expensive, my neighbours numbering 2 have 4 cars parked along my road same with all the other neighbours!

    If you live in a city or town there's always the train, if you live in a village or rural area then it's back to walking I guess. Or horse and cart.
     
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